Opinion on Pirated Apps

[dangerz]

I'm an app developer (just started, nothing amazing).. the first app I've ever sold on my own though was through the app store. I just thought I'd share my opinion on the whole application cracking/piracy scene.

First off, I see it as a completely separate entity than jailbreaking the phones. Those phones are ours, not AT&Ts or Apples and I see no reason why they feel they can limit our use. I'm not renting the device, I purchased it.

As for cracking/pirating the apps.. I noticed a pretty big hit to sales once my app got cracked. It's only $.99 and it's not like I sell a lot anyway, so it was easy to see the difference. I guess my question is why do people still pirate the app if it's so cheap? I'm not claiming to be a messiah of software. I've also pirated applications before, but my reasoning was usually that I couldn't afford the software that I needed. When I had the money, I had no problems paying for what I wanted. I felt that if someone were to put a lot of time into something, there's no reason not to repay them if it wasn't unreasonable.

The reason I'm even caring is that I'm working on a multiplayer game. I don't agree at all with DRM and have no intentions of implementing it. One thing I'm worried about though is if people start pirating the app, I won't be bringing in enough money to keep maintaining the servers. What can I do, besides keeping the app as affordable as I can, to entice users to actually pay? I have no problems with the initial piracy to check the game out. I'll even be releasing a free version to give people a general idea of the game because I think the fact that you want to try something before purchasing it is a very valid reason to pirate. I'm just wondering what approaches would help encourage people to purchase the app, rather than just play it for free? Clearly they have money considering they spent at minimum $200 to purchase the device it's on.

Any information you could give me would be great.. Also if this isn't allowed to be spoken about, I apologize and feel free to lock :)

Roy

[armaankhan]

I think the thing about piracy is that it's one of those things you just have to live with. People will always opt to get something for free rather than pay for it, no matter how low the price is. That's just human nature, and it has nothing to do with how much money one makes. I know people who make six figure salaries who won't pay five bucks to rent a movie because they can download it for free over torrents.

As a dev, your best option (other than draconian DRM, which will eventually get cracked anyway) is to just hope that enough people like your app well enough to pay for it.

[s0mah]

If the game is going to be priced at $.99, then release it free with ads.

[dangerz]

If the game is going to be priced at $.99, then release it free with ads.

Actually I'm not a big fan of tge advertising I've seen on the iPhone.

I also run Pwned.com on the side. We used to have banner ads on the site in certain spots. We thought that it took away from the site though and didn't integrate well, so we took out as many as we could without breaking the contract with our ad company. Once the contract is done, we plan on removing the rest.

The ads I've seen in most games have been really crappy. The game looks really nice and then there's a banner across the bottom that doesnt fit at all. What we did is worked with the individual ad people and got ads that work with the site.. something that integrated with the header so it didn't look completely off from the site. If you go to our site now, it looks much, much cleaner and our users are a lot happier.

Maybe I can figure something out where I can integrate them into the game.. just enough that you notice 'em, but not enough to take away from the gameplay.

[starjimstar]

If the game is going to be priced at $.99, then release it free with ads.

+1
That is probably your most favorable solution if you are really taking a hit due to piracy.

http://www.admob.com/

[Eli]

You guys are seriously overestimating the amount of money you make including advertisements in a game. Generally speaking, the only one making any money on advertising is the company that is hosting the ad service.

Granted, some money is better than none... But to say if you are going to sell something for 99 cents you should just give it away with ads is a terrible business decision

http://www.pinchmedia.com/appstore-secrets/ Start at slide 23.

[dangerz]

You guys are seriously overestimating the amount of money you make including advertisements in a game. Generally speaking, the only one making any money on advertising is the company that is hosting the ad service.

Granted, some money is better than none... But to say if you are going to sell something for 99 cents you should just give it away with ads is a terrible business decision

http://www.pinchmedia.com/appstore-secrets/ Start at slide 23.

I never put my faith in full ads. Always felt that they just got in the way and never provided anything useful. Maybe we can come up with a better way of integrating advertising into the game without burdening the user.

[starjimstar]

You guys are seriously overestimating the amount of money you make including advertisements in a game. Generally speaking, the only one making any money on advertising is the company that is hosting the ad service.

Granted, some money is better than none... But to say if you are going to sell something for 99 cents you should just give it away with ads is a terrible business decision

http://www.pinchmedia.com/appstore-secrets/ Start at slide 23.

I suppose it depends how much Roy is making to begin with. Maybe an add supported version would be the way to go. What is your app anyway, Roy?

[Zincous]

I suppose it depends how much Roy is making to begin with. Maybe an add supported version would be the way to go. What is your app anyway, Roy?

Traffic lights: http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=10107

[dangerz]

I suppose it depends how much Roy is making to begin with. Maybe an add supported version would be the way to go. What is your app anyway, Roy?

I wrote Traffic Lights.. it's not a huge app, it was my first. This is for another app I'm working on which has a backend server to it. I'm just worried about being able to provide a solid server for the people that paid -vs- having to also work with people who pirated.

I want to try to avoid what happened to Stardock pretty much :)

[dangerz]

Traffic lights: http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=10107

Heh thanks :) I didn't want to seem like I was pimping out my stuff, so I wanted to avoid whoring myself out haha.

[Zincous]

In sky burger, and car jack streets they have been able to tell the number of pirated games vs paid games....

If you could do that, can't you stop access to the servers from people with pirated versions?

[robertf224]

Just felt i needed to point this out. You said you've pirated before because you couldn't afford it. People who pirate things all have their own reasons to try to justify it. I just don't see how you are wondering why people pirate when you do it yourself. I do think it is dumb that people pirate apps that only cost 99 cents, but I think it's even more unfair to pirate some sort of software that costs significantly more than that.

[dangerz]

Just felt i needed to point this out. You said you've pirated before because you couldn't afford it. People who pirate things all have their own reasons to try to justify it. I just don't see how you are wondering why people pirate when you do it yourself. I do think it is dumb that people pirate apps that only cost 99 cents, but I think it's even more unfair to pirate some sort of software that costs significantly more than that.
When I was younger, I wanted to get into web design and had no graphics programs. I was 14 so I obviously didn't have the money for it.

Now that I'm 26, I haven't pirated an app in a long time because I can afford it. I purchased Photoshop when I started making money and haven't pirated anything in a long time.

I understand the people that pirate software because they can't afford it.. I don't get the people that do it when they can.

[Eli]

GIMP always has been free and notepad.exe or a similar text editor comes with any operating system. :P

[s0mah]

In sky burger, and car jack streets they have been able to tell the number of pirated games vs paid games....

If you could do that, can't you stop access to the servers from people with pirated versions?

I'm fairly sure that they are just doing the math to determine this.

(amount playing)-(amount apps sold)= amount of cracked ipa's.

[dangerz]

GIMP always has been free and notepad.exe or a similar text editor comes with any operating system. :P
I've actually never used anything except notepad, Kwrite or notepad++ to design my websites :) I even used nano a few times.

As for GIMP, you should've seen it in its early days. The UI was terrible and I could never figure it out.. it never compared to Photoshop. It could still use lots of touching up but I have Photoshop now so I don't need it.

In sky burger, and car jack streets they have been able to tell the number of pirated games vs paid games....

If you could do that, can't you stop access to the servers from people with pirated versions?
I'm not sure how they figure that out. I'll have to research it.

[s0mah]

GIMP always has been free and notepad.exe or a similar text editor comes with any operating system. :P

lmao

Gimp sucks, and I bet that 99% of shop home users have stolen copies. That being said, every single computer user (with the means) has pirated something at some time. If you claim that you haven't, it's because you're probably on a Mac (which has nothing worth pirating anyways).

[starjimstar]

As long as we are plugging free software; Smultron (http://www.tuppis.com/smultron/)! NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/)! MegaManEffect (http://www.freemacware.com/megamaneffect)!

[PointOfLight]

I understand the people that pirate software because they can't afford it.. I don't get the people that do it when they can.

I don't understand this at all. You're saying theft is okay as long as the circumstances warrant it? That sure would make for some interesting laws. The reality is, if you can't afford it you live without it. You learn this real quickly when you start having kids...

As for GIMP, you should've seen it in its early days. The UI was terrible and I could never figure it out.. it never compared to Photoshop. It could still use lots of touching up but I have Photoshop now so I don't need it.

The UI in GIMP might have been terrible, but at least it was an alternative. And I'm sure there were other applications besides GIMP as well. The point is, just because you couldn't afford the program that you wanted, it doesn't justify the act of piracy. This is exactly why piracy is still so rampant, because everyone that copies software manages to justify in their minds why it's okay to copy the software instead of paying for it. If even developers can justify it, why shouldn't the rest of the population?

[CDubby94]

Anybody else feel the piracy problem in the app store is growing and growing?

I'm sure lots of devs are really fed up with it. Look at Car Jack Streets, only one third of their user base actually bought the game. That's discouraging, especially with a five dollar game. That's a lot of money lost.

You can't help but think that if this gets much worse, the app store could take a serious hit because devs will not be making enough money to continue to develop games.

[starjimstar]

I don't understand this at all. You're saying theft is okay as long as the circumstances warrant it? That sure would make for some interesting laws. The reality is, if you can't afford it you live without it. You learn this real quickly when you start having kids...

You may have missed it, but he said;

When I was younger, I wanted to get into web design and had no graphics programs. I was 14 so I obviously didn't have the money for it.

So if you consider the young offenders act an interesting law, we have very different ideas about entertainment. :p

As a side note; both British Columbia and Washington have laws to prohibit hunting Sasquatch (or Big Foot) and also detail protocol should somebody actually kill one. Now those are interesting laws.

[PointOfLight]

Anybody else feel the piracy fad is growing and growing?

I'm sure lots of devs are really fed up with it. Look at Car Jack Streets, only one third of their user base actually bought the game. That's discouraging, especially with a five dollar game. That's a lot of money lost.

You can't help but think that if this gets much worse, the app store could take a serious hit because devs will not be making enough money to continue to develop games.

The piracy problem certainly keeps getting worse, but I don't think it's a fad. I think people have come to view it as a way of life. Fads tend to fade over time, but I think people have been pirating software ever since there was something worth pirating, and I don't think it's going to go away any time soon.

[CDubby94]

anybody else feel the piracy problem in the app store is growing and growing?

I'm sure lots of devs are really fed up with it. Look at car jack streets, only one third of their user base actually bought the game. That's discouraging, especially with a five dollar game. That's a lot of money lost.

You can't help but think that if this gets much worse, the app store could take a serious hit because devs will not be making enough money to continue to develop games.

fixed!

[dangerz]

I don't understand this at all. You're saying theft is okay as long as the circumstances warrant it? That sure would make for some interesting laws. The reality is, if you can't afford it you live without it. You learn this real quickly when you start having kids...
That's a strawman argument.

I'm not saying theft is ok.. there was no chance of me ever purchasing Photoshop when I was younger. I did not make them lose anything. If anything, they gained a sale because I learned Photoshop and went on to buy it + upgrades.

Anyway, the debate of piracy isn't what I intended. I just wanted to know if anyone had any advice on enticing users to purchase the app as opposed to pirating it.

[PointOfLight]

You may have missed it...

So if you consider the young offenders act an interesting law, we have very different ideas about entertainment. :p

I didn't miss what he said about being 14 and not being able to afford the software (which is still no excuse for pirating), and I'm really not sure what your point about differing ideas about entertainment is. What I meant by my comment was that we would have very interesting laws (that quite honestly would probably be really hard to sort out) if we started saying that stealing was wrong except for.... That was my whole point.

As a side note; both British Columbia and Washington have laws to prohibit hunting Sasquatch (or Big Foot) and also detail protocol should somebody actually kill one. Now those are interesting laws.

I'll have to keep this in mind the next time I have the urge to hunt Bigfoot :D

[LBG]

Anybody else feel the piracy fad is growing and growing?

I'm sure lots of devs are really fed up with it. Look at Car Jack Streets, only one third of their user base actually bought the game. That's discouraging, especially with a five dollar game. That's a lot of money lost.

You can't help but think that if this gets much worse, the app store could take a serious hit because devs will not be making enough money to continue to develop games.

I totally agree with you. Even paying just £0.59 ($0.99) for an app, supports the developer. Without supporting the developers, the app store won't grow. While others don't care about ripping off developers, at least I can sleep easily knowing that I have paid a developer for his time and effort. I am beginning to believe more and more in karma, lol. I used to download cracked apps and I used to feel bad about it and something bad would usually happen.

[starjimstar]

I didn't miss what he said about being 14 and not being able to afford the software (which is still no excuse for pirating), and I'm really not sure what your point about differing ideas about entertainment is. What I meant by my comment was that we would have very interesting laws (that quite honestly would probably be really hard to sort out) if we started saying that stealing was wrong except for.... That was my whole point.

And my point is that the "except for" you refer to does already exist. He would be protected (to an extent) by the Young Offenders Act or even the act passed in 2003 to replace the YOA, known as the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Wikipedia lists the following information;

"
Sentences under the YCJA include things such as community service, counselling, and reimbursing their victim for damages. Offenders aged 12-14 are generally not allowed adult sentences, with only exceptions for serious or repeat offences. Adult sentences are usually only reserved for offenders over the age of 14.
"

[PointOfLight]

And my point is that the "except for" you refer to does already exist. He would be protected (to an extent) by the Young Offenders Act or even the act passed in 2003 to replace the YOA, known as the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Wikipedia lists the following information;

"
Sentences under the YCJA include things such as community service, counselling, and reimbursing their victim for damages. Offenders aged 12-14 are generally not allowed adult sentences, with only exceptions for serious or repeat offences. Adult sentences are usually only reserved for offenders over the age of 14.
"

But this isn't saying that the offender can get away with what they did. It's just saying that their punishment will be different.

[starjimstar]

Furthermore, there are sections of the Canadian Copyright Act that make exception for reproduction without motive of financial gain. I don't think Roy would meet the requirements for said exceptions, but exceptions do exist.

[dangerz]

Heh, this has veered way off of what I had intended.

[PointOfLight]

That's a strawman argument.

I'm not saying theft is ok.. there was no chance of me ever purchasing Photoshop when I was younger. I did not make them lose anything. If anything, they gained a sale because I learned Photoshop and went on to buy it + upgrades.

Anyway, the debate of piracy isn't what I intended. I just wanted to know if anyone had any advice on enticing users to purchase the app as opposed to pirating it.

The only way to entice people into purchasing your software instead of pirating it is to "sell" it for the big fat price tag of 0. The reality is that 90% of people that pirate really have no intentions of buying the software they pirate, even though they claim that at some point they will. I know, because I've been down that road. From that perspective, I do admire the fact that you did eventually purchase Photoshop, though I still don't feel the ends justified the means. But, I wasn't perfect when I was younger either, and so if I sit here now and say "you shouldn't do that", you or someone else will (or in the case of this thread already has) come back and say "but you probably have too".

Suffice it to say that until you can convince the person that's copying software that it's actually wrong to copy software under any circumstances (including affordability) they will continue to copy software. After all, even at only 99 cents, I'm sure someone will come up with something "better" to spend their dollar on if they can get your software for free.

[starjimstar]

But this isn't saying that the offender can get away with what they did. It's just saying that their punishment will be different.

True. And I would like to be clear that I am not supporting piracy. I am only playing devil's advocate. The issue is just not as black & white as you might think. I have to get back to real life now. PM me if you would like to debate further. Ciao people. :)

[PointOfLight]

Heh, this has veered way off of what I had intended.

Yeah, regardless of intentions, it's usually not a good idea to start a public thread that even mentions piracy. That's one of those topics that everyone is way too opinionated on (myself included).

[dangerz]

Yeah, regardless of intentions, it's usually not a good idea to start a public thread that even mentions piracy. That's one of those topics that everyone is way too opinionated on (myself included).
I think a thread talking about what devs can do to entice users not to pirate could be very beneficial to the entire community. From a user perspective, it gives the users what they want. From a dev perspective, it pays the bills :)

It's a shame we can't do it without getting into a debate on the merits of piracy.

[Eli]

There's not really anything wrong with debating piracy, it's just one of those things that get people so wound up that each side eventually snowballs in to using larger and larger strawman arguments until someone eventually likens something to Hitler and loses their argument in the process.

Then it just devolves in to flaming.

Sooo... if we can keep the strawmans to a minimum, I'd like to think everything will be alright. ;)

[Mindfield]

I don't see how there's any "right" side to piracy. Piracy is wrong and illegal no matter how you slice it. The problem is that the pirates have a tendency to try and justify it by inventing degrees of wrongness -- it's not as wrong to steal software from a big bad corporation compared to a small indie developer, or it's not as wrong to steal a $1 app compared to a $10 app, as if it's okay to engage in it so long as there's something worse that someone else is doing. Then there are always the "the app store isn't in my country, I deserve apps!" argument, the "too expensive" argument, the "I paid a lot for my device I should get things for free!" argument, the "It's not really stealing because the developer doesn't lose anything because there's an infinite quantity of copies that can be made," and the rest of the absurdities. I think I've probably seen them all when it comes to App Store piracy.

But PointOfLight is right. The vast majority of pirates have no intention of buying, so they can't be counted as lost sales because they never had the potential to be sales in the first place. Here it becomes an issue of principle, of developers not wanting the pirates to have access to their software when they have no right to it. That's sort of where I fall in the argument. It isn't the money -- there's virtually no loss to get upset about -- it's about someone deriving some enjoyment out of my hard work when they don't deserve to. If I baked a cake, and some stranger walked in off the street, cut himself a slice, tipped his hat and left, I'd be just as annoyed. He contributed nothing and gave nothing back. He just took it, and he had no right to do that. Never mind that software is an infinitely large cake. It's the principle.

[s0mah]

I don't see how there's any "right" side to piracy. Piracy is wrong and illegal no matter how you slice it.

Illegal? Yup.

Wrong? That's subjective.

I defy you to honestly state that you've never pirated a single piece of software.

Seriously, how many PC users are running an expired copy of WinRAR?

tbh, this issue bores me. it's just all of the self-righteousness that has drawn me into this conversation for a quick lol.

ps.

How fast would you crusaders /msg me if I were to theoretically mention that I have excess what, waffles, bitme, hdbits, demonoid (lol), invites?

[Tennisking1o1]

I didn't read through this whole thread, but I will comment on your original post.

Honestly, this is a problem any App Store devs are facing and it's the reason why Apple doesn't like Jailbroken iPhones. The App Store could be ruined by piracy, much like the PSP game community is being wrecked right now. No developer wants to develop for the PSP when they see the astonishing pirating rates.

No matter what you do, some dishonest and non-law abiding people will be searching sites that have cracked apps and download your app for free. There's really nothing to stop it unless someone shuts down the sites that host cracked apps, which is very unlikely. It's a horrible issue and it's just another way a handful (More than a handful in this case, I guess) of people could ruin something great for the rest of the population

[PointOfLight]

I think a thread talking about what devs can do to entice users not to pirate could be very beneficial to the entire community. From a user perspective, it gives the users what they want. From a dev perspective, it pays the bills :)

It's a shame we can't do it without getting into a debate on the merits of piracy.

I think the divergence of this thread proves a sad point, however, in that no one really knows what to do to dissuade piracy. The reality is that there's not much more a developer can do than (1) develop the best game they know how, and (2) offer it at a reasonable price to the end user. If this isn't enough to keep someone from copying instead of paying, then they'll probably never pay anyway.

[jchampl]

hey dangerz,

i think once the game is "complete" things will turn around, let's get things revamped and then hopefully this will be of little concern. :)

[Mindfield]

Illegal? Yup.

Wrong? That's subjective.

I defy you to honestly state that you've never pirated a single piece of software.

I never said I didn't. But I've also been on both sides of that fence: As one who has pirated software, and as one who has developed software that has been pirated. However, I know why I pirated software: It was easy, there was negligible risk, and I didn't care. But I never once fooled myself into thinking I had any right to it. I knew it was wrong. Having grown up, and even having developed my own stuff, not to mention grew a scruffy patch of conscience and empathy for developers, I now prefer to buy the stuff I like and want.

I would instead defy you to explain what's right about it.

Seriously, how many PC users are running an expired copy of WinRAR?

Heh... I got mine free when they had a promotion a year or two back. It was free for something like 72 hours and had to be registered within that time. No free updates though. Didn't really matter, I still use it. :)

[GatorDeb]

There are two simple reasons why pirating is getting worse.

1. Availability of devices able to run pirated apps. The Touch 2G wasn't able to be JB until just recently. And it isn't that long that JB appeared in the first place. With 2Gs able to be JB, the number of devices in existence that are able to run pirated apps just exploded exponentially.

2. The process gets simpler and more widely known. I'm sure the process now to pirate an app has to be easier than the process when it started. All the way from how to break the encryption of an app to how to distribute it to how to load it into the device. Better and better processes come out that make each step easier.

So the main reason app piracy is expanding is because more devices can run them and it gets easier to do it.

[s0mah]

Heh... I got mine free when they had a promotion a year or two back. It was free for something like 72 hours and had to be registered within that time. No free updates though. Didn't really matter, I still use it. :)

Now I'll casually move my goalposts.

Doesn't piracy create exposure for software that would otherwise be forgotten? I mean, wouldn't a phenomenal product draw in pirates and encourage sales?

For example, I have the means to download any album, from any artist, from roughly the past 50 years. I can get almost anything in FLAC, and I can easily obtain prereleases (generally several weeks in advance). Despite this, I end up purchasing 85% of what I steal- generally discarding the rest after a few listens. By doing this I have contributed a lot of dough to unheard and unpopular bands.

Who wins in the above situation?

[GatorDeb]

Now I'll casually move my goalposts.

Doesn't piracy create exposure for software that would otherwise be forgotten? I mean, wouldn't a phenomenal product draw in pirates and encourage sales?

For example, I have the means to download any album, from any artist, from roughly the past 50 years. I can get almost anything in FLAC, and I can easily obtain prereleases (generally several weeks in advance). Despite this, I end up purchasing 85% of what I steal- generally discarding the rest after a few listens. By doing this I have contributed a lot of dough to unheard and unpopular bands.

Who wins in the above situation?
You can do this without pirating with services like Napster. I pay $15 a month and can listen to anything I want and then just buy what I like. The $15 actually saves me a ton of money and I buy mostly single songs I like rather than the whole album.

[s0mah]

You can do this without pirating with services like Napster. I pay $15 a month and can listen to anything I want and then just buy what I like. The $15 actually saves me a ton of money and I buy mostly single songs I like rather than the whole album.

No.

Napster is of no real use. That service does not offer the depth of music that I'm looking for.

[starjimstar]

You can do this without pirating with services like Napster. I pay $15 a month and can listen to anything I want and then just buy what I like. The $15 actually saves me a ton of money and I buy mostly single songs I like rather than the whole album.

Is that what Napster is these days? In that case, Canada's copyright laws regarding music are like a giant Napster. Because of the blank media levy, we are allowed to download any music we want without purchase (because it is assumed that we have already paid for it (in a sense.))

[GatorDeb]

This is how Napster works. They have 2 subscription models - PC only and PC and MP3 player (for a higher fee, what I have). As long as you pay your monthly fee, you can play what you downloaded (it's DRM'd.). Once you stop paying the monthly fee, that music you downloaded won't play anymore. You can buy songs to keep for a buck each. Lots of times I'll hear something and think I want the whole album and then just end up buying a couple of songs, so it saves you a ton of money.

[starjimstar]

This is how Napster works. They have 2 subscription models - PC only and PC and MP3 player (for a higher fee, what I have). As long as you pay your monthly fee, you can play what you downloaded (it's DRM'd.). Once you stop paying the monthly fee, that music you downloaded won't play anymore. You can buy songs to keep for a buck each. Lots of times I'll hear something and think I want the whole album and then just end up buying a couple of songs, so it saves you a ton of money.

Hmm... I am not a fan of DRM. I don't even like the fact that apps are DRM encrypted. I will stick to buying my music on vinyl. :cool:

[GatorDeb]

The ones you buy are NOT DRMd, just the subscription ones. This is so that people don't download the whole store for free :D

So you can listen to the DRM ones while you pay monthly (as much as you want) and then you pay to strip the DRM for the ones you want to keep.

[starjimstar]

The ones you buy are NOT DRMd, just the subscription ones. This is so that people don't download the whole store for free :D

So you can listen to the DRM ones while you pay monthly (as much as you want) and then you pay to strip the DRM for the ones you want to keep.

Well that is not so bad. I don't tend to buy mp3s anyway though. It doesn't seem right to be charged full price for compressed music. The exception to that rule is when I am looking for something obscure, esoteric or just plain hard to find. I will cave in for the sake of convenience.

[sak3r]

The solution is actually very simple.

I think most are missing the point, he said he has an app that's been pirated and that's just the way things go, but he's planning to release a multiplayer app and people with cracked versions sucking up bandwith will probably make him lose money (as opposed to not making money).

So regardless if those persons would actually buy the app if they couldn't get it for free, he can't afford to let them play on a cracked version.

That simple solution is:
Release the app for free, and handle the payments on your own server:
people login either inside the app or on a pc, and pay with the creditcard (or paypal) to register and play.

If your app actually get's popular you'll probably get people sharing accounts, but it would be a simple matter of banning any account that's used by two people simultaneity.
If you end up banning someone that, say got his password stolen, ask him to prove it's his, by his e-mail and make him to change his password..

To prevent things even further you can lock accounts to imeis, people can still email you to change the imei lock if they change phone but for the most part you'll have a clean server.

Hacking is still a possibility but to have people bothering with it your app should be popular enough to keep the original risk of not making enough money away..

[Axl Lowe]

I despise ads in games, so I would rather pay 0,99 USD for a game, making sure that most of the money goes directly to the developer, than have it free with ads and have much of it go to an ad company.

[manolis]

ok. I believe there are a few ways to LOWER the affect of piracy. there is no way you will ever get rid of piracy. everyones done it once in their life and if you havent that would be pretty hard to believe. have you ever downloaded a song from limewire or some other P2P program? exactly. The thing that Apple could do if they really wanted to simmer down piracy is if they give the jailbreak community what they want. For example: allow different THEMES. This is huge. i have tons of friends that jailbroke their phones just to have themes. then they realized that either they are spending to much on apps or they just dont feel like using their money and turn to cracked apps. its not like they cant afford a $1 game. I go to a private school and maybe 40% of the people their have an iphone. they can definity afford the games that are being made. If apple gave people what they wanted and not be so stingy they might not have a need to jailbreak. not only is it a hassle to do it everytime an update comes out, but we all know it has its problems. The only other way i see this coming to an end is if apple made the ideal iphone that was vitually unjailbreakable, and as we all know that is not gonna happen. maybe it will take some time, but in the end all things come to the point where they will be taken advantage of. on the iphone 3g and ipod touch 2g, apple tried to make them as unjailbreakable as they could. it took the dev team a couple months to break it but if Apple could have an idevice that could last a year without the public being able to jailbreak that would be perfect. sure the previous iphone users will be able to pirate apps but the new ones would not be. by a years time a new iphone would come out, and the cycle continues. I am currently jailbroken and always will be. I used to use crack apps but do not anymore. I felt bad for the indie developers but also people like tag games who sit there watching 2/3 of the amount of people playing their game using a cracked version. thats devastating. you put so much work into an app and then you lose tons of sales for a great game. bottom line is: there will always be cracked apps, but for the iphone, its just to easy. As the creators said, "so easy, your grandma can even do it." the sad thing is its probably true.

sorry for going on and on and on and on. :D

[jchampl]

Release the app for free, and handle the payments on your own server:
people login either inside the app or on a pc, and pay with the creditcard (or paypal) to register and play.


violates apples policy.

since the payments can not be authorized by itunes, this is not possible. apple also views it as a way to get around their seller fees, since you wouldn't be paying their commission.

the biggest problem is, a person like you could create an application and have people pay to register it, and then you are a con artist and use his financial information, since you are sending it to a non secure server.

apple doesn't allow any pay to play games besides ones that are bought off itunes. this is the only way they can promise the apple financial "safety."

[sumiguchi]

I released Anomaly about on may 10th and it was available cracked for download about 1 hour after it hit the apps store. So far, sales are approximately 1% of the number of downloads for the cracked version! Yeesh! :(

(That said - getting a cracked app is so easy that its worth to download and try pretty much any game - so you can't count them all as lost sales... but heartbreaking none the less!)

[Stykman]

I released Anomaly about on may 10th and it was available cracked for download about 1 hour after it hit the apps store. So far, sales are approximately 1% of the number of downloads for the cracked version! Yeesh! :(

(That said - getting a cracked app is so easy that its worth to download and try pretty much any game - so you can't count them all as lost sales... but heartbreaking none the less!)

same with car jack streets except it was there within minutes
will probably happen with zenonia, rolando 2 and peggle and any other future game

[Adams Immersive]

I have some great multiplayer game ideas--and other games that don't HAVE to be multiplayer but would be really fun that way.

I have no plans to proceed with those concepts for now. I'm working on a single-player game instead, and may or may not ever get to my multiplayer projects (first-person shooters and others).

Piracy is the reason. The risk that I might spend lots of money on servers so pirates can play is scaring me off. Single player is less risky.

Sad to say.

So I'm really hoping Apple introduces some stricter solutions. Intrusive and offensive though they may be to me as a gamer... I want myself--and others--to be able to MAKE great games with less fear of piracy. I do think Apple would be up the challenge of reducing (not eliminating) piracy by means they haven't tried yet. Especially for multiplayer, where a remote server is involved. (Blacklisting maybe?)

[Shokz]

I do think Apple would be up the challenge of reducing (not eliminating) piracy by means they haven't tried yet. Especially for multiplayer, where a remote server is involved. (Blacklisting maybe?)

Interesting you should say that - I go to the 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩 forums every so often and i saw a topic about Beejive (an instant messanger) and with a certain version when they connected to the server it blacklisted their IP addresses, of course a workaround was found relatively quickly, but all the people that had already been blacklisted couldn't unblacklist themselves and could therefore not use it again (if they bought it, they could send an email with proof of purchase to whoever the developer was and they'd remove that person from the blacklist). Maybe you should look it up?

[sumiguchi]

Actually I saw some threads on the official dev forums where people referenced to methods to determine if the game was cracked but I haven't really looked into it yet.

[jchampl]

the fact is, there isn't a single method of protection that hasn't been cracked yet. sure it may take a day or two extra before someone patches the protection but it wont stop anyone.

[Adams Immersive]

the fact is, there isn't a single method of protection that hasn't been cracked yet. sure it may take a day or two extra before someone patches the protection but it wont stop anyone.

But it can be made "not worth it" to most people.

Maybe Apple could have some kind of proof-of-purchase server as part of their iTunes back end. Just a list of numeric codes (one for every Apple ID) and which apps are authorized for that ID. (Which Apple already knows, of course--but this would be an anonymized version for apps to use without any tie to personal identity info.)

Upon joining a multiplayer game (or other server-related task), your device would send your AppleID and IP address to Apple's proof-of-purchase server. The IP address would not be stored, merely passed along to the multiplayer server and the other players... but ONLY if purchase was verified.

This would be another API for Apple to offer. Pirates would have to make their OWN multiplayer server and matchmaking system, and graft it into the app in place of Apple's... no easy task. And if (when) someone managed to do so, you'd only be matching with other pirates, not with the rest of the public.

Still worth saving a measly $4.99?

Just thinking out loud.

[jchampl]

But it can be made "not worth it" to most people.

Maybe Apple could have some kind of proof-of-purchase server as part of their iTunes back end. Just a list of numeric codes (one for every Apple ID) and which apps are authorized for that ID. (Which Apple already knows, of course--but this would be an anonymized version for apps to use without any tie to personal identity info.)

Upon joining a multiplayer game (or other server-related task), your device would send your AppleID and IP address to Apple's proof-of-purchase server. The IP address would not be stored, merely passed along to the multiplayer server and the other players... but ONLY if purchase was verified.

This would be another API for Apple to offer. Pirates would have to make their OWN multiplayer server and matchmaking system, and graft it into the app in place of Apple's... no easy task. And if (when) someone managed to do so, you'd only be matching with other pirates, not with the rest of the public.

Still worth saving a measly $4.99?

Just thinking out loud.

that would be very easy to get around. obviously with that kind of protection, that server check would be set in the firmware. which would go out and check and if it says yes then it would play and if no then it would close the application. that "check" line could easily be removed from the modified firmware. if it couldn't be removed without ruining the integrity of the process, then a background program could run constantly reporting a yes check. and thre crackers, are just cracking to save themselves 4.99 but around 2,00+ people 4.99 so to them it is worth 4.99.

[Adams Immersive]

that would be very easy to get around. obviously with that kind of protection, that server check would be set in the firmware. which would go out and check and if it says yes then it would play and if no then it would close the application. that "check" line could easily be removed from the modified firmware. if it couldn't be removed without ruining the integrity of the process, then a background program could run constantly reporting a yes check. and thre crackers, are just cracking to save themselves 4.99 but around 2,00+ people 4.99 so to them it is worth 4.99.

No, because the program needs the other players' IP addresses. Removing a line won't make Apple's p-o-p server deliver that information!

Which is why I say to work around this, pirates would have to create their own multiplayer server or other means to deliver IP addresses, and graft that into the existing app.

[iKoda]

Here's my opinion of Pirates.
Everything gets pirated so you shouldn't worry so much about it.
I run jailbroken and the first thing people say, you use cracked apps. I don't, and it's annoying for people to think that. Lots of people run jailbroken just to theme their phone or get more than 9 pages.

Anyways, lets give an example of something.

Sure, your new game is out and has been pirated and has been downloaded illegally 2,000 times.

Of that 2,000, if they were to not use cracked apps, what percentage would jump the fence and buy it?
So even if it were illegally downloaded instead of 2,000 lost of sales it would be less. (just something that could make you happier that you didn't lose that many sales.)

Of that 2,000 there are a (I'd say small but i'm not sure...) percentage of people who use cracked apps as demos and then buy it.

Do the math, instead of 2,000 lost of sales you will just have XXXX lost of sales. Still bad but....Could cheer you up.

[jchampl]

No, because the program needs the other players' IP addresses. Removing a line won't make Apple's p-o-p server deliver that information!

Which is why I say to work around this, pirates would have to create their own multiplayer server or other means to deliver IP addresses, and graft that into the existing app.
A false reporting background app would do it. However the ip check would need to programed into the game if not it will be removed when the firmware is modified. If it's in the game then the drm removal program can easily cut out those lines of code in the cracking process. It's a good idea however it won't work. Plus your idea only applies to multiplayer games what about the other 93%?

[Adams Immersive]

Here's my opinion of Pirates.
Everything gets pirated so you shouldn't worry so much about it.
I run jailbroken and the first thing people say, you use cracked apps. I don't, and it's annoying for people to think that. Lots of people run jailbroken just to theme their phone or get more than 9 pages.

True. But if you're paying for a server (multiplayer system or whatever) then it's more than worry: those pirates are costing you money!

[DaveMc99]

My opinion on what developers should do about pirates.. have superdog find them :)
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1705/superdog.gif

[Adams Immersive]

A false reporting background app would do it. However the ip check would need to programed into the game if not it will be removed when the firmware is modified. If it's in the game then the drm removal program can easily cut out those lines of code in the cracking process. It's a good idea however it won't work. Plus your idea only applies to multiplayer games what about the other 93%?

A false reporting app still wouldn't solve the pirate's problem: they could spoof Apple's server on YOUR player's end... but the other players would still be awaiting your IP address from the master server. Unless they too have hacked apps on their end--which is why I say it would be pirates playing with other pirates.

I was focussing on multiplayer games because that's a scenario where pirates are directly taking money OUT of the dev's pockets, again and again (server costs). In other words, if I can't stop my app from being pirated, I'd want to stop the pirates from accessing my server and jacking up my monthly bill!

[iKoda]

True. But if you're paying for a server (multiplayer system or whatever) then it's more than worry: those pirates are costing you money!

I'm not techy so I never would have thought multiplayer would cost developers.
Personally, I never play a game online with multiplayer, 1 my internet connection will probably disconnect me and 2, can't find other people to play with when I try and couple times.
Off topic, sorry.

[lcwz]

I would personally like to see more real time multiplayer games for the iPhone(not talking about mafia games or other text based mmorpgs), but the piracy problem and server costs also add to the complication. It would not make sense to develop a game that requires server costs where consumers only make a one-time payment.

If apple is able to come up with some sort of pay-monthly or subscription system for games, I think this would be a real possibility. I have heard that Beejive has implemented a fairly successful system of blacklisting UDIDs of pirated users until they can confirm their purchase, so this could be one of the solutions.

[dangerz]

I would personally like to see more real time multiplayer games for the iPhone(not talking about mafia games or other text based mmorpgs), but the piracy problem and server costs also add to the complication. It would not make sense to develop a game that requires server costs where consumers only make a one-time payment.

If apple is able to come up with some sort of pay-monthly or subscription system for games, I think this would be a real possibility. I have heard that Beejive has implemented a fairly successful system of blacklisting UDIDs of pirated users until they can confirm their purchase, so this could be one of the solutions.

3.0 could provide that with the in-app purchases.

[jchampl]

I have heard that Beejive has implemented a fairly successful system of blacklisting UDIDs of pirated users until they can confirm their purchase, so this could be one of the solutions.

while this was a goodd method it only took about a week until it was patched.

[ZZMitch]

I know this is a little old, but with the new phone and jailbreak I think this topic should be opened up again.

I used to download cracked apps, but I stopped because whenever I played a cracked game I felt guilty and bad. So I bought all the games that I had cracked and removed the application that let you do that. Granted, I am probably a very small percentage, as most people don't visit this website and see how all these developers are working very hard to create enjoyable games for these devices.

I hope Apple or a smart developer can find some way of stopping cracked apps. The best way, in my opinion, is for Apple to make jailbreaking obsolite. I am still jailbroken, because I like having things like custom themes, SSH and cool apps like SBSettings that make it easier to use my iPod Touch. If Apple let the user create and change the themes on the iPod and iPhone and other things currently only possible on jailbreaked devices, then jailbreaking and piracy would fall.

Too bad Apple would never do that...

[wootbean]

What exactly does it mean for an app to be 'cracked'?

When I first jailbroke I downloaded many games illegally too but ended up deleting almost all of them, the few that remained I bought. I only jailbreak for themes now too.

[Adams Immersive]

What exactly does it mean for an app to be 'cracked'?

When I first jailbroke I downloaded many games illegally too but ended up deleting almost all of them, the few that remained I bought. I only jailbreak for themes now too.

Cracked = piracy prevention removed (be it Apple's DRM, something else the developer employed, or both) so that the cracked version can be stolen by anyone.

[justThinkEasy]

Question.. Can the people who pirate apps also get the paid add-ons for free too? Cause if they can't, devs should just make the app free (and it'll be like the lite version) and then just make the full game as DLC

[DaveMc99]

Cause if they can't, devs should just make the app free (and it'll be like the lite version) and then just make the full game as DLC

Free apps can not have DLC.

[Adams Immersive]

Free apps can not have DLC.

And pirates will pirate the DLC too anyway.

I'd be happy to see Apple doing what they can, though--they can't "win" necessarily but they have deep pockets to keep it from being easy, and reduce how widespread it is.

[wootbean]

Question.. Can the people who pirate apps also get the paid add-ons for free too? Cause if they can't, devs should just make the app free (and it'll be like the lite version) and then just make the full game as DLC

:mad: That would be horrible

[DaveMc99]

:mad: That would be horrible

Why? That is where things are going.. most apps are 99 cents.. Then you pay for more.

[Shokz]

Why? That is where things are going.. most apps are 99 cents.. Then you pay for more.

And it sucks like hell - Developers that make games that have downloadable content that costs money and yet could have been in the original game deserve to die :/

[DaveMc99]

And it sucks like hell - Developers that make games that have downloadable content that costs money and yet could have been in the original game deserve to die :/

Would you rather all good games be priced at $9.99 like they were last year?

[Adams Immersive]

And it sucks like hell - Developers that make games that have downloadable content that costs money and yet could have been in the original game deserve to die :/

Suggested correction:

"Developers that make games that have downloadable content that costs money and yet should have been in the original game because the original game was priced too high if it's missing deserve to have people choose other games instead."

If, on the other hand a game is WORTH the original price with only the original content, then I don't see any problem. And that's the same standard you've always applied to buying a game: is the price worth what it contains?

Then, after that, you can ask the same about each paid DLC. Is it worth the price? If not, you can move on.

In other words, it's not HOW you are charged that's a problem, it's whether you are charged too much for too little. Developers who overcharge for poor content (in any form) should not make money. Other developers should.

You also can't expect developers to be paid once and then keep providing more content (which costs them time and money). It's great when developers do that, but at some point, the new stuff must be paid for or it simply won't exist. So, two solutions: release a sequel (taking up yet another icon space) or let people update what they have. I like the latter just fine.

[Shokz]

Would you rather all good games be priced at $9.99 like they were last year?

Good games, yes, because if you take examples from console games, they charge £1.39 for a single extra car - worth it? Jog on.

I'd rather have it all in the original game and just pay a little more to start off with.

I have no problem with what Adams Immersive said - if a developer goes on to create lots more content for the game after release and it's priced reasonably I have no problem with it. An example would be the upcoming WipEout HD Furt update; as long as it's £9.99 or less I'm there ;)

[justThinkEasy]

Would you rather all good games be priced at $9.99 like they were last year?

I agree, with DLC I'll be paying less because I'll be able to choose what things in the game I want.

In a way I can customize the game to my preference, so I can get it for cheaper(or more expensive with more content)

[ZZMitch]

I agree, with DLC I'll be paying less because I'll be able to choose what things in the game I want.

In a way I can customize the game to my preference, so I can get it for cheaper(or more expensive with more content)

I never really thought about it that way! Good idea :p

[somedude445]

i have an idea, if you find a cracked app email the link to the dev so they can take it down.

i think the main source of cracked apps (i dont crack my apps but lots of my friends do) has got to be appulo if apple can bring them down then it should at least half the number of cracked apps

[Shokz]

i have an idea, if you find a cracked app email the link to the dev so they can take it down.

i think the main source of cracked apps (i dont crack my apps but lots of my friends do) has got to be appulo if apple can bring them down then it should at least half the number of cracked apps

It would be practically impossible to bring down Appulo - think about The Pirate Bay; even though (surprisingly) the founders have been prosecuted, the site won't ever come down (it went down once for 3 days, actually - shocking :p)

[wootbean]

i have an idea, if you find a cracked app email the link to the dev so they can take it down.

i think the main source of cracked apps (i dont crack my apps but lots of my friends do) has got to be appulo if apple can bring them down then it should at least half the number of cracked apps

A lot of devs would get a lot of links...=/

[AlvinoTheChipmunk]

To me, I think cracked apps aren't a huge deal. The people who pirate apps would never buy the apps in the first place. One of my friends had no apps whatsoever and used his iPhone just as a music device and phone. But after he found out about cracked apps, he downloaded them, and showed them to many people, including many of my other friends, some of which who bought the app based on seeing the game in real life. So obviously it's detrimental, but to what degree? In my opinion, its not a huge deal.

[Adams Immersive]

To me, I think cracked apps aren't a huge deal. The people who pirate apps would never buy the apps in the first place. One of my friends had no apps whatsoever and used his iPhone just as a music device and phone. But after he found out about cracked apps, he downloaded them, and showed them to many people, including many of my other friends, some of which who bought the app based on seeing the game in real life. So obviously it's detrimental, but to what degree? In my opinion, its not a huge deal.

You're right, it's not necessarily a huge deal, but it can be--and some developers have the hard data on this from what I hear :(

For one thing, some honest people pirate stuff casually--they feel a little bad but "their friends do it" or whatever. It's these fence sitters that could turn into honest sales, and whatever fraction they are, a fraction of a HUGE number of users is still a decent number. Furthermore, if a pirate wants something enough, he WILL pay. Pirates don't steal everything in their life, they steal what they can. Now, people pirate lots of stuff they don't really want, so that too is a fraction. But again, a fraction of a big number!

But more importantly, many apps use a server of some kind. To provide news, to send downloadable free add-ons, to manage user accounts and high scores, to connect multiplayer games... sometimes even to perform heavy-duty back-end processing.

Those servers (and their bandwidth/support/maintenance/electricity) cost developers money, month after month, and the more people use them, the higher the cost. That could be a real problem if the number of pirates is large--and from anecdotes I've heard from iPhone devs, they'll often look at their server logs and see (somehow?) that MOST of their users are pirates. So now they're making money (once) from less than half of their users, but PAYING money forever for all of their users! (Insult to injury: pirates who demand support from you! And if more than half your users are pirates, that will happen.)

That's why I don't intend to have so much as a global high score list on my game unless I get a better grip on the anti-piracy situation. Which is too bad, since I have some cool multiplayer ideas. (It's also why I'd almost consider making the online parts of an app ad-driven, even if the rest of the app is not free. But that is a whole can of worms I probably wouldn't open! :p )

[weedeatinflyincougar]

i might not agree with piracy but there is one app i just had to get: that iamrich app that costs $999.99, it just deserved it; that price tag for a picture? it was practically asking to be cracked

[reinhart_menken]

I'm an app developer (just started, nothing amazing).. the first app I've ever sold on my own though was through the app store. I just thought I'd share my opinion on the whole application cracking/piracy scene.

First off, I see it as a completely separate entity than jailbreaking the phones. Those phones are ours, not AT&Ts or Apples and I see no reason why they feel they can limit our use. I'm not renting the device, I purchased it.

As for cracking/pirating the apps.. I noticed a pretty big hit to sales once my app got cracked. It's only $.99 and it's not like I sell a lot anyway, so it was easy to see the difference. I guess my question is why do people still pirate the app if it's so cheap? I'm not claiming to be a messiah of software. I've also pirated applications before, but my reasoning was usually that I couldn't afford the software that I needed. When I had the money, I had no problems paying for what I wanted. I felt that if someone were to put a lot of time into something, there's no reason not to repay them if it wasn't unreasonable.

The reason I'm even caring is that I'm working on a multiplayer game. I don't agree at all with DRM and have no intentions of implementing it. One thing I'm worried about though is if people start pirating the app, I won't be bringing in enough money to keep maintaining the servers. What can I do, besides keeping the app as affordable as I can, to entice users to actually pay? I have no problems with the initial piracy to check the game out. I'll even be releasing a free version to give people a general idea of the game because I think the fact that you want to try something before purchasing it is a very valid reason to pirate. I'm just wondering what approaches would help encourage people to purchase the app, rather than just play it for free? Clearly they have money considering they spent at minimum $200 to purchase the device it's on.

Any information you could give me would be great.. Also if this isn't allowed to be spoken about, I apologize and feel free to lock :)

Roy

I'm principally against paying for overpriced softwares/games that are those prices just because of the greed of corporations.

Right now I know a lot of you think I'm full of xxxx; and before I asked myself why I still do it with cheap AppStore games, like the author did, I would have thought so as well.

After reflecting on it I decided that really good, fun games that have quality should be rewarded with an actual purchase (for the dev's sake), games that I would play over and over again (or just really like their quality) and cherish the experience, instead of ones that I have and play only a couple times, a lot of times without even finishing it or getting past level 3. So I purcahsed NanoFighter, Dungeon Chronicles, Mecho Wars, Isotope, Light Wars and Hero of Sparta; and there'll prolly be some more when games I'm waiting for do come out (Red Alert, Warpgate, Legion of Amon).

Really, promising updates that has new contents help too (not just patches), because likely someone who cracks/pirates have near hundred of apps on their phone, and can't be bothered to keep track of all their updates, while the AppStore app just do it for you.

Most games are just rehashes and copies of the stereotpypes of a certain genre - fantasy RPGs always have skeletons and goblins, RTS always have tanks. There's almost always only ever raising stats and skills (old-worn-out skills) or clicking grouping and pointing. If a game brings innovation to the table, to make it just somewhat better than it's original copy (which is why a rehash/copy ideally would be permissible, because they add something that the original lacked), not exclusively game play mechanics, maybe just the setting (Starcraft has atypical units; Hellgate London has very unusual setting; Mecho Wars has....you've just never seen those graphics; Fallout 123/Tactics - my favorite, too many reasons to list), then it makes it better than just a clone.

And of course, I don't demand anything from you if I didn't buy it from you - because I didn't pay for it.

Yes, I could have gotten the lite version of some of them, but how do I know I won't like what's excluded from lite? (RPGs get fun after you're past level 5, certain games can't be enjoyed with certain items or units) And at the rate of how fast I discard these apps, how do you think excluding things from the lite version would help? (Not you author)

One final thing for the author as to how to let players try out your game, if it's possible, you could not exclude anything in the beginning, and give the players 7 - 14 days to try it out (if they don't want to play beyond that, they weren't going to anyways), then prompt them to pay for it or the game gets locked. That'd only be possible, I imagine, if you can retrieve device ID or player's itune account and store the information on server to verify (so they don't just uninstall and reinstall the game and try it out for free some more).

[Adams Immersive]

And of course, I don't demand anything from you if I didn't buy it from you - because I didn't pay for it.

Just as long as you also don't PLAY my game :) People have their gray areas and their rationales, but keeping a game and not paying for it crosses a line that isn't gray. If you don't like it for the price asked, then you should do without my creation. (Which I think is what you are saying you would do.)

I also feel it should be my choice, as the creator, what to have in the Lite version. If it's not enough to judge by, then again, you should do without, and move on to some other game. My sales will suffer and maybe I'll have the incentive to make the lite version show the game in more depth.

Basically, I say the "overpriced or not" decision is in both our hands, but not in the same way: I have the right to charge what I like for whatever I create. You have the right to skip the whole thing if you don't like my price.

[reinhart_menken]

Just as long as you also don't PLAY my game :) People have their gray areas and their rationales, but keeping a game and not paying for it crosses a line that isn't gray. If you don't like it for the price asked, then you should do without my creation. (Which I think is what you are saying you would do.)

I also feel it should be my choice, as the creator, what to have in the Lite version. If it's not enough to judge by, then again, you should do without, and move on to some other game. My sales will suffer and maybe I'll have the incentive to make the lite version show the game in more depth.

Basically, I say the "overpriced or not" decision is in both our hands, but not in the same way: I have the right to charge what I like for whatever I create. You have the right to skip the whole thing if you don't like my price.

No, you completely missed my point, and like a lot of people you only saw or zoomed in on money, money, money (instead of all the other aspects I was talking about).

The statement you quoted was my response to someone (you or chipmunk) saying that there are players out there who didn't pay for games and still had the nerve to demand updates and stuff.

That was the only part in my post that I even talked about price (one sentence), and it was the only thing you focused on.

I can afford the games, but I'll only buy it if they're have quality, are fun, and have replayability (games that i'll pick up again and again, and not just play the first 2 levels and never touch). Hero of Sparta was around $5 or $4, Mecho Wars was around 4 or something. And I do believe I don't have your games, respectfully :p Read the entire post again without constantly thinking about the money part.

[gnadenlos]

I don't think pirates will hurt your server too much. Most of the hardcore pirates download so much stuff, that they don't have time to play anything more than a few minutes.

Others are burned by price drops and use pirated copies until they can buy the game for $1-$2. This won't hurt you, if you plan to sell your game for $1.

Some use pirated copies as tryout. They will buy your game, if they like it for a longer period of time. You could speed that up by releasing a lot of updates. If they have to get a new pirated version every week, they will soon think about buying the game for $1 to get automated updates. You could block old versions from online play.

There will still be some people who play your game a lot and continue to use pirated copies, but I don't think this will be such a large percentage as some of those "piracy statistics" make you think.

[Adams Immersive]

No, you completely missed my point, and like a lot of people you only saw or zoomed in on money, money, money (instead of all the other aspects I was talking about).

The statement you quoted was my response to someone (you or chipmunk) saying that there are players out there who didn't pay for games and still had the nerve to demand updates and stuff.

That was the only part in my post that I even talked about price, and it was the only thing you focused on.

I can afford the games, but I'll only buy it if they're have quality, are fun, and have replayability (games that i'll pick up again and again, and not just play the first 2 levels and never touch). Hero of Sparta was around $5 or $4. And I do believe I don't have your games, respectfully :p

I am quite certain you don't, as I have none :p (Not for iPhone anyway.)

I didn't focus only on the price question, but I had to include it to make my perspective complete. (And pricing was your opening statement, after all.)

Anyway it's certainly good that you don't demand support! Some do, I hear.


I don't think pirates will hurt your server too much. Most of the hardcore pirates download so much stuff, that they don't have time to play anything more than a few minutes.

Others are burned by price drops and use pirated copies until they can buy the game for $1-$2. This won't hurt you, if you plan to sell your game for $1.

Some use pirated copies as tryout. They will buy your game, if they like it for a longer period of time. You could speed that up by releasing a lot of updates. If they have to get a new pirated version every week, they will soon think about buying the game for $1 to get automated updates. You could block old versions from online play.

There will still be some people who play your game a lot and continue to use pirated copies, but I don't think this will be such a large percentage as some of those "piracy statistics" make you think.

Those statistics vary from game to game--the situation is not a sure-fire disaster--but they CAN be quite bad. To the point where a HUGE chunk of your users are pirates (and thus, they're using a huge chunk of your server time). That chunk can be half or more! (I googled for some example cases, and have run across others--on iPhone and at InsideMacGames regarding desktop games.) That doesn't happen to every dev, but that's the situation I'm not willing to risk.

And so for starters I'll be avoiding server-enabled features, sad to say. "Some" pirates being honest on some level doesn't help enough.

[reinhart_menken]

I am quite certain you don't, as I have none :p (Not for iPhone anyway.)

I didn't focus only on the price question, but I had to include it to make my perspective complete. (And pricing was your opening statement, after all.)

Well, for me the opening statement was more about principal (greedy corporate), but we all see different things, so let's not argue what my opening statement was really about.

Anyway it's certainly good that you don't demand support! Some do, I hear.

That's just more slimy than normal slimy :p

I also feel it should be my choice, as the creator, what to have in the Lite version. If it's not enough to judge by, then again, you should do without, and move on to some other game. My sales will suffer and maybe I'll have the incentive to make the lite version show the game in more depth.

And back to this topic, yeah, it's your choice and constitutional right to do what you will with your own property, but it's another matter how the market and players will react. We can always choose to do whatever we want with our product, but how favorably consumers would react is another matter. A lot of people will just buy certain thing (but that's more a guarantee if you're a big name or have a lot of hype), others will almost never buy it unless they have a taste of it. Only big names (like Blizzard) can have the luxury of not having to worry about demos.

You can pound your Porsche/[insert premium commodity] with a hammer if you want to, doesn't mean you should.

[cheezeburger69]

Honestly if its 99 cents, BUY IT!

[Camzy]

I would think that micro transactions would make piracy less of a factor. Because there is no way to get the in-app purchases illegally (well I don't think there is!) people will pay more for the DLC.

[Adams Immersive]

I would think that micro transactions would make piracy less of a factor. Because there is no way to get the in-app purchases illegally (well I don't think there is!) people will pay more for the DLC.

We'll find out. But I imagine that if Apple can't stop piracy of the app, they can't stop piracy of the add-ons stored within it either.

[Camzy]

We'll find out. But I imagine that if Apple can't stop piracy of the app, they can't stop piracy of the add-ons stored within it either.

It's a different system though. In app purchases don't work us "updates" per say, so either the pirates would have to SSH into the app which is fussy at best or they would have to find a way to make the add-ons a part of their cracked app. In either case, it will DECREASE piracy because the pirates would have to update frequently or even go through a laborious process of SSHing the add on. Frequent updates become a nuisance to pirates because of the lack of a solid update system, and some games that update frequently - Rolando, Pocket God etc. don't get cracked fast enough to keep up.

[etoiles]

Jumping into the lion's den...

It is funny how some people like to mention the 'greedy corporations', while conveniently ignoring their own greed as they 'pirate' software/music/whatever.

Piracy comes down to one thing: you don't want to spend money on something, you want to keep it for something else instead. That is greed. There is the 'try before you buy' argument, but considering the App Store price range for games, that is a pretty shaky excuse. Not to mention the many Lite versions...

Now I am not pointing fingers, we are all greedy in some way (it is the survival instinct). While most developers are really working hard to make the best games, they are also in it for the money. At least enough to live and grow their business. But the beauty of the App Store is that most proceeds go straight to the developer, not some evil middleman.

Bottom line:
Piracy is human nature and will never go away. 'Pirates': please support developers by buying the games you enjoy. Developers: let's continue to make great games and figure out how to add value to games beyond the one time purchase (and also how to lock those cheating bastards out of our multiplayer games :D).

[Camzy]

But the beauty of the App Store is that most proceeds go straight to the developer, not some evil middleman.

Hmmm.... How much commission did Apple charge again???

:rolleyes:

[Adams Immersive]

Hmmm.... How much commission did Apple charge again???

:rolleyes:

Something a LOT smaller than "most proceeds" ;)

And Apple provides a LOT out of their cut: file hosting, bandwidth, credit card processing, customer service for transactions, marketing, affiliate system, updating system, system for communicating updates, outstanding developer tools, etc.--all of which takes a lot of staff, a lot of hardware, a lot of insurance and a lot of R&D. Apple's not just pocketing their entire 30%. (So I would hope nobody feels justified in stealing the creation of a hard-working developer, just for the sake of also stealing a little bit from evil Apple as well.)

[AttackOfThePwned]

Something a LOT smaller than "most proceeds" ;)

And Apple provides a LOT out of their cut: file hosting, bandwidth, credit card processing, customer service for transactions, marketing, affiliate system, updating system, system for communicating updates, outstanding developer tools, etc.--all of which takes a lot of staff, a lot of hardware, a lot of insurance and a lot of R&D. Apple's not just pocketing their entire 30%. (So I would hope nobody feels justified in stealing the creation of a hard-working developer, just for the sake of also stealing a little bit from evil Apple as well.)

Well to be fair it is 30% of each sale plus $99-$299 developer program charge and a MAC in order to run the SDK if you did not already have one.

[Adams Immersive]

Well to be fair it is 30% of each sale plus $99-$299 developer program charge and a MAC in order to run the SDK if you did not already have one.

Yes--but that still comes to just about the same 30% unless your app is just not selling. If $99 per year ($1.90 per week) is enough to make or break your app's success, you have worse problems than piracy! It mainly serves to keep "non-serious" people from clogging the store with more useless submissions than they already do :o ($299 is for development of internal corporate apps IIRC).

Even the cost of a computer ($600 Mac Mini every 3 years? $3.85 per week) is a drop in the bucket for any reasonable app sales. And you'd have to have SOME computer to develop anything for any platform. Make it a Mac and you're all set--it will still run your old Windows stuff too, and you were going to get a new PC eventually anyway :) The SDK being on Mac isn't about greed and selling Macs, it's about the tools: they're the same as the tools for Mac development, because it's the same OS as a Mac.

[PSMOkizzle]

uhhh.... micro transactions will still probably be hacked, seeing how they can put 9999 money and stuff for zenonia and the sims

[syntheticvoid]

sorry to re-hash an old thread... but Archetype did a good job with their multiplayer, relating to pirated copies...

If you don't mind updating... quite often... they've made it so you HAVE to have the MOST CURRENT version in order to get online and get into death-matches... and they update it quite a bit... every time they do, you see a noticeable drop in the amount of players that can be found on servers...

If you could figure out something like that... I think it would really help keep a lot of the downloaded copies pretty much useless... I don't even think their program starts up so you can go into the training mode if you don't have the current version...


I hope, if you have developed this game already, that you're not getting screwed by the piracy of your app... or if you haven't finished it yet, that something I said might have helped...

[Underoath777]

sorry to re-hash an old thread... but Archetype did a good job with their multiplayer, relating to pirated copies...

If you don't mind updating... quite often... they've made it so you HAVE to have the MOST CURRENT version in order to get online and get into death-matches... and they update it quite a bit... every time they do, you see a noticeable drop in the amount of players that can be found on servers...

If you could figure out something like that... I think it would really help keep a lot of the downloaded copies pretty much useless... I don't even think their program starts up so you can go into the training mode if you don't have the current version...


I hope, if you have developed this game already, that you're not getting screwed by the piracy of your app... or if you haven't finished it yet, that something I said might have helped...

Dude, there is always going to be piracy, not just of iOS games, but of everything, movies, music, games, everything. There is nothing that people can do about it. It will always exist.

[syntheticvoid]

I know it will always exist... but there are measures you can take to keep it to a minimum... I just think what the Archetype developers have done is a very good step in the right direction...

[TapMeJared]

We had a huge problem with piracy, around 80% with bitFLIP. The only thing you can really do is offset the thieves with advertising or make a monetization - virtual goods type game. We decided both of those options stink and are building a new option called iComplishments. Unlike banner ads and videos, we brand power-ups for players to level up and place a brand logo in the games achievements. It works with game center, openfeint, and many other popular choices. icomplishments.com

It is in closed beta till March but we are taking on new clients if they ask. We are dev's trying to make this problem not hurt so much.:)