About Armed Heroes Online vs. Torchlight (response from EGLS)

[Serena zhang]

Hi everyone,

Armed Heroes(3D MMORPG) is upcoming to the AppStore on Oct.12th in its new version.

Main features:
Latest iPhone and iOS system supported
Self-developed engine, impression effect
Brilliant particle effect，armor-fashion exchangeable
Copy – core game mode, multiple difficulties challenge
Brand new combination of different gameplays
Clean and clear UI ensures smooth and easy controls.
Voice chat instead of typing brings real-time online interaction within the game world

Game trailer:
http://youtu.be/ZerPYhGvk0U

Thanks for your support！

[Joltrabbit]

The "There is nothing new under the sun" argument. Interesting. Carry on.

[squarezero]

The "There is nothing new under the sun" argument. Interesting. Carry on.
Actually, that's not what they are arguing. The gist of their defense, for those who don't want to bother reading the whole posts are as follows:

1) the differences between AH and TL are more significant than the similarities.

2) the similarities between AH and TL are due to the fact that both games borrow from similar sources

3) Runic is being hypocritical when they raise such a stink about AH

I won't comment as whether these arguments are valid or reasonable. I do wonder why they haven't answered the second and (to my mind) more serious charge: the wholesale pilfering of sound files, many of which have the same names as the TL original.

Not sure if Runic will respond to this (they might not see the point). Still, I guess it's a good thing that the developers of AH have put out their own take on this debacle.

[Bryan @ Muteki Corp]

Now I'm not sure I'm reading this right but from what I'm seeing

Runic: "You stole our art!"

EGLS: "We totally wrote the code ourselves!"

Or hmm, for the sake of having fun...

Bank: "You stole our money!"

Robber: "I paid for that getaway car fair and square!"

[Blackharon]

Is it just me or do many of those 'similar' talents seem not similar at all.

Case in point: #11. One is a bomb that shoots blades, where the other is a flying dagger.

It appears all they are saying is 'Not EVERYTHING was inspired by/stolen from TL' and more interestingly 'Look at TL, they did the same as we did.'

[squarezero]

Now I'm not sure I'm reading this right but from what I'm seeing

Runic: "You stole our art!"

EGLS: "We totally wrote the code ourselves!"

Or hmm, for the sake of having fun...

Bank: "You stole our money!"

Robber: "I paid for that getaway car fair and square!"
You are not reading it right.

[Bryan @ Muteki Corp]

Also...can Runic be accused of "stealing" from Diablo 2...when the heads of Runic were the heads of Blizzard North, and the designers of Diablo 2?

[Eli]

Here's the most damning post from the other thread-


We unzipped the IPA. (which is easy - it's a zip file! )
There is a sound manifest.
The sound names are verbatim the same as ours.
In fact, it even includes the misspellings -
How's that?

Notice things like
ordrakdie.wav
- that's our game's end boss.

Or how about

mechdwardeath1.wav

which we misspelled in our package files ( supposed to be mechdwarfdeath1.wav )

Anyone with a copy of Torchlight, a copy of WinZip, and a download of Armed Heroes can trivially verify this.


Text follows -

town.wav=0
trollattack1.wav=1
trollattack2.wav=2
trollattack3.wav=3
trollattack4.wav=4
trolldeath2.wav=5
trolldeath3.wav=6
trolldeath4.wav=7
trolldeath5.wav=8
trollhit3.wav=9
trollhit4.wav=10
trollhit5.wav=11
trollhit6.wav=12
undeaddwarfattack1.wav=13
undeaddwarfattack2.wav=14
undeaddwarfattack3.wav=15
undeaddwarfattack4.wav=16
undeaddwarfdeath1.wav=17
undeaddwarfdeath3.wav=18
undeaddwarfdeath4.wav=19
undeaddwarfdeath5.wav=20
undeaddwarfgeneralattack1.wav=21
undeaddwarfgeneralattack2.wav=22
undeaddwarfgeneralattack3.wav=23
undeaddwarfgeneralattack4.wav=24
undeaddwarfgeneraldeath1.wav=25
undeaddwarfgeneraldeath3.wav=26
undeaddwarfgeneraldeath4.wav=27
undeaddwarfgeneraldeath5.wav=28
undeaddwarfgeneralhit1.wav=29
undeaddwarfgeneralhit2.wav=30
undeaddwarfgeneralhit3.wav=31
undeaddwarfgeneralhit4.wav=32
undeaddwarfhit1.wav=33
undeaddwarfhit2.wav=34
undeaddwarfhit3.wav=35
undeaddwarfhit4.wav=36
victory.wav=37
woodxlesh1.wav=38
woodxlesh2.wav=39
woodxlesh3.wav=40
xlric-xttack1.wav=41
xlric-xttack2.wav=42
xlric-xttack3.wav=43
xlric-xttack4.wav=44
xlric-xttack5.wav=45
yourenotgood.wav=46
zealotattack1.wav=47
zealotattack2.wav=48
zealotattack3.wav=49
zealotattack4.wav=50
zealotdeath2.wav=51
zealotdeath3.wav=52
zealotdeath4.wav=53
zealotdeath5.wav=54
zealotgethit1.wav=55
zealotgethit2.wav=56
zealotgethit3.wav=57
zealotgethit4.wav=58
zealotlaugh2.wav=59
zombieattack1.wav=60
zombieattack2.wav=61
zombieattack3.wav=62
zombieattack4.wav=63
zombiedeath1.wav=64
zombiedeath2.wav=65
zombiedeath3.wav=66
zombiedeath4.wav=67
zombiehit1.wav=68
zombiehit2.wav=69
zombiehit3.wav=70
zombiehit4.wav=71
soundruins.wav=72
soundvillage.wav=73
title.wav=74
soundlava.wav=75
soundmines.wav=76
soundfortress.wav=77
soundpalace.wav=78
skel_die1.wav=79
skel_die2.wav=80
skel_die3.wav=81
skel_die4.wav=82
slow.wav=83
soundboss.wav=84
soundcavern.wav=85
dragonspawngethit3.wav=86
dragonspawngethit4.wav=87
electricattack1.wav=88
electricattack2.wav=89
electricattack3.wav=90
electricattack4.wav=91
electricattack5.wav=92
electriclongattack2.wav=93
elementalattack1.wav=94
elementalattack2.wav=95
elementalattack3.wav=96
elementalattack4.wav=97
elementaldeathrocks.wav=98
elementalhit1.wav=99
elementalhit2.wav=100
elementalhit3.wav=101
elementalhit4.wav=102
embercolossusattack1.wav=103
embercolossusattack2.wav=104
embercolossusattack3.wav=105
embercolossusattack5.wav=106
embercolossusdie.wav=107
embercolossusgethit1.wav=108
embercolossusgethit2.wav=109
embercolossusgethit3.wav=110
embercolossusgethit4.wav=111
explosion4.wav=112
eyehit.wav=113
finish.wav=114
fireattack3.wav=115
fireattack4.wav=116
fireattack5.wav=117
fireattack6.wav=118
fireattack7.wav=119
firehit.wav=120
fireimp1.wav=121
fireimp2.wav=122
fireimp4.wav=123
firelongattack1.wav=124
firelongattack2.wav=125
gateopen.wav=126
gelattack1.wav=127
gelattack2.wav=128
gelattack3.wav=129
gelattack4.wav=130
geldeath2.wav=131
geldeath3.wav=132
geldeath4.wav=133
geldeath5.wav=134
gelhit1.wav=135
gelhit2.wav=136
gelhit6.wav=137
ghostattack1.wav=138
ghostattack2.wav=139
ghostattack3.wav=140
ghostattack4.wav=141
ghostdie1.wav=142
ghostdie2.wav=143
ghostdie3.wav=144
ghostdie4.wav=145
ghosthit1.wav=146
ghosthit2.wav=147
ghosthit3.wav=148
ghosthit4.wav=149
givepoint.wav=150
gobblerattack1.wav=151
gobblerattack2.wav=152
gobblerattack3.wav=153
gobblerattack4.wav=154
gobblerdeath1.wav=155
gobblerdeath2.wav=156
gobblerdeath3.wav=157
gobblergethit1.wav=158
gobblergethit2.wav=159
gobblergethit3.wav=160
gobblergethit4.wav=161
gobdeath1.wav=162
gobdeath2.wav=163
gobdeath3.wav=164
gobdeath4.wav=165
gobgrumble13.wav=166
gobgrumble14.wav=167
gobgrumble15.wav=168
gobgrumble16.wav=169
gobhit3.wav=170
gobhit4.wav=171
gobhit5.wav=172
gobhit6.wav=173
gold.wav=174
gorecomponent1.wav=175
gorecomponent2.wav=176
gorecomponent3.wav=177
gorecomponent4.wav=178
gorecomponent5.wav=179
gravediggerattack1.wav=180
gravediggerattack2.wav=181
gravediggerattack3.wav=182
gravediggerattack4.wav=183
gravediggerdeath1.wav=184
gravediggerdeath2.wav=185
gravediggerdeath3.wav=186
gravediggerdeath4.wav=187
gravediggergethit1.wav=188
gravediggergethit2.wav=189
gravediggergethit3.wav=190
gravediggergethit4.wav=191
iceattack1.wav=192
iceattack2.wav=193
iceattack3.wav=194
iceimp1.wav=195
iceimp2.wav=196
iceimp3.wav=197
icewandimpact1.wav=198
idle4.wav=199
idle8.wav=200
impossible.wav=201
levelup.wav=202
lightningwandimpact1.wav=203
lightningwandimpact2.wav=204
lightningwandimpact3.wav=205
lightxlesh2.wav=206
magicarrow1.wav=207
magicarrow2.wav=208
magicarrow3.wav=209
mechdwardeath1.wav=210
metalflesh1.wav=211
metalflesh2.wav=212
metalflesh3.wav=213
midstep2.wav=214
miss.wav=215
npcalchemy.wav=216
npcbear.wav=217
npcbelle.wav=218
npcboy.wav=219
npcdr.wav=220
npcgirl.wav=221
npchunter.wav=222
npcjewel.wav=223
npcking.wav=224
npcman.wav=225
npcmedea.wav=226
npcmother.wav=227
npcprophet.wav=228
npcsanji.wav=229
npcshop.wav=230
npcsol.wav=231
npcvillage.wav=232
npcwoman.wav=233
ordrakattack1x.wav=234
ordrakattack1y.wav=235
ordrakattack2x.wav=236
ordrakattack2y.wav=237
ordrakchargegrunt1.wav=238
ordrakchargegrunt2.wav=239
ordrakdie.wav=240
pickup.wav=241
poisongethit2.wav=242
poisongethit3.wav=243
poisongethit4.wav=244
poisonwandimpact1.wav=245
poisonwandimpact2.wav=246
poisonwandimpact3.wav=247
potbreak2.wav=248
potionuseheal.wav=249
prelude.wav=250
questcomplete.wav=251
questreceived.wav=252
ratmanattack1.wav=253
ratmanattack2.wav=254
ratmanattack3.wav=255
ratmanattack4.wav=256
ratmandeath1.wav=257
ratmandeath2.wav=258
ratmandeath3.wav=259
ratmandeath4.wav=260
ratmangethit1.wav=261
ratmangethit2.wav=262
ratmangethit3.wav=263
ratmangethit4.wav=264
rockhit.wav=265
rootgolemdeath1.wav=266
rootgolemdeath2.wav=267
rootgolemdeath3.wav=268
seer_effort1.wav=269
seer_effort2.wav=270
seer_effort3.wav=271
seer_effort4.wav=272
select.wav=273
alchemisteffort1.wav=274
alchemisteffort2.wav=275
alchemisteffort3.wav=276
bagfull.wav=277
batmanattack1.wav=278
batmanattack2.wav=279
batmanattack3.wav=280
batmanattack4.wav=281
batmandeath1.wav=282
batmandeath2.wav=283
batmandeath3.wav=284
batmandeath4.wav=285
batmangethit1.wav=286
batmangethit2.wav=287
batmangethit3.wav=288
batmangethit4.wav=289
bigbluntimp1.wav=290
bigbluntimp2.wav=291
blast1.wav=292
blast2.wav=293
blast3.wav=294
bowmiss.wav=295
burrowerattack2.wav=296
burrowerattack3.wav=297
burrowerattack4.wav=298
burrowerattack5.wav=299
burrowerdeath1.wav=300
burrowerdeath2.wav=301
burrowerdeath3.wav=302
burrowergethit2.wav=303
burrowergethit3.wav=304
burrowergethit4.wav=305
burrowergethit5.wav=306
cast5.wav=307
chaindrop.wav=308
chainget.wav=309
cratebreak3.wav=310
darthit1.wav=311
darthit2.wav=312
deathhit.wav=313
die.wav=314
discipleattack1.wav=315
discipleattack2.wav=316
discipleattack3.wav=317
discipleattack4.wav=318
discipledeath1.wav=319
discipledeath2.wav=320
discipledeath3.wav=321
discipledeath4.wav=322
disciplegethit1.wav=323
disciplegethit2.wav=324
disciplegethit3.wav=325
disciplegethit4.wav=326
dragonspawnattack1.wav=327
dragonspawnattack2.wav=328
dragonspawnattack3.wav=329
dragonspawnattack4.wav=330
dragonspawndeath1.wav=331
dragonspawndeath2.wav=332
dragonspawndeath3.wav=333
dragonspawndeath4.wav=334
dragonspawngethit1.wav=335
dragonspawngethit2.wav=336

[Bryan @ Muteki Corp]

You are not reading it right.

I don't see how else to read it.
Runic is accusing EGLS of stealing their assets (in game development, that means maps, models, animations, textures, audio, etc) where the entire response from EGLS seems based around design and game engine / code differences, nothing about the assets themselves, beyond "here's 5 random monsters from TL that don't look like these 5 random monsters from AHO"

[Joltrabbit]

I wasnt going after the statement and I have to commend the detail of the OP.

I just found the comparison to Torchlight to what came before it interesting.

[Blackharon]

"here's 5 random monsters from TL that don't look like these 5 random monsters from AHO"

They didn't even say that... they said 'here's 5 random monsters that kinda sorta look like WoW monsters.' Except there's not much similarity in some of the (looking at the Orc models)

[Ryan @ MMG]

I like pictures.

http://i.imgur.com/oApgZ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/oApgZ.jpg)

[CGSColin]

Given the ample evidence Runic appears to have that you've engaged in wholesale infringement of Torchlight intellectual property I would suggest that trying to convince a few thousand people on a gaming forum that it's perfectly okay to have done so is not what I'd call a "winning strategy".

The people who will shortly be involved in this particular argument will most likely be judges, lawyers and, I'm going to go out on a limb and say Apple, who will probably be getting a DMCA takedown notice any moment now.

As entertaining as this is, I'd recommend you stop digging this hole before it gets any deeper.

[squarezero]

Here's the most damning post from the other thread-
Agreed. And EGLS has not responded to it. At all.

[tbaldree]

What a very interesting reply.

I find it amusing that you have chosen to use WoW assets to compare to the monsters - rather than the Torchlight monsters that I specifically compared them to in my screenshot image. ( which has kindly been posted in this thread now )

I also find it amusing that you are doing a class comparison, when I never called out the class models. I have noted that you have failed to post an image of the class in Armed Heroes which uses the Undead Tier 10 armor as its basis.

The fact that the sound effects in your game are taken with EXACT filenames from ours ( including misspellings, and with our boss names and class names intact ) is also very telling.

I have no problem with inspiration. We are obviously inspired by Diablo, and make no bones about it. But we don't include any Diablo artwork or sounds in our game.

You mentioned Fate and its systems. I happen to have written that game - and we use no assets from it ( with the exception of some Tommy Tallarico sound effects that we re-licensed )

Posting pictures of random models with no association isn't much of a defense, I'm sorry.

Twiddling the geometry a little bit and doing minor texture alterations doesn't equate to original artwork or even artwork 'inspired by'.

How about this comparison image instead?

I'm on tenterhooks awaiting your response.

https://p.twimg.com/AyBvIhGCMAAkUR0.png:large

[Patrick Klepek]

I'd be happy to talk about these allegations in a more formal capacity, EGLS. My attempts to reach your company have so far been unsuccessful.

Please get in touch.


--
patrick klepek
news editor, giant bomb
patrick@giantbomb.com

[glassf]

I wasnt going after the statement and I have to commend the detail of the OP.

I just found the comparison to Torchlight to what came before it interesting.

Torchlight was created by Max and Erich Schaefer (who were the creators of Diablo and the designers of Diablo 1 and 2) and Travis Baldree (who was the designer of Fate). It's not surprising that they drew inspiration from mechanics of their previous games. However, it is surprising that someone would try and justify wholesale theft of audio-visual assets on that basis.

[ghOti]

I'd be happy to talk about these allegations in a more formal capacity, EGLS. My attempts to reach your company have so far been unsuccessful.

Please get in touch.


--
patrick klepek
news editor, giant bomb
patrick@giantbomb.com

I will play the part of the EGLS spokesperson, if that helps. I promise to be just as helpful as their real spokesperson would be.

[tbaldree]

We're not making complaints about lifting design, or mechanics, or even STYLE.
Even if they tried to replicate our style, and made a game with goblins, alchemists, undead dwarves, weird purple zealot ladies, tree golems, and a big end boss who is a purple dragon - WE DON'T CARE. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and all that.

What we DO care about is using our ACTUAL assets with minor adjustments in their game, as opposed to making their own.

[Hawkn]

At the risk of being banned:

Dear Mrs/Mr. Serena Zhang, you sir/ma'am are incredibly stupid on two counts.

1. Runic is not accusing you of making a game inspired by their game(s) (I'll get to that with 2), but of literally ripping art and assets from their game, and pasting them into yours, then claiming ownership.

As if that weren't the funniest part...

2. Every 💩💩💩💩ing game you listed as an example of Torchlight taking inspiration from was... wait for it... 💩💩💩💩ing made by either Travis Baldree, or Max and Erich Shaefer. Yeah, those guys that run Runic.

Oh, and I got Total Biscuit to point out your stupidity on Twitter. He has over 100,000 more followers than you.

Not to mention stuff like Kotaku, and many other big sites. Have fun with this soon to be media massacre. ;)

[Bryan @ Muteki Corp]

We're not making complaints about lifting design, or mechanics, or even STYLE.
Even if they tried to replicate our style, and made a game with goblins, alchemists, undead dwarves, weird purple zealot ladies, tree golems, and a big end boss who is a purple dragon - WE DON'T CARE. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and all that.

What we DO care about is using our ACTUAL assets with minor adjustments in their game, as opposed to making their own.

But...it's so much more cost effective to just re-use yours.
I mean after all, you know how expensive it is to get art made in CHINA? What, do you want them to have to outsource it all?

[TotalBiscuit]

Oh my, the cutest part of the OP was the FATE comparison. Hey, those guys ripped off FATE! Oh wait, they also made FATE, Runic staff worked on it before creating Runic.

[juv3nal]

Oh man, they actually decided to go to bat and try to defend this?
:D

That is too funny. I mean from a PR standpoint, the way to go would be to throw someone under the bus and claim that management had no idea/we're totally sorry/we fired the loser responsible etc.

But really? They're going to try saying what they did was okay?

That is too funny.

[ednan]

*gets the popcorn*

[Akiratech]

i think the point is runic make a port of the game and dont b***h about being ripped off when you should have done yourself nuff said and done deal :
imma need that app on my desk by five lol:D

[pr1me]

Holy crap my Twitter feed is exploding with laughter at this "they stole from themselves first!" argument. What a delightful display of schadenfreude.

[Robotwars]

i think the point is runic make a port of the game and dont b***h about being ripped off when you should have done yourself nuff said and done deal :
imma need that app on my desk by five lol:D

The scary part is if you read the original forum, people actually tried to use this argument. Really.

Laugh.

[iamthekiller]

When you're so obviously caught red handed, criminals and stupid people often just claim complete denial. There's nothing further to lose at that point and it's crazy enough that some might side with the criminal.

[nickd3000]

Oh wow, the sheer stupidity of this :D
I'm at a loss for words!

[sakinnuso]

Kind of blown away by the response of EGLS. Maybe due process works very differently in China, but the logic behind what they've chosen as articles to defend themselves is incredibly circuitous.

I mean, Runic and EGLS aren't even arguing the same points. In fact, EGLS never actually addresses the DIRECT POINTS AND EXAMPLES of THEFT that Runic accuses them of.

Okay, big BIG props to TA for turning this fiasco around and putting the argument that Travis presented as plainly as possible with accompanying pictures. How TA has handled the situation is the definition of responsible.

In the original thread, my posted opinion was to close it out and lock the thread, but doing so wouldn't have allowed all of the arguments to mature. Hodap gets credit for keeping things open - which seemed insane at the time - and working behind the scenes to get the entire story out.

Had EGLS publicly admitted that they'd used assets - even feigning that it was without their knowledge - and removed the app, I think that would've demonstrated a company that was reasonable.

Their reply, however, shows that Travis was right when he said that EGLS probably isn't a company they'd want to work with in the future.

Once I saw Patrick Klepek in the thread, that's how you know that "it just got real."

[Hawkn]

For some reason, the OP reminds me a lot of spam emails I get on a regular basis now that I re-read it.

Also, last I heard, Runic just sicced their lawyers on Apple and EGLS today.

[Akiratech]

aww damn didn't see that ,hilarious, but still want torchlight for my ipad still so maybe we the gamers get a silver lining out of this and not spend money on a ripoff

[andsoitgoes]

This thread deserves an award. Eli, please? Can you make that happen??

As I said in the AH thread, the one good thing that came from this was the fact that ir turned me, and probably a few others, ONTO Torchlight. I don't know about anyone else, but those 1200 MSP were never better spent. As far as AH, yeah. Uh huh. You keep trying to justify it. Shame the People behind Diablo and Fate decided to bring their creations forward.

If I had a good ASCII facepalm, this is where I'd use it.

[ArtNJ]

They are just testing out the double speak that they will use to stall apple for a bit and getting free press from Touch Arcade. Considering they stole the assets and made this for peanuts, how long do they really need to stall Apple to make a profit?

They are probably reading this thread taking notes. "Ok, got it, dont mention Fate to Apple...Maybe we can throw Everquest in there? Yeah, that might work!"

[paulishuku]

Guys, this response has to be a random troll and not someone who directly works for EGLS. Using FATE and Diablo as examples is just stupidity. I wouldn't take this response too seriously unless he can honestly be confirmed.

[Akiratech]

i think the main thing was if this game existed before on the mobile space then ppl wopuld have been like its a ripoff dont buy it (hence the angry birds rip-offs but the fact there are not much games that resemble this rip-off makes ppl want to side with the scam artist just to play the game in the end result, players just want to play games the same as when you go to buy that non-fair trade coffee in the morning :cool:

[Eli]

Guys, this response has to be a random troll and not someone who directly works for EGLS. Using FATE and Diablo as examples is just stupidity. I wouldn't take this response too seriously unless he can honestly be confirmed.

It's posted via a Chinese IP after registering using an email address from http://g2us.com .

If it's not real, it's one hell of a troll.

[Blackharon]

It's posted via a Chinese IP after registering using an email address from http://g2us.com .

If it's not real, it's one hell of a troll.

Plus - it's been promoting this when it was still in the upcoming games thread.

[RobotArcade]

If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher.

Have you ever considered that the "men you're walking with" are trying to teach you that stealing is wrong?

[stlredbird]

I was going to post this on the front page but I can't figure out how to post using my TA ID.

I'm with Hodap on this one. At first I was like, who cares, a lot of developers copy others and this looked really cool (never heard of Torchlight). Then you see that the sound assets were directly ripped and I just can't support that no matter how much I want to play the game.

[Delusionaltool]

I'd be happy to talk about these allegations in a more formal capacity, EGLS. My attempts to reach your company have so far been unsuccessful.

Please get in touch.


--
patrick klepek
news editor, giant bomb
patrick@giantbomb.com

hahah, welcome to the foray Patrick i am a premium giant-bomb member. you guys always rock the house. Patrick you have been awesome addition to the GB crew you have some very good articles and this kind of article is right up your ally. I hope you can get a story out on this...

Egls you straight took the assets from torchlight you cant deny it, the pictures posted by Runic is so blatant obvious , once again ASSets you being the ass of the ets (you see what i did there hah). I mean even the sound files have the same name and miss-spellings, i know your english is bad but come on now ROFL, i mean Ive seen some stuff in the apple store but this might take the cake for me, the cake is not a lie Egls you are the cake and you will be eaten by runic and their lawyers.

[MrSpud]

Wow! This is getting interesting! About the first post, this is one of those moment where it would have been better not to say anything. Here's my analogy...

Someone steals my car, I find that person and confront them. They tell me that's is not my car because that one is a different color! And it's got a brand new cupholder!!

Anyway, Apple will have the final word...

[MattyFTM]

I'd be happy to talk about these allegations in a more formal capacity, EGLS. My attempts to reach your company have so far been unsuccessful.

Please get in touch.


--
patrick klepek
news editor, giant bomb
patrick@giantbomb.com

Always looking for those hot scoopz, Patrick!!

[sabin1981]

Someone steals my car, I find that person and confront them. They tell me that's is not my car because that one is a different color! And it's got a brand new cupholder!!


Nice analogy! :D


Anyway, Apple will have the final word...

Let's just hope it's the right word. It wouldn't be the first time Apple continued to allow the sale of a game that was pretty much stolen almost pixel-for-pixel (coughzyngacough)

[Irishbrewed]

This just goes to show any ahole can make a mobile game... Thank you TB for pointing this fail on top of fail thread out...so much win

[florendas]

Man I hope Apple bans these guys because I bet there are a bunch of Chinese devs thinking about doing this kind of thing on iOS not that its available in China. Next time they won't release their clone in the west just in the Chinese App stores then how will we notice.

[backtothis]

Give it a day. Someone's about to get steamrolled by the power of the internet/mass media. Not sure what's more pathetic: the terribly attempted defense in the OP or the plagiarism.

Edit: By the way, if you still don't have Torchlight, hurry up and get it on Steam/XBLA/etc. The sequel will be out soon. Amazing dungeon crawler.

[Wizard_Mike]

Man I hope Apple bans these guys because I bet there are a bunch of Chinese devs thinking about doing this kind of thing on iOS not that its available in China. Next time they won't release their clone in the west just in the Chinese App stores then how will we notice.

That's actually the scary part of this all. If they got away with this, it would open the floodgates of copy/paste money grabs and completely ruin iOS as a valid gamer's market. iOS already deals with plenty of copycat devs, allowing actual copy/paste jobs would tank the whole market.

So yeah, Apple really needs to make the right choice here...

[florendas]

That's actually the scary part of this all. If they got away with this, it would open the floodgates of copy/paste money grabs and completely ruin iOS as a valid gamer's market. iOS already deals with plenty of copycat devs, allowing actual copy/paste jobs would tank the whole market.

So yeah, Apple really needs to make the right choice here...

I hope an Apple person is reading this.

[squarezero]

Nice analogy! :D



Let's just hope it's the right word. It wouldn't be the first time Apple continued to allow the sale of a game that was pretty much stolen almost pixel-for-pixel (coughzyngacough)
No, it isn't. Plagiarism is not the same thing as stealing. If you want a proper analogy, it's like a writer getting caught quoting from another person's work without attribution and claiming that 1) most of my book isn't plagiarized and 2) the work I plagiarized borrowed from the same sources I did. It's obviously inane, but the response is not dissimilar to those of well-regarded writers who have been caught doing the same thing that EGLS did (not to mention the thousands of college students in the US who plagiarize every day).

BTW I don't mean to minimize EGLS sin here: a few years ago I did a Google search on one of my clients and found a jerk in NY who claimed to have designed a very prominent website that I'd done -- he even took the screenshots from my portfolio website. It pissed me off to no end, particularly because I had clients in NY myself, and if they'd seen this guy's website they could has though I was the one who was full of crap.

My point is that we don't need to come up with bullcrap analogies to make what EGLS did sound worse than what it is.

[Delusionaltool]

I hope an Apple person is reading this.

apple passes copies all the time even fake apps, like mario or nintendo games poor contra ports someone tries to pull fast ones and some how it always makes it past apple.

[Delusionaltool]

hahah, welcome to the foray Patrick i am a premium giant-bomb member. you guys always rock the house. Patrick you have been awesome addition to the GB crew you have some very good articles and this kind of article is right up your ally. I hope you can get a story out on this...

Egls you straight took the assets from torchlight you cant deny it, the pictures posted by Runic is so blatant obvious , once again ASSets you being the ass of the ets (you see what i did there hah). I mean even the sound files have the same name and miss-spellings, i know your english is bad but come on now ROFL, i mean Ive seen some stuff in the apple store but this might take the cake for me, the cake is not a lie Egls you are the cake and you will be eaten by runic and their lawyers.

man got a tough crowd i thought i was being funny and true also not even a peep i must be loosing my touch in my old age of 33.

[florendas]

man got a tough crowd i thought i was being funny and true also not even a peep i must be loosing my touch in my old age of 33.

*slow handed clap*...?

[Delusionaltool]

*slow handed clap*...?

heyyyyyyyyyyyyy! :), the bottom line is this Egls plagiarized Runic , when runic showed images that are straight from there game even the colors are the same, and the stab to end it all is the sound files using the same names complete with improper spelling, when i read that i LOL! sorry Egls your argument is invalid here, just admit the fact what you have done and end this, cease and desist save you money from lawyers and pull out before its too late.

p.s. - Egls in your argument you talk about Fate which was the predecessor to Torchlight the same guy wrote it, also the Diablo 2 stuff made me laugh cause some of the guys that made that also made Torchlight... Just call the game Torchlight heroes and be done with it. Also there is Wikipedia

- Development of the game was led by Travis Baldree, designer of Fate, joined by Max Schaefer and Erich Schaefer (co-designers of Diablo and Diablo II), and the team that worked with Baldree on the original incarnation of Mythos. Runic Games has announced a sequel Torchlight II, planned for release on PC in 2012.

[Joltrabbit]

Torchlight was created by Max and Erich Schaefer (who were the creators of Diablo and the designers of Diablo 1 and 2) and Travis Baldree (who was the designer of Fate). It's not surprising that they drew inspiration from mechanics of their previous games. However, it is surprising that someone would try and justify wholesale theft of audio-visual assets on that basis.

My thoughts, too. I was trying to stay middle of the road (which may be reeeeeally difficult soon).

[Kikekun]

Kudos to Runic for handling this so elegantly.
As an artist myself I would be completely out of my mind and pissed as hell if that would happen to us with any of our games.
I hope Apple does the right thing here and removes Armed Heroes from the App Store at least until they learn to make their own assets.

[florendas]

heyyyyyyyyyyyyy! :), the bottom line is this Egls plagiarized Runic , when runic showed images that are straight from there game even the colors are the same, and the stab to end it all is the sound files using the same names complete with improper spelling, when i read that i LOL! sorry Egls your argument is invalid here, just admit the fact what you have done and end this, cease and desist save you money from lawyers and pull out before its too late.

p.s. - Egls in your argument you talk about Fate which was the predecessor to Torchlight the same guy wrote it, also the Diablo 2 stuff made me laugh cause some of the guys that made that also made Torchlight... Just call the game Torchlight heroes and be done with it.

:) Their Argument is invalid. Agreed!!

* stands up and claps* ...?

[talimorrigan]

But...it's so much more cost effective to just re-use yours.
I mean after all, you know how expensive it is to get art made in CHINA? What, do you want them to have to outsource it all?

I'm lolling hard on this situation, I can't for the love of all that is torchy understand how they can defend stealing from Runic.

But on serious note; Why would they create anything original? Why break that trend in china, have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there? :P Time to clone the molds of Playstation 3 and call it Polystation :P

[Delusionaltool]

Kudos to Runic for handling this so elegantly.
As an artist myself I would be completely out of my mind and pissed as hell if that would happen to us with any of our games.
I hope Apple does the right thing here and removes Armed Heroes from the App Store at least until they learn to make their own assets.

all plagiarism aside KIKEKUN when is Supermagical hitting i am chomping at the bit and it will be nice to play a game without stolen assets!

[Skillmaster19]

What needs to be be done is actually look at the unexported blender or whatever the company is using files and all that to see if they really produced it on their own...


The graphics definitely look similar. A little too similar. I wouldn't be suprised if the EGLS had the torchlight models open on one screen, and created their own on another monitor, closely trying to replicate them. This technically isn't against the law or against what Runic Games considers their standards based on what they said. but this cant be proven. Look at the house in the example picture, the one in torchlight has several logs, the one in AOH has much fewer. This cannot be a result of reducing polygon count or different shaders. The plant also has holes in completely different locations. This cannot result from lowering the vertices in a model. eyes of the goblin are very different in size, much larger in one of them.http://i.imgur.com/oApgZ.jpg

The graphics are certainly very similar and obviously based off of torchlight, but not stolen.

you need to zoom in and look carefully to see differences in fine detail. This is because of the originally poor resolution

[sabin1981]

@squarezero

EGLS physically took the audio and visuals files from one game, then inserted them into their own. That's as much theft as it is plagiarism. They're not just claiming responsibility for someone else's work, like what happened to you with that jerk who claimed to have made a website that you had done, but rather they took the physical creation of someone else and used it in their software... and THEN they claimed it was theirs. Wouldn't that pretty much make it a combination of theft and plagiarism? EGLS didn't just take the idea (which is what plagiarism boils down to) they took the product as well.

@skillmaster

For the love of god, just STOP. Okay? Just stop trying to pick and find excuses, stop trying to justify what EGLS has done just because you're annoyed about the possibility of the game being removed from the store. You're embarrassing yourself and giving the users on this site a bad name.

[squarezero]

I'm lolling hard on this situation, I can't for the love of all that is torchy understand how they can defend stealing from Runic.

But on serious note; Why would they create anything original? Why break that trend in china, have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there? :P Time to clone the molds of Playstation 3 and call it Polystation :P
You mean besides the Apple product you are holding in your hand? :p

How about the old Hong Kong film industry, ruthlessly plundered by Western filmmakers and game developers (Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs took entire scenes from City on Fire).

Let's avoid racist generalizations and focus on the matter at hand.

[Xexist]

Their response is pretty much the definition of 'Smoke and mirrors'

[Skillmaster19]

@squarezero

EGLS physically took the audio and visuals files from one game, then inserted them into their own. That's as much theft as it is plagiarism. They're not just claiming responsibility for someone else's work, like what happened to you with that jerk who claimed to have made a website that you had done, but rather they took the physical creation of someone else and used it in their software... and THEN they claimed it was theirs. Wouldn't that pretty much make it a combination of theft and plagiarism? EGLS didn't just take the idea (which is what plagiarism boils down to) they took the product as well.

@skillmaster

For the love of god, just STOP. Okay? Just stop trying to pick and find excuses, stop trying to justify what EGLS has done just because you're annoyed about the possibility of the game being removed from the store. You're embarrassing yourself and giving the users on this site a bad name.
There is no way they directly took the visuals from the game, the claims that they just recolored textures/reduced polygons mixed with new shaders isn't a valid claim. Look ad the differences, the overall designs don't matchup with a reduction of vertices in a model. The plant has holes in compeltely different locations.

[sabin1981]

I don't care what you say, Runic have already flat-out stated that EGLS took the same models. I'll take the word over Runic than some already-proven-to-be-shady Chinese cloners.

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=2350959&postcount=15
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=2349850&postcount=156
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=2346024&postcount=57 << Damning.
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=2345685&postcount=40 << Even more damning if you know anything about modelling and visual work.

[florendas]

There is no way they directly took the visuals from the game, the claims that they just recolored textures/reduced polygons mixed with new shaders isn't a valid claim. Look ad the differences, the overall designs don't matchup with a reduction of vertices in a model. The plant has holes in compeltely different locations.

Thats not a poly thing.

its a transparent texture
http://bencrowder.net/art/blender-quicktips/transparent-textures/

[Kikekun]

all plagiarism aside KIKEKUN when is Supermagical hitting i am chomping at the bit and it will be nice to play a game without stolen assets!

Lol...soon my friend, soon...

[Delusionaltool]

What needs to be be done is actually look at the unexported blender or whatever the company is using files and all that to see if they really produced it on their own...


The graphics definitely look similar. A little too similar. I wouldn't be suprised if the EGLS had the torchlight models open on one screen, and created their own on another monitor, closely trying to replicate them. This technically isn't against the law or against what Runic Games considers their standards based on what they said. but this cant be proven. Look at the house in the example picture, the one in torchlight has several logs, the one in AOH has much fewer. This cannot be a result of reducing polygon count or different shaders. The plant also has holes in completely different locations. This cannot result from lowering the vertices in a model. eyes of the goblin are very different in size, much larger in one of them.http://i.imgur.com/oApgZ.jpg

The graphics are certainly very similar and obviously based off of torchlight, but not stolen.

correct but can you explain the same sound files including the messed up spelling ripped right from torchlight and put in their game, i get copying the art but the exact same colors is just how can i say this redonkulous!

[PrayForDeath]

This post from EGLS is rather pathetic. They dodged all the accusations and presented irrelevant "evidence". I expect the game to be taken down any minute.

[squarezero]

@squarezero

EGLS physically took the audio and visuals files from one game, then inserted them into their own. That's as much theft as it is plagiarism. They're not just claiming responsibility for someone else's work, like what happened to you with that jerk who claimed to have made a website that you had done, but rather they took the physical creation of someone else and used it in their software... and THEN they claimed it was theirs. Wouldn't that pretty much make it a combination of theft and plagiarism? EGLS didn't just take the idea (which is what plagiarism boils down to) they took the product as well.

@skillmaster

For the love of god, just STOP. Okay? Just stop trying to pick and find excuses, stop trying to justify what EGLS has done just because you're annoyed about the possibility of the game being removed from the store. You're embarrassing yourself and giving the users on this site a bad name.
Plagiarism is taking someone's work and "physically" (whatever that means in a digital medium) inserting into yours without attribution. Runic still owns Torchlight; EGLS are not depriving them of it, through clearly they are profiting from their work, which is at the core of the legal and moral definition of theft. Using someone else's "ideas" is not plagiarism; in many instances is not even ethically wrong. Plagiarism is about taking the expression of an idea and copying it word for word or altered only cosmetically. That's what EGLS did.

[metalslime]

There is no way they directly took the visuals from the game, the claims that they just recolored textures/reduced polygons mixed with new shaders isn't a valid claim. Look ad the differences, the overall designs don't matchup with a reduction of vertices in a model. The plant has holes in compeltely different locations.

Even if they didn't "steal" the actual models and assets, you're still not allowed to copy someone else's IP. If I redraw Mario with the red hat, mustache, and overalls in my way and put him in a game and called him something else, I'm pretty sure Nintendo would file a cease & desist and I'd lose if taken to court. Give credit where credit is deserved and EGLS needs to stop denying the truth.

[Wizard_Mike]

There is no way they directly took the visuals from the game, the claims that they just recolored textures/reduced polygons mixed with new shaders isn't a valid claim. Look ad the differences, the overall designs don't matchup with a reduction of vertices in a model. The plant has holes in compeltely different locations.

You're completely ignoring the sound files they copy/pasted right out of the torchlight files. They didn't even bother to change the names of the sound files they stole!

I mean come on...

Is that a valid enough claim for you?

[tbaldree]

Moving the holes in the leaf texture takes seconds. They're just blobs of black in the alpha channel.
Most of the textures have been minorly retouched, I guess in some sort of minimal effort to make them feel 'different' -

The amount of effort it would take to replicate these assets from scratch with the perfectly matched proportions and structure would be triple what it would take to just make their own assets. It just makes no sense.

The fact that the sound effects are direct rips further reinforces the obvious conclusion that all of these assets are rips with minor poly reduction and texture tweaks.

Especially when you combine it with the fact that the Tilesets are also rips. And the monsters appear in the same tilesets, using the same sounds, and with the same animations. Those goblin death animations are identical to ours.

The idea that they've just carefully observed every proportion, texture, and vertex and somehow recreated it with this level of fidelity is completely implausible.

There's more than one building type in the Torchlight town. The reason that one in the shot doesn't perfectly match up is because it is a frankenstein of multiple Torchlight town building parts. Because they were made of intersecting chunks of geometry, it's really, really simple to twiddle around the bits to make new buildings. We know. We built it that way on purpose so that we could make new buildings. :P

[Delusionaltool]

i think skillmaster works for EGLS hahahaha, kidding, dont worry a game like this will come out soon...no need to defend these blatant plagiarizers who cant even do proper research before defending themselves , Runic is a much bigger company and its going to devour EGLS in lawsuits. Just do a wikipedia search on torchlight, Runic already wins from the wikipedia and as i said before makes Egls argument invalid, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!!!

p.s. WOOOOT 1000 POST!

[sabin1981]

I guess we have different definitions on what constitutes a PRODUCT and what constitutes an IDEA then. Because from where I'm sitting, this is looking more like theft than just simple plagiarism.

http://sophia.smith.edu/~jmoulton/plagiarism.pdf

If you ask me, the whole definition needs to be expanded to include the digital age. It's not just about paintings and thoughts and ideas and sentences, now it's about "physical" (yeah, yeah, I know.. but there's no other word for it) aspects, such as 3D models, 2D textures, musical compositions. In the end we're both disagreeing over what basically boils down to the same thing -- whether you call it theft or plagiarism, the fact is EGLS took someone else's work, inserted it into their product and then called it their own.

@tbaldree

Your composure and restraint is staggering, it really is. I feel my OWN blood boiling over the brazen cheek (and cowardly defence) of what's happened... and I didn't have any hand in their creation, haha. You must have the patience of a saint and I hope Apple do the right thing. Then, I also hope EGLs learn from this -- take the existing base of their, supposedly enjoyable, game... and then make it over properly. Use their own, or outsourced, assets and then come back with a legitimate entry that people can enjoy without infringing on the artistic merit of others. It's obvious people are enjoying the game (psst Travis.. TorchLITE! :P) so do it over, do it properly, sell a product that they can be proud of AND that people can enjoy.

[Delusionaltool]

@tbaldree

Your composure and restraint is staggering, it really is. I feel my OWN blood boiling over the brazen cheek (and cowardly defence) of what's happened... and I didn't have any hand in their creation, haha. You must have the patience of a saint and I hope Apple do the right thing. Then, I also hope EGLs learn from this -- take existing basis of their, supposedly enjoyable, game... and then make it over properly. Use their own, or outsourced, assets and then come back with a legitimate entry that people can enjoy without infringing on the artistic merit of others.

i have seen something like this before on this forum, i forget the game, but the art assets were supposedly outsourced to a third party and it turned out the third party had ripped off some other games assets and the main dev had no idea till you guys on this forum called him out on it and showed screens from the ripped off game, could that be the case here? Are the Tgls artists outsourced third party?

[tbaldree]

i have seen something like this before on this forum, i forget the game, but the art assets were supposedly outsourced to a third party and it turned out the third party had ripped off some other games assets and the main dev had no idea till you guys on this forum called him out on it and it turned out to be case, could that be the case here?

That's not the case here. While we outsourced some artwork, many of the assets on display here ( and obviously, the sounds ), were created in-house.

Our assets aren't difficult to get at - Torchlight is a moddable game, and they are pretty easy to mess with on purpose - but our terms of use for the SDK and assets prohibit using them for monetary gain.

[Delusionaltool]

That's not the case here. While we outsourced some artwork, many of the assets on display here ( and obviously, the sounds ), were created in-house.

Our assets aren't difficult to get at - Torchlight is a moddable game, and they are pretty easy to mess with on purpose - but our terms of use for the SDK and assets prohibit using them for monetary gain.

So your saying you did use the original models since its so easy modded? How can you explain the sound files being exactly the same as torchlight same names which includes the bad spelling? you guys are digging your self a grave here, Runic is massive compared to you guys, they been in the game a while, you don't have a case here. Tgls could get shut down with all the money they could get you for, your best play here is stop making excuses change up the assets make them your own , fix the game so Runic does not destroy your company and save your self some money alot of money which could potentially close you down.

You say your self your not allowed to use for monetary gain? but you are if the game costs money or if its free with iaps what money is made is being made with Torchlight models and sound? you say the sound is done in house , how can that be? you took torchlight and extracted the sounds in house that's what i see here, theft and plagiarism....

[PrayForDeath]

@tbaldree

Your composure and restraint is staggering, it really is.

Agreed. Hat's off to you sir.

[Steffe]

So your saying you did use the original models since its so easy modded? How can you explain the sound files being exactly the same as torchlight same names which includes the bad spelling? you guys are digging your self a grave here, Runic is massive compared to you guys, they been in the game a while, you don't have a case here. Tgls could get shut down with all the money they could get you for, your best play here is stop making excuses change up the assets make them your own , fix the game so Runic does not destroy your company and save your self some money alot of money which could potentially close you down.

Shame he's one of the devs from Runic then ;(

[sabin1981]

Hahaha, I think DelusionalTool might have quoted the wrong person... or perhaps got a few wires crossed somewhere :D

[PrayForDeath]

So your saying you did use the original models since its so easy modded? How can you explain the sound files being exactly the same as torchlight same names which includes the bad spelling? you guys are digging your self a grave here, Runic is massive compared to you guys, they been in the game a while, you don't have a case here. Tgls could get shut down with all the money they could get you for, your best play here is stop making excuses change up the assets make them your own , fix the game so Runic does not destroy your company and save your self some money alot of money which could potentially close you down.

You aren't talking to EGLS, lol.

[Delusionaltool]

hahahahah i thought TBALD worked for EGLS, im at work i might of missed a post but whatever!!! I see now WOOOPS, TBALD worked or works for runic, i got delusional there hahaha, but we can repeat over and over, egls is in the wrong simple....

[sabin1981]

hahahahah i thought TBALD worked for EGLS, im at work i might of missed a post but whatever!!! I see now WOOOPS, TBALD works for runic, i got delusional there hahaha

Naw man, Tbaldree is a portmanteau of "Travis Baldree" - the creator of FATE and (co?)founder of Runic, also creator of Torchlight :D

[talimorrigan]

You mean besides the Apple product you are holding in your hand? :p

How about the old Hong Kong film industry, ruthlessly plundered by Western filmmakers and game developers (Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs took entire scenes from City on Fire).

Let's avoid racist generalizations and focus on the matter at hand.

that's not racism. Only facts.

Also, who designed and created the know-how to make it? Apple, China is simply making them. And we know how those molds leak and end up in other places... :rolleyes:

The difference is, one takes the story and base on it, and create original things. The other actually ripping off, duplicating, and even using leaked out molds or any other items or even directly copying things.

[Delusionaltool]

Naw man, Tbaldree is a portmanteau of "Travis Baldree" - the creator of FATE and (co?)founder of Runic, also creator of Torchlight :D

yayayayaya :) i get it :)....but he gets what i mean that was for EGLS.... i hate companies that pull this crap and think they can get away with it...

[squarezero]

I guess we have different definitions on what constitutes a PRODUCT and what constitutes an IDEA then. Because from where I'm sitting, this is looking more like theft than just simple plagiarism.

http://sophia.smith.edu/~jmoulton/plagiarism.pdf

If you ask me, the whole definition needs to be expanded to include the digital age. It's not just about paintings and thoughts and ideas and sentences, now it's about "physical" (yeah, yeah, I know.. but there's no other word for it) aspects, such as 3D models, 2D textures, musical compositions. In the end we're both disagreeing over what basically boils down to the same thing -- whether you call it theft or plagiarism, the fact is EGLS took someone else's work, inserted it into their product and then called it their own.

@tbaldree

Your composure and restraint is staggering, it really is. I feel my OWN blood boiling over the brazen cheek (and cowardly defence) of what's happened... and I didn't have any hand in their creation, haha. You must have the patience of a saint and I hope Apple do the right thing. Then, I also hope EGLs learn from this -- take the existing base of their, supposedly enjoyable, game... and then make it over properly. Use their own, or outsourced, assets and then come back with a legitimate entry that people can enjoy without infringing on the artistic merit of others. It's obvious people are enjoying the game (psst Travis.. TorchLITE! :P) so do it over, do it properly, sell a product that they can be proud of AND that people can enjoy.
That article is making an argument as to why plagiarism is wrong. When you make a moral argument is not uncommon to say that "something" is like "something" else (or that one thing is a form of another thing). So yeah, you can argue that plagiarism is like theft, or even that it is "a form" of theft. But it isn't actually theft: you don't get 2-5 years for plagiarizing a term paper; you won't find a single religious text that says that using someone's work without attribution is a sin (that would be a hoot, since religious texts plagiarize unapologetically).

Ultimately, plagiarisim is an offense against an ethical system we have deviced to remunerate creative work. In the scope of human history, the idea that authors "own" their work is a fairly recent. The idea that you own an object that you make or purchase is a much older concept. If I take that object from you I deprive you of your use of it. If I copy your artwork and pass it off as my own, I may threaten your ability to profit from said artwork (since I can directly compete with you in the marketplace without putting as much effort as you did), I may be lowering the value of your original creation, but I'm not depriving you of the artwork itself. It may be wrong, but it does not meet the criteria for actual theft.

You could argue, however, that plagiarism is a form of fraud. But that's another can of worms ;).

[tbaldree]

So your saying you did use the original models since its so easy modded? How can you explain the sound files being exactly the same as torchlight same names which includes the bad spelling? you guys are digging your self a grave here, Runic is massive compared to you guys, they been in the game a while, you don't have a case here. Tgls could get shut down with all the money they could get you for, your best play here is stop making excuses change up the assets make them your own , fix the game so Runic does not destroy your company and save your self some money alot of money which could potentially close you down.

Wait, what? I'm from Runic. I'm the one who is making the complaint.

[edit]ok, I see you figured it out :)

[Delusionaltool]

Wait, what? I'm from Runic. I'm the one who is making the complaint.

[edit]ok, I see you figured it out :)

I KNOW MAN!!!! rofl as i said i got delusional, im at work just missed something there... im sorry!!!!! but if you worked for Egls it would of been a doozy! haha

[sabin1981]

Not to disparage the rest of your post (like I said, we're pretty much just "fighting" over different definitions of the same outcome) but..

In the scope of human history, the idea that authors "own" their work is a fairly recent. The idea that you own an object that you make or purchase is a much older concept.

That's why I believe the definitions of "theft" and also of "plagiarism" need to be updated and brought up to modern, digital age, standards. The developers and engineers created the audio files, textures and models just as much as engineers create the engines in a Boeing 747. We may be in a digital age now, but the product is no less real because of it. Any way, like I said, I don't disagree with you on any one point except the definition of what EGLS did. So rather than cluttering up the thread with our back and forth, let's just drop it and agree on one thing; what they did was wrong :D

[Darth Ronfar]

This kind of stuff is happening all over the app store.People trying to take someone elses work, adjust things around, then plop on a different title and call it their own.

Don't understand why people are talking as if these criminals are going to get a warning and then go back to their game and try again. The only thing keeping this from a serious case of theft to be dealt with is the location. If this were in this Country these people would be facing a giant lawsuit and potentially Jail time or other serious consequences.


If they dont crackdown hard on it now, as an example, It is just going to keep on happening.

I feel like some Foriegn people are trying to swindle us Americans but they fail terribly. Just the wording alone is way to obvious, anyone born with English as their first language can just tell. However it should stay focused on the issue at hand and not go any further. People from around the world post on these forums without any prejudice...

[squarezero]

that's not racism. Only facts.

Also, who designed and created the know-how to make it? Apple, China is simply making them. And we know how those molds leak and end up in other places... :rolleyes:

The difference is, one takes the story and base on it, and create original things. The other actually ripping off, duplicating, and even using leaked out molds or any other items or even directly copying things.
Dude, you are making an absolute statement that is both clearly wrong and racist. Keep it up and you will be banned (by me).

[squarezero]

Not to disparage the rest of your post (like I said, we're pretty much just "fighting" over different definitions of the same outcome) but..



That's why I believe the definitions of "theft" and also of "plagiarism" need to be updated and brought up to modern, digital age, standards. The developers and engineers created the audio files, textures and models just as much as engineers create the engines in a Boeing 747. We may be in a digital age now, but the product is no less real because of it. Any way, like I said, I don't disagree with you on any one point except the definition of what EGLS did. So rather than cluttering up the thread with our back and forth, let's just drop it and agree on one thing; what they did was wrong :D
We can agree there ;).

[nfong]

Lol, just finished reading through this thread. There's no doubt that EGLS stole from Runic - hope Apple makes the right call and removes their game from the App Store

[Delusionaltool]

You mean besides the Apple product you are holding in your hand? :p

How about the old Hong Kong film industry, ruthlessly plundered by Western filmmakers and game developers (Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs took entire scenes from City on Fire).

Let's avoid racist generalizations and focus on the matter at hand.

Square that is interesting as Quentin is one of my fav directors, he is a huge fan of Hong Kong cinema, I dont know if he stole that per se maybe paying homage to it in his film , he does alot of that but i get your saying...

check this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_dogs

even explains city of fire..

[Skillmaster19]

Even if they didn't "steal" the actual models and assets, you're still not allowed to copy someone else's IP. If I redraw Mario with the red hat, mustache, and overalls in my way and put him in a game and called him something else, I'm pretty sure Nintendo would file a cease & desist and I'd lose if taken to court. Give credit where credit is deserved and EGLS needs to stop denying the truth.
Look at Graal online, graphics were a huge clone of zelda and never got sued. They got into trouble once for originally calling it Zelda online but never since renaming it. Look at the original graphics of Graal Online. The iPhone version decided to make a new tileset, but look at pics1 and see what I mean. recolored set.

Also updated my OP at the end of page 6 with a new image comparing the graphics Runic Games themselves posted.

[sabin1981]

It's offensive to even look at your posts. Thank god for an ignore list.

[metalslime]

Look at Graal online, graphics were a huge clone of zelda and never got sued. They got into trouble once for originally calling it Zelda online but never since renaming it. Look at the original graphics of Graal Online. The iPhone version decided to make a new tileset, but look at pics1 and see what I mean. recolored set.


So just cause Graal online did it without major lawsuit makes it okay? I don't understand the logic here...

[Delusionaltool]

Look at Graal online, graphics were a huge clone of zelda and never got sued. They got into trouble once for originally calling it Zelda online but never since renaming it. Look at the original graphics of Graal Online. The iPhone version decided to make a new tileset, but look at pics1 and see what I mean. recolored set.

Also updated my OP at the end of page 6 with a new image comparing the graphics Runic Games themselves posted.

I'm kinda confused! You are sure you don't work for EGLS? I mean fine the graphics are not EXACT but they are almost identical minus some differences, adding a model from torchlight and giving him a bow and arrow does not make a difference your just adding to a torchlight model.... What point are you trying to make im not seeing it, argue about the graphics all you want they also took the sounds directly from torchlight they even have the same misspelling this is not coincidence!

[Wizard_Mike]

Look at Graal online, graphics were a huge clone of zelda and never got sued. They got into trouble once for originally calling it Zelda online but never since renaming it.

Also updated my OP at the end of page 6 with a new image comparing the graphics Runic Games themselves posted.

Cloning and copying files are two completely different things.

If I made a game that was a Super Mario Bros clone, that's all fine and good (so long as it wasn't infringing on the legally protected IP of Nintendo). But if I took the actual sprites and sound files from Super Mario Bros (not recreated them, but the actual files) and plugged them into my clone, it's blatant theft, even if I modify the files a little bit.

Armored Heros did not clone Torchlight. They straight up used files from Torchlight. There's no justification that makes this ok, not even the twiddling of the models to make them look a little different.

[florendas]

Cloning and copying files are two completely different things.

If I made a game that was a Super Mario Bros clone, that's all fine and good (so long as it wasn't infringing on the legally protected IP of Nintendo). But if I took the actual sprites and sound files from Super Mario Bros (not recreated them, but the actual files) and plugged them into my clone, it's blatant theft, even if I modify the files a little bit.

Armored Heros did not clone Torchlight. They straight up used files from Torchlight. There's no justification that makes this ok, not even the twiddling of the models to make them look a little different.

+1 and even if its wasn't a game like theirs using the art from Torchlight directly is the part thats not ok.

[Skillmaster19]

I'm kinda confused! You are sure you don't work for EGLS? I mean fine the graphics are not EXACT but they are almost identical minus some differences, adding a model from torchlight and giving him a bow and arrow does not make a difference your just adding to a torchlight model.... What point are you trying to make im not seeing it, argue about the graphics all you want they also took the sounds directly from torchlight they even have the same misspelling this is not coincidence!
I don't work for EGLS... I'm 16 and live in the USA... a TA admin could confirm I log in from a USA IP and registered with a yahoo mail...

I do admit I play Armed Heroes Online and am on EGLS's side in the argument though...

[Rocotilos]

Now I'm not sure I'm reading this right but from what I'm seeing

Runic: "You stole our art!"

EGLS: "We totally wrote the code ourselves!"

Or hmm, for the sake of having fun...

Bank: "You stole our money!"

Robber: "I paid for that getaway car fair and square!"

^^^ THIS is exactly what I got from reading the first post as well.

It is kinda like my 6 yo daughter's excuses for writing on the wall.
She'd say "because there are no more spaces on the paper".
(just make anything up and hope for the best)

lol

But personally I feel Serena Zhang is insulting the whole forum members' intelligence with that post. :(

[Connector]

This is kind of an interesting situation with so many different countries involved. Seems like companies from Canada, US, and China are involved, and because of that it seems almost impossible to go to court since the internet is now global. In China, software piracy is rampant and tolerated, so what works for them there, wouldn't hold up here.

So I don't really see anything being done in any courts, seems like Apple itself is the ultimate judge and executioner. But this seems to put Apple in a very bad spot. There are TONS of games that have issues with people using similar graphics or sounds, so would Apple want to have to hear every case of this?

Reading the first post, it seems very logical and using their pictures, you would think they didn't do anything wrong. Seeing the graphical pictures later, yes, there does seem to be something wrong, but we don't know the whole picture.

Then there is stuff that is thrown around about sound names, and other evidence that have to be considered. So these kinds of things are issues that are time consuming to figure out, and I could see Apple not really want to be a part of.

Personally, I do believe that the graphics assests were stolen, but to prove it in a court of law and to provide punishments in terms of royalties or prison time seem to be impossible. So I am curious to see what will happen because this is on an international stage, with Apple as the judge and jury.

[geoelectric]

I don't work for EGLS... I'm 16 and live in the USA... a TA admin could confirm I log in from a USA IP and registered with a yahoo mail...

I do admit I play Armed Heroes Online and am on EGLS's side in the argument though...

Dude, when you have Runic confirming EGLS used exact copies of the meshes and sound files for a significant number of assets, the argument is pretty much done. This isn't a matter of opinion thing where you're going to "win."

Travis Baldree's response in this has been phenomenal. I'm very happy to have been a fan of Baldree's games since FATE, and look very forward to buying many more in the future.

EGLS's response has been clumsy and insulting. They must truly think we're stupid enough to buy a complete misdirection. It's not even a matter of assuming naivete or good will; they truly didn't answer the argument and thought nobody would notice.

I just hope that we still know who EGLS is after they inevitably slink off and change the company name.

[sabin1981]

Then there is stuff that is thrown around about sound names, etc, that we don't have physical proof of. So these kinds of things are issues that are time consuming to figure out, and I could see Apple not really want to be a part of.



Anyone with a copy of Torchlight, a copy of WinZip, and a download of Armed Heroes can trivially verify this.


You were told how to verify it for yourself. There's plenty of physical proof.. stop being a puppet for EGLS.

[Skillmaster19]

But personally I feel Serena Zhang is insulting the whole forum members' intelligence with that post. :(

Or maybe he/she was trying to defend against the accusations about stealing assets with that post? Pretty much the entire community is convinced they stole the assets, do they not get a right to prove them wrong?

[Rocotilos]

Or maybe he/she was trying to defend against the accusations about stealing assets with that post? Pretty much the entire community is convinced they stole the assets, do they not get a right to prove them wrong?

Sure they have a right.

But when you're a thief and you got caught with a sack of jewelleries in your hands, er.. not sure about that right. :D

[jsrco]

Or maybe he/she was trying to defend against the accusations about stealing assets with that post? Pretty much the entire community is convinced they stole the assets, do they not get a right to prove them wrong?

They don't need to... Armed Heroes has them. Including the spelling errors in the name files that Torchlight had. Then they tried to use the excuse that what they did was ok because Torchlight was so similar to Diablo 2 and Fate.

Makes me wonder if you are trolling or just not reading what has been stated.

[Rocotilos]

They don't need to... Armed Heroes has them. Including the spelling errors in the name files that Torchlight had. Then they tried to use the excuse that what they did was ok because Torchlight was so similar to Diablo 2 and Fate.

Makes me wonder if you are trolling or just not reading what has been stated.

You must forgive him. He's probably 19 (from his id). And teenagers are rebelious by nature. Been there done that. :D

[Connector]

You were told how to verify it for yourself. There's plenty of physical proof.. stop being a puppet for EGLS.

Well, you apparently didn't read my post too well, I said it was in my opinion that the assets were stolen.

What I meant about the sound names evidence was it was not posted in this thread, so how can we use it as evidence? Anyway, I'm not pro EGLS, but to understand a whole story, you have to read the whole book. Just figuring everything out is hard here.

How you interpret my last post as being pro EGLS, I got no clue.

[tbaldree]

Or maybe he/she was trying to defend against the accusations about stealing assets with that post? Pretty much the entire community is convinced they stole the assets, do they not get a right to prove them wrong?

I provided comparisons and data. In response, they displayed unrelated models in an attempt to refute those claims without actually addressing them, and accused me of stealing ideas from my own game.

Haven't they been offered a chance and squandered it?

You seem hung up on small texture differences like the size of a goblin's eyes as proving the assets aren't rips - the eyes are a dot of texture. Increasing or decreasing the size is as simple as touching them with a 5 point brush in photoshop.

If the totality of all of these assets and the freely viewable sound manifest don't sway you, then I don't really know what to say to that, honestly.

[Wizard_Mike]

Or maybe he/she was trying to defend against the accusations about stealing assets with that post? Pretty much the entire community is convinced they stole the assets, do they not get a right to prove them wrong?

They didn't even attempt to prove them wrong, though.

Runic: "Hey, you stole our files!"

EGLS: "Nuh uh! Look at these other, different files."

Anyone with half a brain cell: "Um, can you address the files he's talking about?"

[Rocotilos]

It is quite a great "marketing" actually.

Those who want to verify the sound names, must buy the games. Instant profits! Now I wish someone would copy my game's asset. (link in my signature *wink* *wink*).

[sabin1981]

What I meant about the sound names evidence was it was not posted in this thread, so how can we use it as evidence?

What are you talking about? The sound name evidence was posted on the first PAGE! How can you first say "there's no physical proof" and then, when called out on it, say "well the evidence wasn't posted in this thread, so how can we use it as evidence?" (which is nuts in and of itself) despite the fact that yes, said evidence is posted on the very first page of the very thread we're talking in. How? What kind of fantastical logical processes are you running?

I'm... I mean... but....no, I'm sorry, you just broke my brain.

[Rocotilos]

tbaldtree,

I'd like to participate in verifying this. as for AH i'd probably can get the cracked version off google.

edit: scratch that.. just saw your homepage with demo download.

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

I thought the TA community was more responsible then this. I feel like killing my self. @skillmaster19 look kid. (I'm 16 too but it clearly shows your brain has yet to develop). You say they could have replicated the graphics. Ok fine. Let's say they did (hypothetically speaking) the graphics were created by ELGS but the sound files having the exact same names and corespond to each of the same monsters and such is more than enough proof of theft. If you don't understand that then please leave this conversation for the experts. The fact that ELGS has only made ONE post in this thread and has not responded to other claims tells us something. Oh and please remember you are supporting a developer/cheats/thieves that accused Runic for copying ideas FROM THEIR OWN GAMES when making torchlight the proof is in the very first post of this thread. Also this may be a bit immature for me but I'm kinda pissed off right now so I'll ask anyways. Skillmaster19, exactly what is ELGS giving you in compensation for su.cking their d1.cks so hard? And if you really want an Mmo game there is O&C which should last you a while until (hopefully) Travis and his crew make an official port for iOS. Also Travis I have no money at the moment but is there any way to support an awesome dev like you? I don't have torchlight either actually but it's peaked my interest in it. Also I apologize for this wall of Text this was my 2 cents.

~Ajay iOS YouTuber

[tbaldree]

tbaldtree,

I'd like to participate in verifying this. as for AH i'd probably can get the cracked version off google.

edit: scratch that.. just saw your homepage with demo download.

I want to say that the freely available torched download has all the assets loose already.

Otherwise you can browse the pak.zip file to see them.

[Connector]

What are you talking about? The sound name evidence was posted on the first PAGE! How can you first say "there's no physical proof" and then, when called out on it, say "well the evidence wasn't posted in this thread, so how can we use it as evidence?" (which is nuts in and of itself) despite the fact that yes, said evidence is posted on the very first page of the very thread we're talking in. How? What kind of fantastical logical processes are you running?

I'm... I mean... but....no, I'm sorry, you just broke my brain.

Well, why didn't you say so in your first reply to my post? You posted a quote saying you had to have both games, winzip, and upload the names. And I don't have any of those resources, so there was no way I could check.

You know I read through like 40 pages on the 2 threads, and I missed the post about the sound name data. So definately, with that, it does look worse. Anyway, the gist of my first post I still stand by, I will edit out the sound names part, but it will still show up on your quotes anyway.

Anyway, the graphic dumps were clear enough for me to have an opinion on this matter, so seeing the sound name data is even more damning. But I guess I will make it clear to you, I do not support what happened, plain and simple.

[lockeslylcrit]

Dude, you are making an absolute statement that is both clearly wrong and racist. Keep it up and you will be banned (by me).

Not defending the guy or anything, but...

That's not racism. It's ethnocentrism. AKA, the idea that your culture is superior to others, and/or other cultures are inferior to yours. Racism deals with biology, ethnocentrism deals with culture.
For example, if someone claims that products of China are inferior (in general), that would be ethnocentrism. But (and please don't ban me for using this example) if someone said that products of China were inferior because of the small eyes of Chinese, that would be racism.

Regardless, ethnocentrism no better than racism. Just wanted to point out this clarification. I'm finally putting my college major to work... by arguing on the internet. :D

[Rocotilos]

I'm finally putting my college major to work... by arguing on the internet. :D

..And opening a new account to do it. :D

[Connector]

This is kind of an interesting situation with so many different countries involved. Seems like companies from Canada, US, and China are involved, and because of that it seems almost impossible to go to court since the internet is now global. In China, software piracy is rampant and tolerated, so what works for them there, wouldn't hold up here.

So I don't really see anything being done in any courts, seems like Apple itself is the ultimate judge and executioner. But this seems to put Apple in a very bad spot. There are TONS of games that have issues with people using similar graphics or sounds, so would Apple want to have to hear every case of this?

Reading the first post, it seems very logical and using their pictures, you would think they didn't do anything wrong. Seeing the graphical pictures later, yes, there does seem to be something wrong, but we don't know the whole picture.

Then there is stuff that is thrown around about sound names, and other evidence that have to be considered. So these kinds of things are issues that are time consuming to figure out, and I could see Apple not really want to be a part of.

Personally, I do believe that the graphics assests were stolen, but to prove it in a court of law and to provide punishments in terms of royalties or prison time seem to be impossible. So I am curious to see what will happen because this is on an international stage, with Apple as the judge and jury.

Ok Sabin, hope you can see I changed my line about the sound names.

I got a question though for anyone knowledgable, other than Apple pulling the app, can this company be easily fined or sued since the companies are in different countries? Or would this just be a waste of time?

[lockeslylcrit]

..And opening a new account to do it. :D

What can I say? I'm passionate about argu- er, I mean "clarifying."

[sabin1981]

Well, why didn't you say so in your first reply to my post? You posted a quote saying you had to have both games, winzip, and upload the names. And I don't have any of those resources, so there was no way I could check.


I kind of figured you'd have read all the pages and seen the mod-posted quote from Travis (again, developer and creator of FATE/Torchlight) about the sound files and the instructions on how to verify for yourself. I didn't think to make it a proper linkable quote and I guess that was my bad, but still.... ;) Anyhow, just because you don't have those resources - doesn't mean the evidence ceases to exist.

But I guess I will make it clear to you, I do not support what happened, plain and simple.

Fair enough, it just sounded (at first) like you were playing devil's advocate to... well... the devil :P A devil who had been already been discredited and squandered his chance to defend himself, thus needing no advocate. I would understand if this was some baseless witch hunt.. but the existing evidence is not just compelling, it's outright damning.

As for suing? I don't think Travis (and, by extension, Runic) wants to sue -- they just want the game pulled, at least until all resources belonging to Travis/Runic are no longer part of the game. That's a pretty fair demand, a lot of other studios would have gotten the courts involved immediately. I guess if Apple and/or EGLS refuse to pull the game, that's when lawyers will start grinning and filing their teeth :D

[Wizard_Mike]

I'm finally putting my college major to work... by arguing on the internet. :D

What more noble use of an education could there be? ;)

[Connector]

What more noble use of an education could there be? ;)

Being a Moderator on Touch Arcade or better yet, the Sysop ;)

[lockeslylcrit]

What more noble use of an education could there be? ;)

Decoding the Mayan language, finding the true link between Homo and Australopithecus, being the only politician in the world who understands issues, compiling GIS works for the Forestry Serv- Oh crap, someone is wrong on the internet! My skills are finally needed! TO THE BATMOBILE!
;)

[Wizard_Mike]

As for suing? I don't think Travis (and, by extension, Runic) wants to sue -- they just want the game pulled, at least until all resources belonging to Travis/Runic are no longer part of the game. That's a pretty fair demand, a lot of other studios would have gotten the courts involved immediately. I guess if Apple and/or EGLS refuse to pull the game, that's when lawyers will start grinning and filing their teeth :D

I think that's something commendable on Runic's part. They aren't out for blood or trying to milk the situation for cash. They are simply trying to protect their own work.

That being said, I would not hold them in any less regard if they decided to change their mind and persue whatever form of legal action is available in this situation. Hopefully it won't come to that and Apple will simply pull the app, but if Runic has to hire a lawyer to protect their stuff, then so be it.

[Rocotilos]

So anyway, I downloaded the ipa from google search (for investigating purpose only).

As normal, I changed the ipa of Armed Heroes Online extension to zip extension. Then extracted it using The Unarchiver. A Folder is created. Going in, there is another folder called Payload, so I went in (using Finder), then, there are a bunch of sound_file#.mod files. Changing those to zip and extracted give me a big file of no extension. Ok fine. So I went and open sound_pkg.prop in TextEdit.

Here it is:

All the file names listed in this prop file is familiar. And lets scroll to the
prominent accusation by Runic... *drumroll*

http://i.imgur.com/oopw4.png

That's the misspell filename: mechdwardeath1.wav=210

EDIT: CSI work is exciting, and I'm typing this while eating my breakfast.

Managed to get a hold of Torchlight DEMO game from one of their mirror sites.
EXE is recognizable by OSX as an archive so double clicking it enables
to unarchive it. A folder comes up. Go in and unzip Pak.zip. A folder
called "media" comes up. Then go to these folders (see the
screen cap of my finder).

http://i.imgur.com/8Ravg.png

And the filename as stated before:
http://i.imgur.com/Nsm81.png

So there you go.

http://xeniglossa.gr/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-8.jpg
Signing off while wearing my RayBan,
Rocotilos Horatios.
:P

Disclaimer: I'm an indie individual developer and not affiliated with Runic/EGLs in anyway.
And have deleted both binaries from machines after the investigation is completed (that is today).

[Geta-Ve]

Honestly, legalities would just be a waste of resources at this point, for Runic anyways. Even if they won. They approached the situation properly and level headed.

While Apple may have let the game through (is it out yet?), the company is still responsible enough, and intelligent enough to act accordingly, so long as Runic provides the necessary proof.

Once it is off of the App Store, that essentially stops sales to EGLS, at least from Apple's venue.

Note that Runic is not actually losing money from this debacle, that is not the crux here, the issue is that EGLS is making money off of another company's hard work, which is, obviously, wrong.

An appropriate analogy would be if/when a coworker gets a raised based off of your hard work.

As a modeller / texture artist / UV mapper, I can tell you that it is incredibly easy to manipulate models after all of the hard work has been completed. Polygon reduction is a very straightforward affair, as is texture manipulation. Anyone unfamiliar with either process should simply sit out of the discussion (I would say 'debate' but, lets be honest, it really isn't anything close to that).


- I'd also like to offer this aside; As artists, as creative folk would we rather be recognized for our originality or our skills of imitation? Personally I'd rather be remembered as 'the guy who created XYZ' instead of 'the guy who made that Torchlight Clone'.

[Geta-Ve]

signing off while wearing my rayban,
rocotilos horatios.
:p


yeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

[nfong]

Lol, one of the comments from the PCGamer article covering the story:

In addition to Travis Baldree being the lead designer of Fate, Max and Erich Schaefer (who also helped to found Runic) were the creators of Diablo and the lead designers on Diablo I and II. Which makes their accusations that Runic copied Blizzard and Diablo all the more hilarious.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/17/torchlight-game-assets-plagiarized-by-chinese-developer-runic-responds/

[Toghopper]

damn,beat me to it

[LilNomad94]

Honestly, I say, who gives a damn??? They should just come to some agreement that EGLS share the profit of their game! If Torchlight is so successful, and this game is basically a shot-for-shot port of the game (Since they essentially stole all of the code), then it should make a significant amount of money which could be shared. Money is a powerful thing!! After all, money talks.

[Delusionaltool]

Kotaku now has an article more to spawn soon i am sure.

http://kotaku.com/5926795/creators-of-torchlight-ripoff-say-its-not-a-torchlight-ripoff

[Toghopper]

Honestly, I say, who gives a damn??? They should just come to some agreement that EGLS share the profit of their game! If Torchlight is so successful, and this game is basically a shot-for-shot port of the game (Since they essentially stole all of the code), then it should make a significant amount of money which could be shared. Money is a powerful thing!! After all, money talks.


"I don't think we're interested in that. Who wants to go into business with someone who is dishonest out of the gate? How would you trust them to even pay you the appropriate royalty amount?

Moreover, granting our blessing to use our assets to a certain extent means we also bless the game that uses them. I don't know anything about it, and I don't want to be in the outsourcing or licensing business at all. We want to make games that we are responsible for, and that if people dislike, it's our fault - not someone else we have no influence over."

Travis posted this in the other thread
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=144322&page=7

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

Honestly, I say, who gives a damn??? They should just come to some agreement that EGLS share the profit of their game! If Torchlight is so successful, and this game is basically a shot-for-shot port of the game (Since they essentially stole all of the code), then it should make a significant amount of money which could be shared. Money is a powerful thing!! After all, money talks.
The game is free. And many people dont buy iAP's for free to play games. Your arguement is invalid and I laugh at your stupidity.

[tbaldree]

Honestly, I say, who gives a damn??? They should just come to some agreement that EGLS share the profit of their game! If Torchlight is so successful, and this game is basically a shot-for-shot port of the game (Since they essentially stole all of the code), then it should make a significant amount of money which could be shared. Money is a powerful thing!! After all, money talks.

It isn't a port. It's a different game. It just uses the assets we built. Would you really jump at the chance to work with someone who stole your work and then tried to pretend they didn't?

I don't care much about money, except insofar as it lets us continue making the games we want to make. I DO care about working with people I like.

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

It isn't a port. It's a different game. It just uses the assets we built. Would you really jump at the chance to work with someone who stole your work and then tried to pretend they didn't?

I don't care much about money, except insofar as it lets us continue making the games we want to make. I DO care about working with people I like.
I actually feel so stupid for not knowing about torchlight before this whole issue. Travis, you and your team are admirable in the way you are handling this situation and I respect that. Btw gunna get torchlit as soon as I get my next paycheck. Also any plans for a legitimate torchlight iOS port?

[tbaldree]

I actually feel so stupid for not knowing about torchlight before this whole issue. Travis, you and your team are admirable in the way you are handling this situation and I respect that. Btw gunna get torchlit as soon as I get my next paycheck. Also any plans for a legitimate torchlight iOS port?

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.

[Toghopper]

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.

This.
:mad:;):D

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.
Fair enough :) but seriously you should consider it :$

[Delusionaltool]

dude tbaldtree you would make a killing if torchlight 1 or 2 came to the ios i know i would buy it...torchlight cured the diablo 2 itch , then diablo 3 came out but i really cant wait for torchlight 2 its supposed to have multiplayer too....

[Toghopper]

i love real games on my ipad, being able to set on the couch with my chick and "watch" Snow Falling on Seeders while i play Bards tale or Avernum is the bees's knees.

I would gladly pay top dollar for Torchlight on ol'paddy.

(throws cash wrapped rock at Travis)

[Wizard_Mike]

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.

Yeah, most likely.

He's not being funny or exaggerating, folks. Those of us wanting TL2 are... anxious, to say the least. (especially since Diablo 3 failed to satisfy the dungeon crawling itch we've been scratching at all these years.)

Perhaps after TL2 is released, we can see something from the Torchlight world on the iOS market? Even if it's just a game of you and your pet fishing up rare catches in different locations?

I'd buy it, at least...

[lockeslylcrit]

dude tbaldtree you would make a killing if torchlight 1 or 2 came to the ios i know i would buy it...torchlight cured the diablo 2 itch , then diablo 3 came out but i really cant wait for torchlight 2 its supposed to have multiplayer too....

For me, Titan Quest was the game that scratched the Diablo II itch. Torchlight was the one that scratched the modding itch.

[Toghopper]

For me, Titan Quest was the game that scratched the Diablo II itch. Torchlight was the one that scratched the modding itch.

yes dude TQ is the Shit!...can i cuss here?
any way im leveling a Haruspex right now.. literally tabbing out to surf these forums!

Just started Sacred as well, not as good as TQ but its aiiight

[Hawkn]

Honestly, I say, who gives a damn??? They should just come to some agreement that EGLS share the profit of their game! If Torchlight is so successful, and this game is basically a shot-for-shot port of the game (Since they essentially stole all of the code), then it should make a significant amount of money which could be shared. Money is a powerful thing!! After all, money talks.

They stole art and sound assets, not code.

[talimorrigan]

duplicate

[Toghopper]

i realize this isnt the time for this,but i also cant miss a good opportunity when i see one and it would be a shame to not get the opinion of someone in the industry when i can.

Travis, what is you opinion here?
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/06/ea-senior-vp-comments-on-steam-sales-%E2%80%9Ci-just-think-it-cheapens-your-intellectual-property-%E2%80%9D/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/16/steam-deals-dont-cannibalise-sales-says-valves-director-of-business-management/

again.not trying to derail here, "Almost heroes" or whatever can cram it with wallnuts

[Connector]

So anyway, I downloaded the ipa from google search (for investigating purpose only).

As normal, I changed the ipa of Armed Heroes Online extension to zip extension. Then extracted it using The Unarchiver. A Folder is created. Going in, there is another folder called Payload, so I went in (using Finder), then, there are a bunch of sound_file#.mod files. Changing those to zip and extracted give me a big file of no extension. Ok fine. So I went and open sound_pkg.prop in TextEdit.

Here it is:

All the file names listed in this prop file is familiar. And lets scroll to the
prominent accusation by Runic... *drumroll*
.

Thanks for sharing this with us, it was very interesting, we need to start a poll on this thread to vote for guilty or not guilty. Bet you it would run about 98 percent guilty, even though on the threads it doesn't appear that way...

Some say that Touch Arcaders are for the bad guys, but I don't think it is true...

[talimorrigan]

Dude, you are making an absolute statement that is both clearly wrong and racist. Keep it up and you will be banned (by me).

I feel sad for you not know what racism is. This case is not racism, simply because it is a statement of fact. It would be racism if I claimed that every chinese is incapable of something, which I did not, and if I ever did that, I would be wrong. The best thing you can accuse me of is xenophobia, and that is stretching the definition. What you should see is that it was a harmless joke about the bootlegged products commonly made in China referencing to actual hightech and other things they obviously do for other countries... And referencing the fact that most of the "original" item they create is, Instead of creating a competing item, a cheap copy of one. they do obviously create some original products of topnotch quality like some...ermmm cards for nintendo DS(which I will not name them)

Now, can we return to the original subject?
Lastly, it is NOT a dude, but a girl.

Thank you.

PS: You can ban me, but rest assured, you will be wrong.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not denying their ability or capability, I'm just pointing out that they have the capability of creating an equal or superior product to any western product(Europe, N.A. Japan...etc) but instead, they choose to create knock offs.

[tbaldree]

i realize this isnt the time for this,but i also cant miss a good opportunity when i see one and it would be a shame to not get the opinion of someone in the industry when i can.

Travis, what is you opinion here?
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/06/ea...rty-%E2%80%9D/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/16/st...ss-management/


Steam sales are amazing and do not harm your brand as far as I can tell. If Valve offers to let us in on a sale, by god we do it.

[talimorrigan]

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.

.. Yep, See that torch over there... and that pitchfork? Currently being used against the EGLS... :) I dont get to take them out for a spin very often, but when I do... I do it like a Boss :P

No need to say more :D

Regards
From a very dear, and lovably raging fan :) :o:D

[Azuvidexus]

I actually feel so stupid for not knowing about torchlight before this whole issue. Travis, you and your team are admirable in the way you are handling this situation and I respect that. Btw gunna get torchlit as soon as I get my next paycheck. Also any plans for a legitimate torchlight iOS port?

Not at present. If we devoted any resources to that and took them away from completing TL2 I imagine a lynching wouldn't be far behind.

dude tbaldtree you would make a killing if torchlight 1 or 2 came to the ios i know i would buy it...torchlight cured the diablo 2 itch , then diablo 3 came out but i really cant wait for torchlight 2 its supposed to have multiplayer too....


And after the PC game is released, at some point the Mac version! ^_^ Wooot <3

By the way, I got to know about this from Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/07/17/torchlight-art-found-in-ios-mmo-mmo-dev-denies-theft-against-st/).

[Hawkn]

i realize this isnt the time for this,but i also cant miss a good opportunity when i see one and it would be a shame to not get the opinion of someone in the industry when i can.

Travis, what is you opinion here?
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/06/ea-senior-vp-comments-on-steam-sales-%E2%80%9Ci-just-think-it-cheapens-your-intellectual-property-%E2%80%9D/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/16/steam-deals-dont-cannibalise-sales-says-valves-director-of-business-management/

again.not trying to derail here, "Almost heroes" or whatever can cram it with wallnuts

Two weeks after the EA dude said that, Origin had a big sale.

[dmyers]

Don't have much to add to the discussion I suppose, it seems fairly cut and dry (and has since tbaldree's first comment in the other thread). The rebuttal from the AoH dev was nothing but misdirection, ignoring the accusations and posting unrelated materials to support their claim. It's amazing to me that the conversation has continued, and there are still people supporting the AoH dev. Perhaps those few supporters truly are just trolling.

[ghOti]

16 pages spawned by a single post that reads like an expert's guide to internet argument. This has been the absolutely perfect troll.

I am in awe. Hats off, Serena zhang.

[Ironbuddha]

This inspired me to buy TL 1 and 2 on Steam.

[takosmegas]

you guys are a bunch of unintelligent 💩💩💩💩s. first of all you did no research at all because if you did you would know that Runic made Fate in the first place and the models you have shown in comparison to WoW models were stolen from TL and not WoW while you didnt show many of the other models that were stolen.

stop making awful shit like this and accept your defeat like men and dont try to hide behind your fingers. you wouldnt want runic to sue you now would you?

[florendas]

Steam sales are amazing and do not harm your brand as far as I can tell. If Valve offers to let us in on a sale, by god we do it.

Anyone at Valve listening?

[Toghopper]

Steam sales are amazing and do not harm your brand as far as I can tell. If Valve offers to let us in on a sale, by god we do it.

i knew that was the answer you would give,because it was the sensible one.

[himmatsj]

Steam sales are amazing and do not harm your brand as far as I can tell. If Valve offers to let us in on a sale, by god we do it.

Torchlight is 40% off...howz that? http://store.steampowered.com/app/41500/

[Abisco]

Torchlight is 40% off...howz that? http://store.steampowered.com/app/41500/

Actually its going to -75 because it won the community vote!

[Rocotilos]

Thanks for sharing this with us, it was very interesting, we need to start a poll on this thread to vote for guilty or not guilty. Bet you it would run about 98 percent guilty, even though on the threads it doesn't appear that way...

Some say that Touch Arcaders are for the bad guys, but I don't think it is true...

Hey, no problem. I was initially curious to know who is right and who is wrong and that's why I decided to verify it for myself and share the findings result with the rest of you.

And if ANY of you don't believe my findings, then they also can verify it for themselves following the method i stated in the post in previous page.

Good luck, Travis. I think you really should be planning for iOS port now. (maybe you are already) All these publicity would be a waste if iOS port is not launched soon. I am particularly interested to get a copy for my iPad, eventhough if it's 10bucks. ;)

[Skillmaster19]

Thanks for sharing this with us, it was very interesting, we need to start a poll on this thread to vote for guilty or not guilty. Bet you it would run about 98 percent guilty, even though on the threads it doesn't appear that way...

Some say that Touch Arcaders are for the bad guys, but I don't think it is true...
Well considering a lot of people's opinions got set by the main page article, large amounts of people joined to discuss the issue, I must say the poll would be biased.

[kyoukusanagi]

torchlight is now $3.74 in steam. buy that instead of this stealing game.
the main post is just made to "downplay" the differences. and is a blatant lie for damage control. they stole assets from torchlight and runic has confirmed that. twice

whoever still actually defend AH is just ignorant. or... just wow

[kyoukusanagi]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/17/torchlight-game-assets-plagiarized-by-chinese-developer-runic-responds/

there's the full news, that should be in front page instead

[Skillmaster19]

torchlight is now $3.74 in steam. buy that instead of this stealing game.
the main post is just made to "downplay" the differences. and is a blatant lie for damage control. they stole assets from torchlight and runic has confirmed that. twice

whoever still actually defend AH is just ignorant. or... just wow
Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

[geoelectric]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

O_o I've never ever had that happen. Game works great for me on Mac and on Xbox 360.

Sure you're not just trolling at this point?

[Skillmaster19]

O_o I've never ever had that happen. Game works great for me on Mac and on Xbox 360.

Sure you're not just trolling at this point?
Maybe its just poorly programmed for pc, idk as I haven't played it on Xbox or Mac. but I played it on windows and it was full of bugs.

[bluebooger]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

not quite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMfqMJfqsQ

[jipiyilu]

So your saying you did use the original models since its so easy modded? How can you explain the sound files being exactly the same as torchlight same names which includes the bad spelling? you guys are digging your self a grave here, Runic is massive compared to you guys, they been in the game a while, you don't have a case here. Tgls could get shut down with all the money they could get you for, your best play here is stop making excuses change up the assets make them your own , fix the game so Runic does not destroy your company and save your self some money alot of money which could potentially close you down.

You say your self your not allowed to use for monetary gain? but you are if the game costs money or if its free with iaps what money is made is being made with Torchlight models and sound? you say the sound is done in house , how can that be? you took torchlight and extracted the sounds in house that's what i see here, theft and plagiarism....

Friendly fire? ROFL

[Ganesha]

Also...can Runic be accused of "stealing" from Diablo 2...when the heads of Runic were the heads of Blizzard North, and the designers of Diablo 2? what you create when you work for a company belongs to the company not yourself. if you reuse the stuff when you start your own business, that is definitely stealing.

[justln]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

Oh wow, an Internet troll. Can I pet it?

Hundreds of thousands of players have completed the game without any issues. It's a great game with rave reviews.
Seriously, your lack of common sense is terrifying.

For those who are interested in Torchlight 1, Torchlight 2 comes with a free copy of it. It's a better deal IMO.

[Trololol]

I installed Armed Heroes and it broke my iPad, it now doesn't boot. Also, some money has gone missing from my account. And my dog died. This is all true fact and unproveable to the contrary.

Ban me please - I just registered to tell Skillmaster19 he's an amusing little boy who probably needs to wait until he's all grown up if he expects anybody to take his nonsense seriously. You sound a bit like a spoiled 16 year old child, and quite a lot of the internet is laughing at you (or going 'awwww' of course). The parts of it that aren't spoiled teenagers, at any rate.

Whatever silly retort you're about to bash out on your long-suffering keyboard is irrelevant; I know you care about what people think about you, because you're acting the spoiled child and whatever you type you're feeling angry and impotent and stamping your little feet in frustration. It's so sweet!

You 'lose', just by being you (and also by thinking there's ever a 'win')! Come back in a few years, kid, and read the stupid you just posted. You'll feel embarassed, no doubt, but it's okay. We're all young once. It's not a crime.

what you create when you work for a company belongs to the company not yourself. if you reuse the stuff when you start your own business, that is definitely stealing. Absolutely - copying and pasting other peoples' stuff is wrong. However, only one party here has done that. If you think applying skills and experiences is wrong, you should probably petition to have all ex-employees lobotomised the moment they walk out of the office. Good luck with that! You're not acting particularly bright either, are you?

You're all so precious! Group hug?

Anyway, bye!

[Geta-Ve]

Maybe its just poorly programmed for pc, idk as I haven't played it on Xbox or Mac. but I played it on windows and it was full of bugs.

For you maybe. For the other 95% of players it worked like a charm, myself included.

*shrug*

Just because you now realize that EGLS was clearly in the wrong doesn't mean you should start attacking Torchlight.

Jesus, have some humility.

[talimorrigan]

Maybe its just poorly programmed for pc, idk as I haven't played it on Xbox or Mac. but I played it on windows and it was full of bugs.

Never had any single issue on my PC.

In fact, it is one of the MOST stable games I've ever tried, played for hours and so far, not a single crash. NOT ONE! Zilch, Zero, none, nada! And it runs practically anywhere :)

Try reinstalling or looking over the web for the specific issue, because this sounds more like it is your pc.

Even then, a buggy game doesnt mean its a bad one, does anyone remember "boiling Point"? Buggy like hell, but fun :)

[talimorrigan]

Does anyone remember this? Let's just say, this is not new :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_of_the_Lost

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/06/12/limbo-of-the-lost-an-astonishing-tale/

http://lotl.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo_of_the_Lost_Wiki

[Nullroar]

Does this remind anyone else of politics?

Damning accusation made with supporting evidence...person on the defense denies (without explaining the denial), changes subject and goes on attack with quasi-tangental comparison.

The sound file is the proverbial hand-caught-in-the-cookie-jar. [.jar, to you closeted Java devs out there on the iOS forums].

It is one thing to to point out that the spiders from both games feature the amount of legs (scandal!). Spiders tend to do that.

It is another another thing entirely to point out that, say, the sound files feature the same...well, sound files. Files between games generally DON'T tend to do that, and for good reason.

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

what you create when you work for a company belongs to the company not yourself. if you reuse the stuff when you start your own business, that is definitely stealing.
Yes but as runic stated they didn't reuse any sound or graphical assets from diablo when making torchlight

[lockeslylcrit]

For those who are interested in Torchlight 1, Torchlight 2 comes with a free copy of it. It's a better deal IMO.

Well, it really depends on the person buying it. If they have had no experience playing Diablo-like games before, Torchlight (right now) at $3.74 is a good deal to get one's feet wet. If they don't like the genre, then they only lose out on less than four bucks, a bit better than 20 dollars.
But honestly, we all want Runic to succeed and we want to support them, so laying down the 20 dollars for the pre-order helps pay Runic's bills.

[Badtz]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

Stop it. I feel embarrassed for you.

[Aegeri]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

I have been content to just read this site and forums for several months now, but this gigantic load of horse shit you just wrote has prompted me to register. I have barely heard of any problems with torchlight before and certainly not of that magnitude on PC, Mac or 360. I own the game on PC and bought a copy for my mother (a big fan of diablo like games) also on PC without any issue on multiple computers.

Quite frankly I suspect you pirated the game (where I do know it has some issues at times) or are blatantly lying, which would fit with the other posts you have been making on this topic.

Also, as a general comment: Shame on anyone defending this blatant theft of someone else's work. I have always thought well of this site due to its prominence in actually trying to sort through and promote many iOS games. That there are many people here who are honestly saying crap like "Why are these guys complaining about theft, all I want to do is play the game!" is just entirely wrong. It is giving some outside of this forum a bad (and false, the vast majority of commentators here support runic) reputation for "supporting" theft, which is just going to negatively impact on the reputation of one of the only good iOS review/news sites.

But I am most disappointed in apple, who have really not done anything significant yet with these (very compelling) claims against the game going around. Their response to this will probably be one of the most important parts of this entire debate and I suspect if they do nothing, expect blatant asset theft to become a thing on the store.

[mr ed209]

Torchlight is trash... don't waste your money on it. Can't go 20 seconds without the game glitching up... idk why they would even sell it in its current state... its a scam. Your character literally falls through the floor within the first 20 seconds of playing, then the screen starts flipping out...

Your posts read like someone behind Armed Heroes is paying you to deliberately foul up these threads with so much utter nonsense it becomes impossible to have a decent discussion any more.

There's certainly almost no universal truth to your rants.

[Ganesha]

Yes but as runic stated they didn't reuse any sound or graphical assets from diablo when making torchlight
I didn't say that Travis stole from Diablo when making TL. It's just that many people here were saying that one cannot steal from the game created by himself. So I just wanted to clarify that legally one definitely CAN steal from "his" own works. clear?

[sapphire_neo]

Anyone having trouble understanding why Skillmaster19 is backing EGLS so fiercely (and inanely) should refer to this post.

God dammit I threw so much time into this game and its gonna be pulled because of copyright :(

[ttocs]

I was hoping this was all just a big misunderstanding, but the evidence is way too damning. Sure, the game has some unique stuff but that's just because you can't copy and paste a game as your own. What this guy tried to do was skirt around doing work by stealing art and sounds from another game and thought he would get away with it. It's really sad because I'm sure he spent a lot of time on the other stuff. Unfortunately, that's all wasted because he tried to take a shortcut.

And future thieves out there note - rename the damn files. That's just embarrassing.

[Rocotilos]

I was hoping this was all just a big misunderstanding, but the evidence is way too damning. Sure, the game has some unique stuff but that's just because you can't copy and paste a game as your own. What this guy tried to do was skirt around doing work by stealing art and sounds from another game and thought he would get away with it. It's really sad because I'm sure he spent a lot of time on the other stuff. Unfortunately, that's all wasted because he tried to take a shortcut.

And future thieves out there note - rename the damn files. That's just embarrassing.

I have no evidence other than investigated earlier in page 13, post #129, but i think they might've pulled some reverse engineer on the codes as well. these reverse engineering codes thingamabob do exist, but in the hush2 society that lives in dark sewerage and swamps. for the right amount of money.
u did not hear this from me though.

[Toz]

Nothing to "brighten" the day than to see trolls(Skillmaster19, Ganesha...) loosing control of their flaps.

My head hurts. Just stop it already. Embrace logical thinking. :D

[ttocs]

Nothing to "brighten" the day than to see trolls(Skillmaster19, Ganesha...) loosing control of their flaps.

My head hurts. Just stop it already. Embrace logical thinking. :D

Fanboys will be fanboys...

[sabin1981]

EGLS should not only have the game pulled from the app store but app sites, such as TA and PocketGamer, should also put an embargo on any future EGLS games. The fact that they lied about what they've done, then steadfastly refused to pull the game of their volition, just means they cannot be trusted and shouldn't be endorsed by gaming sites.

[ttocs]

EGLS should not only have the game pulled from the app store but app sites, such as TA and PocketGamer, should also put an embargo on any future EGLS games. The fact that they lied about what they've done, then steadfastly refused to pull the game of their volition, just means they cannot be trusted and shouldn't be endorsed by gaming sites.

Agreed. It really shouldn't get any publicity for this game.

[TC-man]

[...]We say Runic Games learned from Blizzard or stole from Blizzard? In fact, there is never such a game which has no similarity at all with games of its same type, including Torchlight.

Personal computers have overwhelming advantages in supporting model designing and editing than mobile devices. We guarantee that all of our models are made by us, and each mapping is drawn with our own hands. As mentioned at the very beginning, our team got inspirations from other brilliant games and movies, but had never straightly stole assets from Torchlight. What Mr. Travis Baldree said rudely depreciated the efforts our team had devoted into the game. We would love to submit any documents, files and other materials related to the game development to Apple to prove ourselves if Runic insists on that we “wholesale stole most of the assets from Torchlight!”

There is a famous quote from Confucius in China, which says “If I am walking with two other men, each of them will serve as my teacher. “ We respect companies including Runic Games as our teachers. We hope to learn from brilliant games’ designs, just like how Runic Games had learned from Diablo and Fate. Different from Runic Games oriented to PC/Mac, we are a company focusing on developing brand new games on today's new popular platform——mobile devices. What we hope to do is to bring the best game experience for mobile gamers and at the same time if we have the honor to contribute to the growth of mobile game industry.

EGLS Ltd.

Hi,

I totally disagree with what you said about the whole thing; you are just finding poorly worded excuses in order to condone what your company has done, and above that also abusing the meaning of Confucius' quote. If I have to give you an example that is easy to understand in China is comparing your company to someone who has secretly learned, and thus stealing a martial arts or Kung Fu style from some famous Kung Fu school; in ancient times this kind of thievery would have been punished with death penalty. Your company's action (like many others) has brought China a bad name, hence the term "China quality" and when people are talking about China, people immediately think about piracy and copyright infringements.

Do yourself a favor and pull the game from the Apple Appstore yourself, and make an original game instead, a game where you can say: "We are proud of this game because it's truly original and is made in China".

[Blackharon]

when people are talking about China, people immediately think about piracy and copyright infringements.


And ultra cheap plastic waterguns.

Or maybe that's just me...

[TC-man]

And ultra cheap plastic waterguns.

Or maybe that's just me...

Okay, that too, and cheap firework.

[talimorrigan]

Okay, that too, and cheap firework.

bootlegged products and polystation 3!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a6lxiB1b_I

Enjoy :) I laughed hard on this review :D:D:)

[Wizard_Mike]

Okay, that too, and cheap firework.

Oh man, China has the best fireworks in the world. When I was in Korea (U.S. Army) I got to see afew nights of an international fireworks competition. It was amazing overall, but China's display totally blew my mind. Their fireworks weren't just explosions of colors, but all sorts of different shapes and geometries. Cubes, pyramids, stars, even smiley faces. It was crazy, and makes me sad that here in the U.S., we're still just popping that same old stuff since who knows how long.

I was happy to see a star shape this past 4th, though. Hopefully next year we'll see some more advanced stuff!

[Platyrrhine]

And ultra cheap plastic waterguns.

Or maybe that's just me...

Interestingly enough, my ultra cheap plastic water guns came from Canada :D

[Xeem]

I'm lolling hard on this situation, I can't for the love of all that is torchy understand how they can defend stealing from Runic.

But on serious note; Why would they create anything original? Why break that trend in china, have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there? :P Time to clone the molds of Playstation 3 and call it Polystation :P

Dude, you are making an absolute statement that is both clearly wrong and racist. Keep it up and you will be banned (by me).

To state your belief that a nation manufactures shoddy products is not racism. For a moderator to threaten to ban someone over that statement is reprehensible, whether you agree with them or not.

[LilNomad94]

The game is free. And many people dont buy iAP's for free to play games. Your arguement is invalid and I laugh at your stupidity.

You're Canadian so you probably have about 5 teeth. That being said, I wouldn't use the word, "stupidity." I jumped into the thread rather quickly so I wouldn't have known that the game was even free. You're just another asshole behind a computer screen.

[Ausar]

i downloaded the game and yes runic have the rigths here even the level up sound is the same as torchlight the only thing missing is the voice saying "you have gaine fame" LOL

[Toghopper]

You're Canadian so you probably have about 5 teeth. That being said, I wouldn't use the word, "stupidity." I jumped into the thread rather quickly so I wouldn't have known that the game was even free. You're just another asshole behind a computer screen.

Never hurts to read the thread your about to post in before you post,chances are your questions/arguments have been answered already. Also can we just agree that everyone is stupid whether your Canadian,Chinese,American or where ever you crawled outta yur mothers womb.

[Skillmaster19]

Fanboys will be fanboys...
Oh please, there are plenty of Torchlight fanboys in here...

[Varking]

Oh please, there are plenty of Torchlight fanboys in here...

While we have you here, what is your defense about them ripping the sounds from Torchlight? Even keeping the same sound names and misspellings?

[Toghopper]

While we have you here, what is your defense about them ripping the sounds from Torchlight? Even keeping the same sound names and misspellings?

This.

Hey skill man,im not trying to attack you in anyway. Me and you, were cool:cool: a couple of fonzies, ya dig? But i would like to know your opinion on this man, those are some big coincidences and i just want to get you take on it.

And im with you man AH looks fun, i love ios gaming and we need more arpgs there, amirite?

[PRE]

At this point the torchlight guys should be pretty happy

1) the app will be removed just a question of when
2) they are getting so much free advertisement they prob had a decent increase in sales

[Nobunaga]

You're Canadian so you probably have about 5 teeth. That being said, I wouldn't use the word, "stupidity." I jumped into the thread rather quickly so I wouldn't have known that the game was even free. You're just another asshole behind a computer screen.

First off, you're an idiot. Anyone that wants to make generalizations about a whole country is.

I don't see how there's even a discussion here. It seems pretty obvious that runic is 100% in the right.

I tried and deleted this game before this whole issue of theft of Intellectual property started. It's really not great in any way. Americans won't be missing a thing by not trying this game.

This whole situation is a waste of runic's time, which is pretty crappy. Hope it doesn't detract from the efforts on TL2.

The real losers here are going to be the people that have invested in this game though. If anyone's reading this I would suggest not getting the game on moral / ethical issues. If you do, don't spend any money in it. It's likely to get pulled from the AppStore and you'll lose your investment.

[Delusionaltool]

Patrick is on the ball, his article is up on giantbomb now...

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/the-case-against-armed-heroes-online/4278/

and skillmaster omfg just stop, you are being ridiculous, you say your 16 and all this, I still think you work for Egls and are just trolling the forums for them LOL, you even said how torchlight is the buggiest game and just made up some straight BS about it RIDICULOUS!!!!, your the only one who is sticking up for Egls, as i said a few pages i dont care about the graphics we all know what happened there (ASSets), but if you want to protect a game you know is going to be pulled soon your words mean nothing, we all know you have racked like 20 hours in the game, get over it.... Now explain your self about how you can protect them when there using the same sound files including the miss-spelled sound file i mean there is more then one person asking the same thing. I cant wait to see what you come up with prob some more BS about Torchlight which only happens to you LOL.

bottom line is EGLS did what they did and they cant even admit their wrongs all they gotta do is pull the game to avoid the onslaught of Runic lawyers devouring the company, Runic and TBaldtree have all been pretty level headed over all this even giving Egls a chance to fix it, just change the game to add their own models and assets be done with all this, now we got news articles from game media all over the web Egls dug this grave for them selves and they are just sinking lower and lower.

[talimorrigan]

To state your belief that a nation manufactures shoddy products is not racism. For a moderator to threaten to ban someone over that statement is reprehensible, whether you agree with them or not.


Thanks :)
xxxx

[squarezero]

To state your belief that a nation manufactures shoddy products is not racism. For a moderator to threaten to ban someone over that statement is reprehensible, whether you agree with them or not.
You or talimorrigan may disagree with me -- that's your prerogative. But national insults are not allowed on TA (and that's what the phrase "have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there" is"), a rule that I fully intend to enforce. Please keep that in mind if you intend to make further contributions to this topic.

That goes for other folks, too BTW.

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

You're Canadian so you probably have about 5 teeth. That being said, I wouldn't use the word, "stupidity." I jumped into the thread rather quickly so I wouldn't have known that the game was even free. You're just another asshole behind a computer screen.
Yes but Don't you think that was rather "stupid"? And yea I'm Canadian but that doesn't have anything to do me calling you stupid or not. Btw I don't calll just anyone stupid unless they do idiotic things such as yourself my kind sir. I mean joining a game thread to stop removal of a game from the AppStore by Making an agreement on sharing royalties when the game is free. Now you tell me how smart that was? I apologize if I hurt your feelings though. I am a nice person if you get to know me but I'm sure everyone will agree what you did was infact stupid. And please stop crying bout this game being removed from the AppStore I mean seriously guys have your parents ever taught you any moral values? Anyways good Luck runic!

[xD4RKSH4DOWZx]

Oh please, there are plenty of Torchlight fanboys in here...
Ive never played any of runic's games as I dnt even have a proper working pc and I don't have any consoles either. I do almost everything on my iPad, and I can definitely say what was done was extremely irresponsible and wrong of EGLS. Just saying many people haven't even heard bout torchlight until this whole issue came up s please do yourself a favour and stop posting here because you have forever ruined the sanctity of TA with your poor thought out post and the very fact that your are still defending thieves means you are just that selfish. I'm actually still surprised why Eli hasnt IP banned you yet, so consider yourself lucky and please just stop posting here unless you have solid proof that what EGLS did wasn't wrong. Oh and good luck finding that proof ;)

[MeanTuna]

Ive never played any of runic's games as I dnt even have a proper working pc and I don't have any consoles either. I do almost everything on my iPad, and I can definitely say what was done was extremely irresponsible and wrong of EGLS. Just saying many people haven't even heard bout torchlight until this whole issue came up s please do yourself a favour and stop posting here because you have forever ruined the sanctity of TA with your poor thought out post and the very fact that your are still defending thieves means you are just that selfish. I'm actually still surprised why Eli hasnt IP banned you yet, so consider yourself lucky and please just stop posting here unless you have solid proof that what EGLS did wasn't wrong. Oh and good luck finding that proof ;)

I for sure never heard of TL or Runic before, but thanks to all this crazyness im really curious about this games and gonna get'em as soon as I can!

[ednan]

I for sure never heard of TL or Runic before, but thanks to all this crazyness im really curious about this games and gonna get'em as soon as I can!

TL was 3.74 usd yesterday on steam. I think it's still with some discount.

[backtothis]

I for sure never heard of TL or Runic before, but thanks to all this crazyness im really curious about this games and gonna get'em as soon as I can!

The game's a necessity for fans of action-RPGs/dungeon crawlers. Currently on sale on Steam. Need to replay it before the sequel is out!

[metalslime]

Torchlight is an awesome game! I'd highly recommend it to anyone that hasn't played it yet. Only $8.99 on Steam too. It'll prep you up for Torchlight II coming soon.

[MeanTuna]

The game's a necessity for fans of action-RPGs/dungeon crawlers. Currently on sale on Steam. Need to replay it before the sequel is out!

Damn now I want it even more, need to get home now! Stupid job and stupid real life getting in the way of my enjoyment!

Also interested in FATE. Good and well deserved publicity for Runic Games came out of all this cr ap.

[talimorrigan]

You or talimorrigan may disagree with me -- that's your prerogative. But national insults are not allowed on TA (and that's what the phrase "have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there" is"), a rule that I fully intend to enforce. Please keep that in mind if you intend to make further contributions to this topic.

That goes for other folks, too BTW.


Oh, ok. My apologies, you are right, oxford dictionary, thesaurus, other people and me are wrong. I'll send an e-mail to the company behind oxford dictionary to delete their outrageously erroneous definition of racism, and include yours instead.


http://i.imgur.com/86qhn.jpg

[geoelectric]

Just when I thought the thread couldn't go further downhill...

[nfong]

Just when I thought the thread couldn't go further downhill...

Lol. Also doesn't seem the OP is going to be posting anytime soon...hasn't been online since last morning when she made this thread. xP

[BallsToTheWall]

But on serious note; Why would they create anything original? Why break that trend in china, have you seen anything original that actually works and of good quality coming from there? :P Time to clone the molds of Playstation 3 and call it Polystation :P

To state your belief that a nation manufactures shoddy products is not racism. For a moderator to threaten to ban someone over that statement is reprehensible, whether you agree with them or not.

No, what you are saying is tantamount to racism. Your narrow ignorant belief aside, you are disparaging a whole nation (of people) by stereotype. It is like if I say America is a nation of murderers who invades and kill innocent people in third world countries.

While what EGLS did is deplorable to say the least, you should refrain from generalizing a country over it.

[Royce]

Lol. Also doesn't seem the OP is going to be posting anytime soon...hasn't been online since last morning when she made this thread. xP

Bold prediction: She will return to tell us that some unnamed, impossible to hold accountable contracted artist/sound designer was responsible, that EGLS had no idea the assets were stolen, and that the individual(s) responsible have been relieved of their duties. Kinda like what happened with that game Thor Jewels or whatever :p

[Echoseven]

Bold prediction: She will return to tell us that some unnamed, impossible to hold accountable contracted artist/sound designer was responsible, that EGLS had no idea the assets were stolen, and that the individual(s) responsible have been relieved of their duties. Kinda like what happened with that game Thor Jewels or whatever :p

Shhhhh, don't give them ideas!

[tristanmathers]

A quote from Confucius

Gimme a freakin' break

[Noah]

Maybe they did it on purpose (created their own assets, but then named them exactly the same as torchlight assets) just to drum up controversy about their game.

Cause I know I'm sure as heck going to buy it the moment it's available to purchase!!!

[PrayForDeath]

Cause I know I'm sure as heck going to buy it the moment it's available to purchase!!!

It's free

[Toghopper]

No, what you are saying is tantamount to racism. Your narrow ignorant belief aside, you are disparaging a whole nation (of people) by stereotype. It is like if I say America is a nation of murderers who invades and kill innocent people in third world countries.

While what EGLS did is deplorable to say the least, you should refrain from generalizing a country over it.

Man this exact argument was just happening the other day on some site i go to, i cant remember which one,but one guy ended the debate with this:

"How can hate of a country, comprised of so many different ethnic groups, be considered racist?"

Granted everyone was talking about mexico, and china is probably 98% full of Chinese people, but you know,food for thought!

[Ganesha]

Maybe they did it on purpose (created their own assets, but then named them exactly the same as torchlight assets) just to drum up controversy about their game.

Cause I know I'm sure as heck going to buy it the moment it's available to purchase!!!

Creating drama is always the best way to draw public attention. Both Runic and ELGS stand to benifit from this series. Not sure if ELGS did it on purpose, but without this apparent debacle, as an absolute nobody stranger in the market, no way they could show up on the front page of the major mobile game sites. Now it seems that they already pulled out of AppStore, but let me make a bold prediction, they will come back very soon with the clean version, because they might already have it in their back pocket.:cool:

[Toghopper]

Now it seems that they already pulled out of AppStore

are you checking the Canadian app store? its only released there i think.

[Ganesha]

are you checking the Canadian app store? its only released there i think.
just checked, not there anymore

[Toghopper]

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/07/19/egls-to-modify-some-parts-of-its-ios-mmo-in-wake-of-torchlight/

looks like there fixing it?

lol, they're still denying the infringement though!

[Toghopper]

Good job gang,i feel like we were on the frontline of the battle lol!

[Delusionaltool]

Bahaha egls still cant admit what they have done, they were caught red handed by Runics own T.Baldtree i bet Skillmaster is going to be posting more bs lol. They want to send apple the files they used. Ok you do that send them torchli...i mean armored heroes here are the files we stole roflmao. That is gonna be alot of stuff to change i bet the same models are gonna be used just different colors the sound should be interesting im sure they got a group of people making mouth noises and flatulence! Ohhh i see Skillmaster does their sound work.

[Joltrabbit]

I wonder if they're just going to rename all the sound files and simply add a few mustaches to all the characters. bearded dwarf women!

[sabin1981]

As long as this carves out a way out of angry disputes, it will be definitely worth our efforts


Yeah.. getting out of the angry disputes is worth your time, but stealing someone else's hard work is acceptable behaviour, right? They haven't even apologised.. they're acting like they're only doing this under extreme duress and because they "care about the players" -- not caring about the developer they screwed over and then publicly branded a liar >_> Why do they need to modify anything if they've done nothing wrong, as they maintain? They're absolutely despicable.

Backup your original Armed Heroes IPAs, folks, before EGLS tries to sweep this under the rug and claim it never happened.

[xDyNaMiiCx]

At the end of the day I don't care who stole what. Armed heros is a hella good game. I'm enjoying it right now more then Order of chaos. So u guys keep bitching I'm keep playing.

[your personal robot]

At the end of the day I don't care who stole what. Armed heros is a hella good game. I'm enjoying it right now more then Order of chaos. So u guys keep bitching I'm keep playing.

Welcome to the forums, random real person with own opinion.

[xDyNaMiiCx]

Welcome to the forums, random real person with own opinion.

Well isn't everyone real here ? Mean we are gamers and like to play games right ?

[geoelectric]

Well isn't everyone real here ? Mean we are gamers and like to play games right ?

Yep. I wouldn't support this one, because I think validating the unauthorized use of assets has a detrimental effect on the scene as a whole. But I can also see where one could just say "screw it, it's fun."

Someone did compare this to a remix/mashup as an example of why this could be OK. I disagree, since the new work didn't actually comment on or transform what it borrowed; it was more like Vanilla Ice borrowing Queen's Under Pressure, a shortcut rather than a greater work.

If someone *were* to borrow assets from one or more games such that the new work commented on the originals and also transformed them into something truly novel, I think I'd actually be all for that. This just isn't that game.

[xDyNaMiiCx]

Yep. I wouldn't support this one, because I think validating the unauthorized use of assets has a detrimental effect on the scene as a whole. But I can also see where one could just say "screw it, it's fun."

Someone did compare this to a remix/mashup as an example of why this could be OK. I disagree, since the new work didn't actually comment on or transform what it borrowed; it was more like Vanilla Ice borrowing Queen's Under Pressure, a shortcut rather than a greater work.

If someone *were* to borrow assets from one or more games such that the new work commented on the originals and also transformed them into something truly novel, I think I'd actually be all for that. This just isn't that game.
As a game developer I can see one being upset and cheated. As a gamer like me, I can careless. Really at the end of the day this helps the sense to see mobile games are being upgraded day by day. In order for your app game to sell it has to be real good game. Like order of chaos, armed heros, mc3,nova 3.

[geoelectric]

As a game developer I can see one being upset and cheated. As a gamer like me, I can careless. Really at the end of the day this helps the sense to see mobile games are being upgraded day by day. In order for your app game to sell it has to be real good game. Like order of chaos, armed heros, mc3,nova 3.

The detrimental effect I see is that if we allow a culture of ripping off art, developers may be discouraged and release less games or worse-quality games. There's a certain value in rewarding those who not only put out a fun game, but do it without unfair tactics.

It is interesting to me that of your four examples, three are direct gameplay clones of WoW, COD, and Halo; and the last is an asset clone. Those are all fine and well and, AH aside, I have all of them too. Gameloft has very convenient $0.99 sales for stuff like that.

But the ones I put serious money into are games that actually manage to come up with both relatively novel gameplay -and- assets: Space Miner, Osmos, Machinarium, Nihilumbra, SpaceChem, Ascension, etc. Many are ports or adaptations, and many build on classic mechanics, but in each case the money paid rewards a developer who truly came up with all aspects of a great game, and who will hopefully come up with more.

[Toghopper]

Yeah,if all games ape cod or wow,then pretty soon all were playing cod and wow clones,iOS games deserve better than that right?

And while I'm sure the game was fun, it contained lifted material which i can't support. And I've played torchlight,when i pick up a different game I want to fight different enemies,not the ones from torchlight.

Theres a lot more to consider here than fun I guess.

And I agree that having better games on iOS would be great,but I think they should original as well as fun.
Also the "screw it it's fun" excuse is too close to the "screw it it's free" mentality of pirates for me. I really find entitlement like this painful.

Edit: lol,i just realized i pretty much just restated what the guy above me said...but in dumb-guy talk!

[xDyNaMiiCx]

Yeah,if all games ape cod or wow,then pretty soon all were playing cod and wow clones,iOS games deserve better than that right?

And while I'm sure the game was fun, it contained lifted material which i can't support. And I've played torchlight,when i pick up a different game I want to fight different enemies,not the ones from torchlight.

Theres a lot more to consider here than fun I guess.

And I agree that having better games on iOS would be great,but I think they should original as well as fun.
Also the "screw it it's fun" excuse is too close to the "screw it it's free" mentality of pirates for me. I really find entitlement like this painful.

Edit: lol,i just realized i pretty much just restated what the guy above me said...but in dumb-guy talk!
Fair enough, I'm just a fan of iOS and seeing how far phone games came I'm just happy over all. Again originally is overall needed for iOS. I just hope armed heroes is not shut down, that's all. Really fun game. I like it.

[Toghopper]

Fair enough, I'm just a fan of iOS and seeing how far phone games came I'm just happy over all. Again originally is overall needed for iOS. I just hope armed heroes is not shut down, that's all. Really fun game. I like it.

i think they said in the article that theyre going to take out the questionable assets and replace them with different/new ones or something along those lines.

Everyone wins with this solution,Runic,EGLS and i think most importantly us-the gamers.

Fresh mobs/items/sounds, etc. to what i hear is a pretty fun game is a win in my book.:D

[Skillmaster19]

/5char

edit: sorry wrong order idk how to change order of pics

[Varking]

/5char

edit: sorry wrong order idk how to change order of pics

Did you see the post yet about where the sounds were directly ripped from Torchlight? How do you defend that? They show the Torchlight sound files, and the sound files for this game and they are word for word copies, including Torchlights own misspellings.

[Delusionaltool]

ROFL, they still are not owning up to what they did i'm so baffled by this...i see Skillmaster is still defending them to the death i admire his passion hahahha.

EGLS is changing stuff which is great, but they still dont believe they should have too. really really ridiculous IMO...I will never buy a EGLS game ever.

[geoelectric]

ROFL, they still are not owning up to what they did i'm so baffled by this...i see Skillmaster is still defending them to the death i admire his passion hahahha.

EGLS is changing stuff which is great, but they still dont believe they should have too. really really ridiculous IMO...I will never buy a EGLS game ever.

Did he edit his post? It was just a couple of screencaps of EGLS announcing in-game that the game was taken down and would be coming back after they change the assets.

I don't see much defending going on now, and I found it interesting.

[Skillmaster19]

Did he edit his post? It was just a couple of screencaps of EGLS announcing in-game that the game was taken down and would be coming back after they change the assets.

I don't see much defending going on now, and I found it interesting.
Was defending them earlier, that last post was just me sharing screenshots in game stating they took it down themselves and plan to remake some of the assets and it should be back up real soon, I figured it was just information I could share that really can't be argued about, just noting they're changing it.