It's not retina. Really?

[Rubicon]

I've seen a lot of threads talking about retina support on iPad 3 and whatnot and it's clear that at least a small group of people won't buy a game that doesn't run at silly res if they own an iPad 3.

We're about to ship our magnum opus and have been researching how to handle this situation. We have a build at the full new resolution and one at the "old" resolution but with MSAA enabled. (It's a full 3D game btw)

We have two new iPads so we put them side by side for comparison. None of us here could tell them apart, even by putting our noses on the screen and squinting, so what's the big deal here? Am I missing something I shouldn't be?

Unless I am, Great Big War Game will NOT be using retina on iPad3. Instead we'll be using the extra horsepower the GPU provides to add dynamic shadows and better terrain shaders - something that actually makes a noticeable improvement.

Compared to the build running on iPad2, we seem to have 3 choices:

1) Leave it like the iPad 2 graphics and have an even better frame rate
2) Leave it at iPad 2 size and add more graphical fluff and effects
3) Run without extra stuff on a higher resolution we just can't appreciate

Clearly 3) is the worst choice to me, so I have no clue why anyone would promote it as the best.

Discuss?

[drelbs]

I'ma gonna vote 2 because:

1) It won't blow up the file size as 3 probably would and...
2) It should be easier for you to toggle on/off said effects and...
3) I'm not dying for higher FPS in GLWG.

[Rubicon]

+1 Paul likes this.

[RCastle]

My vote was, if the framerate can be made smoother that's always my main concern.

Nothing worse than beautiful, slow as molasses, games.

60 fps FTW!

[JagerBombS]

That is a tough decision and one I thought about recently with the launch of NOVA 3. On the new iPad it looks great with the higher resolution but it doesn't include the effects that the iPad 2 has, which is a big let down. It really takes away from being drawn in to the game (can't believe I'm saying that about a mobile game). In a lot of cases I bet having great bells and whistles will look better than just more pixels. But to the mass consumers, if it doesn't say RETINA in the description, they won't buy it. Or they will rate one star for it, which I just saw this morning for a review of Defender Chronicles 2, where i believe I read their artwork was mostly done before the new resolution came out, but it still looks great. Anyways, can't wait for GBWG with all the bells and whistles!:D

[JBRUU]

iPad 2 res with more effects, hands down. Just keep the framerate stable. I can't wait to see what devs can do with the a5x.

[TakenXXDeadly]

Well, with 2D games you can't sometimes really tell the difference, but with 3D games hell yes I can see the difference. Take gangstar rio for example.

[Rubicon]

@JagerBomb, this is why I'm even considering these options.

For my own personal sensibilities I'm a 2) man, but 1) isn't far behind, and 3) is off the table completely. An utter waste of available resources.

However, the 3) option is the only one that might cost lost sales for not being picked.

I'm still open for more discussion as I do find this an interesting subject. However I'm already coming to a conclusion for what to do myself - stick to principle, make the best game I think that I can and bugger the complainers. After all, there's usually a vocal minority that would find something to complain about anyway! :)

[Rubicon]

Well, with 2D games you can't sometimes really tell the difference, but with 3D games hell yes I can see the difference. Take gangstar rio for example.Can't say I understand this tbh. With 3D it's probably more about the texture resolution, but in 2D you either have to have higher res art or much smaller screen coverage. If you go with higher res art then it should look shit hot.

[Connector]

I vote for option 4, a toggle option between the new ipad mode and ipad 2 mode for new ipad owners. I don't see this option on your list but if you did go this route would the file size much bigger? Would it be hard to do?

I know gamers have complained about Nova 3 and Asphault 6 about bad framerates and no effects. I for one hope more games come out with toggle options pile how pc games do. Sometimes I am in the mood for retina, sometimes want better framerates. But I wonder if more developers will go this route in the future. But maybe not because Apple is greedy about memory size on our idevices, so memory management is still a big factor.

Anyway, under your vote, option 2 for me, and if possible toggles for the effects.

[Rip73]

Option 2. No contest here.
To me, NOVA 3 is the perfect example. The full retina version doesn't look half as good as the iPad 2 version.
More effects will definitely make the game stand out better.
Plus, ironically, when playing NOVA 3, I put down the iPad 3 and pick up the iPad 2.
Plus I have played Gangstar Rio on both and can't see any real difference.

[JBRUU]

I vote for option 4, a toggle option between the new ipad mode and ipad 2 mode for new ipad owners. I don't see this option on your list but if you did go this route would the file size much bigger? Would it be hard to do?

I know gamers have complained about Nova 3 and Asphault 6 about bad framerates and no effects. I for one hope more games come out with toggle options pile how pc games do. Sometimes I am in the mood for retina, sometimes want better framerates. But I wonder if more developers will go this route in the future. But maybe not because Apple is greedy about memory size on our idevices, so memory management is still a big factor.

Anyway, under your vote, option 2 for me, and if possible toggles for the effects.

Yes. Toggles are the best option.

[Rubicon]

For our game it wouldn't kill us. We'll probably not ship with that as we've been prevaricating too long already, but the first update will doubtless have stuff like this in it.

[Connector]

Cool, I hope more developers have a new ipad retina toggle in the future. I always love games with graphic toggles cause I can sit and play with different toggles and compare them. Just as run as playing the game sometimes.

Curious what this new game Great big war is about. Is it a sequel to your last game with more of a 3d effect? Or is it a different game entirely? Looking forward to it.

[satoshi]

Really just want to play GBWG and don't care if the graphics are any different from GLWG. I have the new ipad and retina support has never influenced my decision to buy a game or not.

And a smooth framerate is more important to me than shading, terrain, etc.

It was the TBS gameplay that made GLWG awesome. If retina support were added in a future update, that would be great, but it's not like I'd wait until that to buy it.

[tops2]

I'd personally like a mix of keeping frame rates smooth and adding a few graphical enhancements if there's enough horse power. I'm not a fan of high res if it means frame rate will be choppy. Not sure of the details (and I could be wrong)..but I thought I read Infinity Blade 2 renders at a higher res than ipad2, but not quite full "retina" or something.

But it really depends on the game for me. For games like Infinity Blade 2 or other fast action games, I prefer to have lower res but smooth framerates.

[RCranium666]

You obviously don't have an ipad3. I want to use mine at its ultimate potential.

I've seen a lot of threads talking about retina support on iPad 3 and whatnot and it's clear that at least a small group of people won't buy a game that doesn't run at silly res if they own an iPad 3.

We're about to ship our magnum opus and have been researching how to handle this situation. We have a build at the full new resolution and one at the "old" resolution but with MSAA enabled. (It's a full 3D game btw)

We have two new iPads so we put them side by side for comparison. None of us here could tell them apart, even by putting our noses on the screen and squinting, so what's the big deal here? Am I missing something I shouldn't be?

Unless I am, Great Big War Game will NOT be using retina on iPad3. Instead we'll be using the extra horsepower the GPU provides to add dynamic shadows and better terrain shaders - something that actually makes a noticeable improvement.

Compared to the build running on iPad2, we seem to have 3 choices:

1) Leave it like the iPad 2 graphics and have an even better frame rate
2) Leave it at iPad 2 size and add more graphical fluff and effects
3) Run without extra stuff on a higher resolution we just can't appreciate

Clearly 3) is the worst choice to me, so I have no clue why anyone would promote it as the best.

Discuss?

[Rubicon]

Care to describe what that max potential would be?

[Connector]

I think you need viagra for that... Haha

[JBRUU]

I think you need viagra for that... Haha

Thank you for your helpful and constructive post.

[Monolith]

I was under the impression that you'd want to use max resolution because it's a powerful marketing tool, not because it's the most efficient use of resources. i.e., the same reason why the ipad 3 was physically built with such a high-res screen.

Just because you (the dev) and a handful of people here can rationally agree that resources are better spent elsewhere doesn't mean it's the best choice. Just imagine the power of being able to say "OPTIMIZED FOR UBER HD RETINA SCREENS" when trying to sell the game -- especially a game being sold to people who bought ipad 3's in part due to the successful marketing of the ipads own UBER HD RETINA display. I mean, this is already a proven marketing tactic considering they own ipad 3's: don't be so quick to throw that away.

Plus, I think you've got a much greater chance of being featured/GOTW if Apple can use you to sell new ipads.

[JBRUU]

Ok. Appeal to their greed. Thanks. But we the consumers and customers would greatly prefer that extra power being put to use with more effects, refined physics systems, realtime shadows, AA, ect. Can't have it both ways, bud. Either kiss up to apple or please the consumer. I know it's a hard choice knowing apple, but I trust you'll make the right decision or come to a proper compromise...like a toggle to turn retin on/off...

[Monolith]

But we the consumers and customers would greatly prefer that extra power being put to use with more effects, refined physics systems, realtime shadows, AA, ect.

By and large, no, you don't. Hence my post.

[soldat7]

You obviously don't have an ipad3. I want to use mine at its ultimate potential.

Yup. I won't even consider a purchase unless it supports the native res of my device.

[JBRUU]

By and large, no, you don't. Hence my post.

"Keep the 1024 resolution, but add more graphics and stuff to use the extra power [ 62.96% ]"

I rest my case.

[JBRUU]

Yup. I won't even consider a purchase unless it supports the native res of my device.

If its just an amazon app or a 2d game like angry birds or Jetpack joyride, sure, I agree 100%. But if you want full 3d games to fully support 2048x1536 resolution and run at a stable framerate, you're out of your mind. Infinity blade and mass effect don't even run at full retina resolution, and THEY sometimes have framerate issues. Consoles can barely crank out 1080p for games, yet you're asking greater than that. Heck, even PCs are pushing it to run a full game like crysis at that resolution. It take a helluva a lot of power, and the iPad 3 is a tablet, the most powerful one on the market, but still a tablet. And if retina is such a big issue, why not a toggle to switch between the two? Galaxy on Fire 2 has one. NOVA 3 was promised one in an update. Why not every 3d actioner??

[Monolith]

"Keep the 1024 resolution, but add more graphics and stuff to use the extra power [ 62.96% ]"

I rest my case.

Jesus. Are you trolling me, or do you really not understand?

[JBRUU]

Jesus. Are you trolling me, or do you really not understand?

???

Not at all (the trolling). But I do believe that 62%, especially one out of 3 options, is the majority. If you want full retina, fine, you can support that and I have no problem with it. I do not, and would prefer that the extra power of the iPad 3's beefier GPU and 1gb of RAM be put to use with extra effects rather than full retina. As do 62% of the people who voted in this thread's poll. That, my friend, is the majority out of people polled.

Let's leave it at that. We disagree, no need to argue back and forth and turn this thread into a big debate between the two of us.

[Rubicon]

If its just an amazon app or a 2d game like angry birds or Jetpack joyride, sure, I agree 100%. But if you want full 3d games to fully support 2048x1536 resolution and run at a stable framerate, you're out of your mind. Infinity blade and mass effect don't even run at full retina resolution, and THEY sometimes have framerate issues. Consoles can barely crank out 1080p for games, yet you're asking greater than that.QFT

I agree with everything Monolith said in theory. Unfortunately, the device under discussion is an iPad 3 which, while impressive, doesn't have fantasy power. We've since tried the 3D at full size and even after removing the animated water, textured fog of war and some other stuff, the fps was still crap. And that was before we doubled the texture sizes.

Apple will not be featuring a game that runs at 4 fps.

[Connector]

Alas, that is the thing I wish was better with my ipad. I realize with the new retina screen, it is underpowered in cpu and gpu section when it comes to native 3d projects.

That is the main disadvantage with the new ipad. The heat issues bothered me for about a week, but for some reason now they seem to have gotten better, or me used to them. The power charging issues can be solved by powering up more often.

But alas, this 3d framerate problem is bad for high end console games. Like Rubicon says, no one wants to play a game with 4 fps, with no effects turned on.

That would be the only reason I would have waited for the ipad 4. But I LOVE my new ipad, so I guess this dilemna with framerates is something I am going to have to deal with. Lucky, I don't like first person shooters too much, but boy, it does affect my driving games a lot.

[JBRUU]

It's underpowered in gpu, not CPU. CPU has nothing to do with framerate issues with retina.

[Frand]

One approach to possibly consider is to render the in-game 3D at regular iPad resolution (with AA if you wish), but HUD elements and any text with retina sharpness.

The biggest benefit from retina is with font legibility anyway, so with such an approach you could safely say the game has been enhanced for retina iPads.

[Rubicon]

That's a good idea.

[DemonJim]

What Frand says. I forgive lower res for higher framerates in 3D, but all OSD elements should still be Retina.

In addition to this, using Retina isn't an all-or-nothing thing - it's a sliding scale.

So for example you can set the contentScaleFactor for your 3D render target to 1.5, which will actually be 50% Retina (where 1.0 is non-Retina and 2.0 is full Retina). The resolution (in terms of pixel shaders) is effectively halfway in between the two.

Another idea is to render the basic scene at full Retina but do all post-production effects (bloom, depth of field, explosion/smoke billboards etc) at lower res.

[Rubicon]

No such options for us. The real killer is the terrain pixel shader now it has to handle the fog of war, or the water shader which has always been a hog.

These kinda thoughts apply generally though, I agree.

[NinthNinja]

I think the problem with iPad Retina or why developers say it's bad for frame rates is because the hardware has not been utilised by the programmers the right way... You really need to optimise from the word go with no half measures.

This is what is possible or what Mutant Storm on the Retina can achieve:

1. 60fps framerate.
2. Two render targets at 1024x768 processing feedback effects.
3. One render target at 2048x1536 processing level and enemies.
4. The 2048x1536 render target having post processing effects to simulate glow.
5. And then a copy to a 2048x1536 frame buffer.
6. And to top all that off alpha polygons out number solid polygons in the graphics department.
7. The use of 32bit colour on textures, frame buffers and render targets.

In theory all this should grind the framerate down but in practise the game runs at a solid 60fps without a hiccup. The only thing that has effected framerate is when Game Center boots up.

But the point I'm making is that the hardware is not underpowered and it can actually process a fair amount of pixels.

In a marketing sense it makes sense to go for this because you will highly be likely to get featured by Apple.


That trick of rendering into a lower rez render target and drawing the hud at a higher resolution is what I did for the iPad1 version of Mutant Storm - I'm actually surprised that the iPad1 can handle quite a few render targets.


Anyway, I hope no one takes offence with this post... it's just another point of view on what is possible on iPad Retina.

[Rubicon]

No offense here, we've never been able to figure out what our core fps issue is.

Our game doesn't have a bad frame rate but it's always been lower than what my gut tells me it should be. We've spent weeks with various analysers trying all the tricks - 1x1 textures, "just colour" shaders, drawing cubes instead of models etc. etc. There's no newbie mistakes in our engine, it just draws a shitload of stuff.

Are you using "packed" vertex formats? One thing we've never tried it making them "worse" by using floats for normals instead of an U8 type etc.

[DemonJim]

Given what you've said you've tried while investigating the bottleneck Rubicon my hunch (assuming you're not vertex-bound) is that there are just too many GL state changes going on.

[Rubicon]

It's not state-changes. Our engine already sorts the rendering list to minimise them and one time we took the dirty cache out and let it set every state, even if it's already set. No change.

We've never been able to test if we're vertex bound tbh, but I wouldn't think so - not drawing the units didn't give much back and the terrain models didn't increase when we saved out simpler ones (the meshes are all cpu extruded in a tool - as a manifold, no overdraw).

We came to the conclusion we were chasing ghosts and have no true bottlenecks, we're just drawing shitloads of stuff - it may not look it but there's a bucketload of graphics in our game.

[DemonJim]

Maybe it's that sort algorithm? That's (mostly) a joke by the way :)

Still, I really don't understand why you can't try what I said above having 'partial Retina' by setting the contentScaleFactor somewhere between 1.0 and 2.0 - I suppose that depends if you're using middleware which supports it (if not, get them to add it!)

[Rubicon]

Nah, it's all our own engine code.

We already have a partial rendertarget solution available but we'd prefer to add dynamic shadows tbh - unless it's perfect retina there are other things we can do to make the game look better on iPad 3, kinda where I came in. :)

[RCranium666]

I think you need viagra for that... Haha

Speak for yourself!



Care to describe what that max potential would be?



App run at native resolution with as many effects as possible.

[Frand]

App run at native resolution with as many effects as possible.

It's equally in every device's max potential to run more effects at a lower resolution, or to trade resolution for scene complexity.

One shouldn't get too attached to pixels - if utilizing the max resolution of the device was a key criterion for playing game, very few games from the current best-sellers on consoles would qualify. Games with such brands attached as Halo, Call of Duty, GTA, WipeOut, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock etc. have all traded resolution for frame-rates.

[JBRUU]

It's equally in every device's max potential to run more effects at a lower resolution, or to trade resolution for scene complexity.

One shouldn't get too attached to pixels - if utilizing the max resolution of the device was a key criterion for playing game, very few games from the current best-sellers on consoles would qualify. Games with such brands attached as Halo, Call of Duty, GTA, WipeOut, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock etc. have all traded resolution for frame-rates.

Yes. I completely agree. Wtf is with the obsession for ridiculously high resolutions?? I'd much rather have a better framerate and or more effects. Or render at an in between resolution if iPad 2 and 3.

[NinthNinja]

No offense here, we've never been able to figure out what our core fps issue is.

Our game doesn't have a bad frame rate but it's always been lower than what my gut tells me it should be. We've spent weeks with various analysers trying all the tricks - 1x1 textures, "just colour" shaders, drawing cubes instead of models etc. etc. There's no newbie mistakes in our engine, it just draws a shitload of stuff.

Are you using "packed" vertex formats? One thing we've never tried it making them "worse" by using floats for normals instead of an U8 type etc.

I use packed formats. Using floats and such will destroy the framerate.

Mutant Storm is very efficient to collapse draw calls into each other. But one of the biggest gains that worked for me for dynamic changes to vertices was to have one vertex buffer pool that gets mapped at the beginning of the frame and gets filled. Also I don't use the hardware for skinning or lighting and use the CPU for that - the CPU is not the real issue here... By grouping all the textures into one giant texture atlas you can draw most of the geometry with a few draw calls, using the same state changes. Internally the GPU is not doing many state changes and by doing this it can run very efficiently.

Alpha polygons use a very nice trick I picked up from Luke Ryan when I was at True Axis. Normally you want to use 2 different blend states to simulate dark or light effects. You can build the blend modes/math into the texture data and vertex colour data and just set a certain blend mode up on initialisation. Then have all your alpha textures into a supper texture atlas that will cope with the light and dark effects. You still have to sort them but CPU power is fine on the iPad3 and just draw all alpha with one draw call. That way the GPU can run without state changes while processing alpha.

This is only a gloss over but the outlines above will boost performance through the roof. In other words you need to think of better ways to collapse state changes into each other for full Retina displays. Mutant Storm draws everything between 14 to 20 draw calls.

[Rubicon]

Sounds good. Sadly almost none of that can apply to my game - the textures are already packed but still take up shedloads of space with 40+ different units possible on screen etc.

I think our game is pretty much a pathological case tbh. :(

[Rubicon]

That's a piss poor spam bot you have there.

[JBRUU]

That's a piss poor spam bot you have there.

Huh?

[Connector]

Huh?

Me too, I'm curious where the comment came from. Must be a deleted message in there someplace.

[soldat7]

It's equally in every device's max potential to run more effects at a lower resolution, or to trade resolution for scene complexity.

One shouldn't get too attached to pixels - if utilizing the max resolution of the device was a key criterion for playing game, very few games from the current best-sellers on consoles would qualify. Games with such brands attached as Halo, Call of Duty, GTA, WipeOut, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock etc. have all traded resolution for frame-rates.

You don't sit a foot and a half away from your TV, though. It's all about viewing distance, so you can't really compare the two.

[Rubicon]

Me too, I'm curious where the comment came from. Must be a deleted message in there someplace.It was indeed. iirc it say "I'm sorry but I don't know how to <thread title> :)

[Frand]

You don't sit a foot and a half away from your TV, though. It's all about viewing distance, so you can't really compare the two.

I beg to differ, this thread has a strong analogy to the complaints of how lazy/greedy/incompetent console developers don't utilize the Cell to its full potential and give PS3 gamers all their FullHD pixels. Everyone can tell the difference between 640p and 1080p in the living room, right? ;)

[JBRUU]

I beg to differ, this thread has a strong analogy to the complaints of how lazy/greedy/incompetent console developers don't utilize the Cell to its full potential and give PS3 gamers all their FullHD pixels. Everyone can tell the difference between 640p and 1080p in the living room, right? ;)

Good point.