View Full Version : experiences with piracy?
martinpi
06-26-2009, 02:30 AM
hi fellow iphone devs,
out of no particular reason (but maybe inspired by the upcoming submission of our new game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S1crGWrDhw)) i felt like browsing through some code legitimacy-checking source today. i found two code examples, one checking for inconclusive modification dates (http://snippie.net/snip/f7530ff2) and one for the validity of the encryption (http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/2009/02/index.html) of the app.
we found Radio Flare (http://www.radiolaris.com/radioflare) on bittorent sites the day it was released but never bothered. but services like OpenFeint that charge developers per user make it an issue.
that made me wonder: did anyone of you have any experience with illegitimate copies? did anyone include code like the above into his app? what are your experiences?
Intruder_qcc
06-26-2009, 06:22 AM
@matinpi
I had some other example (http://thwart-ipa-cracks.blogspot.com/2008/11/detection.html)
Ohhh you raise an important issue that I never though of it before. Indeed what happen if for example you implement OpenFeint in your game or other similar package that charge you per users. If you got 90% of the user online using illegitimate copy this could become a serious issue. Maybe OpenFeint already their own way to find out if it s running on a crack version? You could contact them and ask (I know Jason Citron often come around here), but you should also on your side think about a way to disable online feature if you notice it is a crack version.
wikoogle
06-26-2009, 11:54 AM
Look, I can somewhat understand some unscrupulous people pirating $60 games from big name studios that they don't think are worth the cash/in a genre they don't care for.
But why the hell would anyone pirate $1-$5 games from small independent dev teams barely trying to make ends meet.
mrWalrus
06-26-2009, 03:01 PM
Look, I can somewhat understand some unscrupulous people pirating $60 games from big name studios that they don't think are worth the cash/in a genre they don't care for.
But why the hell would anyone pirate $1-$5 games from small independent dev teams barely trying to make ends meet.
LoL, are you kidding? Because people don't care.
For example, search using Google for the game my two man developer just released 'iSR iPhone'
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS309US309&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iSR+iPhone
More than half of the links on the front page alone are for pirate sites with links to the game. So rather than paying .99 cents for something the two of us worked on for four months they can have it for free..
Apple needs to introduce UDID verification at the base level since they won't let anyone do it in their apps. Until then there's not much that can be done from people helping themselves to whatever they want.
Adding to the problem are popular App sites giving people the keys to the castle by offering open forums where people can discuss 'jailbreaking' their phones.
The market is very much in its infancy, the problems we see today are the growing pains. Surely someday things will get better. :p
nooobynick
06-26-2009, 05:36 PM
LoL, are you kidding? Because people don't care.
For example, search using Google for the game my two man developer just released 'iSR iPhone'
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS309US309&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iSR+iPhone
More than half of the links on the front page alone are for pirate sites with links to the game. So rather than paying .99 cents for something the two of us worked on for four months they can have it for free..
Apple needs to introduce UDID verification at the base level since they won't let anyone do it in their apps. Until then there's not much that can be done from people helping themselves to whatever they want.
Adding to the problem are popular App sites giving people the keys to the castle by offering open forums where people can discuss 'jailbreaking' their phones.
The market is very much in its infancy, the problems we see today are the growing pains. Surely someday things will get better. :p
Although most forums have jailbreaking sections of their forums, most of them don't allow talking or discussing piracy and will warn users that do or ban them if they provide links or how tos
pharmx
06-26-2009, 06:00 PM
LoL, are you kidding? Because people don't care.
For example, search using Google for the game my two man developer just released 'iSR iPhone'
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS309US309&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iSR+iPhone
More than half of the links on the front page alone are for pirate sites with links to the game. So rather than paying .99 cents for something the two of us worked on for four months they can have it for free..
Apple needs to introduce UDID verification at the base level since they won't let anyone do it in their apps. Until then there's not much that can be done from people helping themselves to whatever they want.
Adding to the problem are popular App sites giving people the keys to the castle by offering open forums where people can discuss 'jailbreaking' their phones.
The market is very much in its infancy, the problems we see today are the growing pains. Surely someday things will get better. :p
lol...piracy and jailbreaking are two completely different things. I haven't jailbroken my iPhone, but I don't see anything wrong with people that want to do so. Piracy on the other hand is essentially stealing someone's work.
Grumps
06-26-2009, 06:12 PM
lol...piracy and jailbreaking are two completely different things. I haven't jailbroken my iPhone, but I don't see anything wrong with people that want to do so. Piracy on the other hand is essentially stealing someone's work.
Yep but jailbreaking facilitate piracy. A pirate is definitely jailbroken but not all jailbroken users are pirate.
mrWalrus
06-26-2009, 09:39 PM
Obviously the two are not synonymous.
Though the ratio of those who do, to those who have, would suggest it's a slippery slope.
iReview
06-26-2009, 09:46 PM
Surely someday things will get better. :p
Whatever stops the tears... :o
Ehh, I find it annoying that people pirate games. I don't even really want to jailbrake my iPhone...
CDubby94
06-26-2009, 10:38 PM
Not all pirates have jailbroken iDevices actually.
I know of sites that allow you to download .ipa's straight onto your desktop, then drag and drop into iTunes. No jailbreaking required. There's tons of ways to get apps for free, and it's pretty easy, which is why it's appealing to so many.
crimson.
06-26-2009, 10:57 PM
Not all pirates have jailbroken iDevices actually.
I know of sites that allow you to download .ipa's straight onto your desktop, then drag and drop into iTunes. No jailbreaking required. There's tons of ways to get apps for free, and it's pretty easy, which is why it's appealing to so many.
You have to have a patched mobile installation file to run those .ipa files though. The only way I know of to get a patched mobile installation is to jailbreak and install it through cydia. That or SSH in and swap it out manually. Either way you have to be jailbroken though.
> You have to have a patched mobile installation file to run those .ipa files
> though
This is good to know - I *think* this would limit the people who would actually be able to use the pirated version to a fairly small percentage of the iPhone target market ( pirates, techies, and some other developers who maybe had a reason to jailbreak for dev purposes ) - who probably wouldn't be a major source of income anyways for any app developer.
The thing I really like about the iPhone is that, if you have one ( and they ain't cheap ), and you've bought a few tunes / apps since getting one, you would probably prioritise spending a few dollars over potentially losing all of your previous purchases by trying to jailbreak or take the risk of modifying your iPhone in any non-official way. I know lots of people on other phones who have never spent a penny on new software, but with iPhone users, the average monthly spend seems to easily be in the 10s of dollars / pounds every month.
Mal
tiagobuhr
06-27-2009, 06:50 AM
You cant stop piracy. Design a new software to protect your app, in couple of weeks there is a crack for it already. Its a battle between crackers/developers, and this is what makes it so interesting. But there will NEVER be a 100% safe protection software.
PixelthisMike
06-27-2009, 04:52 PM
You cant stop piracy. Design a new software to protect your app, in couple of weeks there is a crack for it already. Its a battle between crackers/developers, and this is what makes it so interesting. But there will NEVER be a 100% safe protection software.
Exactly right, they will always find a way.
Interestingly pinchmedia tracking now lists how many jailbroken phones your app is running on and how many users are using a cracked version! No idea how they do it or how accurate it is.
LostToken
06-27-2009, 07:25 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Pinch Media?
GaiaIllusion
06-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Only the smart pirates are able to bypass protection. The others (the majority) rely on them to fix apps for them, and it's usually masses of 15 year old kids who don't have the money to buy apps unless they use their parent's credit cards.
Adding any sort of protection will deter some pirates, because a lot of people don't know what to do with an app that can detect piracy. The rest look towards a fix, while every update of the app makes a new problem for them.
Plus, serverside protection is useful for online games/apps.
Adding protection does help in the long run, especially on the less popular apps. The bigger apps will always be cracked in the end, unfortunately.
allenfjordan
06-28-2009, 01:58 AM
People who pirate apps are probably not valid customers in the first place. Even if the pirated version isn't available, I doubt they'll buy an actual copy. Better to focus on your main customers rather than worrying about the rest.
PixelthisMike
06-28-2009, 02:15 AM
Does anyone have any experience with Pinch Media?
Sure, we've been using it for quite a while now and have found it to be VERY useful and interesting! Check out our blog (http://www.pixelthismobile.com/blog/4/05/2009/10-lessons-iphone-game-design-courtesy-sheepish-lite) for some lessons learned from using pinchmedia tracking.
pixelthisPeter
06-28-2009, 03:57 AM
People who pirate apps are probably not valid customers in the first place. Even if the pirated version isn't available, I doubt they'll buy an actual copy. Better to focus on your main customers rather than worrying about the rest.
I couldn't agree more.
Unless they are distributing it (illegally) in a very obvious place that your customers will easily find it and be influenced to pirate instead of purchase. In which case cease-and-desist. That's about all you can do, I'm afraid!
markx2
06-28-2009, 04:59 AM
Plus, serverside protection is useful for online games/apps.
To get back to an earlier point, should online places like Openfeint and similar use these, give you (as a dev) a guarantee they will use your chosen serverside authentication?
It will cost you money if they do not.
I was thinking that you could have the high score server as an in app purchase.
Then you can validate each valid UDID with apple, and not return high scores unless their UDID is approved.
Seems like it might be a lot of work for little return though.
I dont think you know the UUIDs of your purchasers, as far as I know. Either way it's not worth it to combat piracy on the iPhone, that's really a job for Apple. If it becomes a big enough problem Apple will need to address it (using custom hardware, online validation, better encryption schemes, etc..). This is simialr to the console manafactuers and piracy on their systems.
-ddn
You don't know the UDID of people who buy your apps, but in app purchases have an api to check a UDID with Apple to see if they have purchased the in app content.
martinpi
06-29-2009, 04:20 AM
People who pirate apps are probably not valid customers in the first place. Even if the pirated version isn't available, I doubt they'll buy an actual copy.
when it comes to music market data shows that those who own the most amount of illegal music are also the best customers. i'm quite sure the same is true for films. and i'm absolutely positive that PC gaming wouldn't have taken off without people swapping floppy discs in the first place.
i think the best solution is to provide superior service to legitimate customers - like steam does it - and require _some_ authentication in order to use these services (because they incur running costs). that way pirates just play demo versions of your game. it would turn piracy into marketing.
btw: there's a problem with the stealing-piracy analogy: if you steal something the former owner doesn't own it anymore. with software it's just a copy.
wildex999
06-30-2009, 09:31 PM
How about putting in ads if the app/game find out it's a pirate copy? Maybe hide the detection until a day or two after release to let the pirate copy spread a bit.
Most pirates just want to test the game, and they shouldn't complain if they get a small ad at the main screen if they are sincere about just testing before buying.
For those who just don't want/can't buy the app for some reason, they will eventually pay of at least a bit of the app by getting an add each day they turn on the app/game.
Imagine, 1000 people donwload and try the game, but doesn't like it, and delete it after one try. There you might get a tiny bit of money.
Now, maybe 10 of these like the game, and go buy it... good for you.
and then we got the rest, those who download it, like it and just keep playing it on and off. Those last people, while not paying back the full app price, will eventually generate a bit of money from the ads, thus making the hit from piracy a bit softer.
And if they take out the ad... well, then we will know what the pirates realy are... pirates.
Well, just my view ;)
CDubby94
06-30-2009, 09:37 PM
Yeah but what company would want to be affiliated with cracked apps by putting their ad in one?
coolman
07-01-2009, 01:22 AM
How about putting in ads if the app/game find out it's a pirate copy?
I'm doing exactly this. :)
i also detected one of my games on warez sites, but my opinion is: that guys that get pirate copies of your game would not have bought it anyway. i am so pissed by companies that annoy paying customers with copy protection, minutes of non skipable legal text on dvd's and online activation - even short commercials about piracy. just realize: they would not have bought it anyway, so why annoy your paying customers?
mofard
07-01-2009, 05:08 AM
The market is very much in its infancy, the problems we see today are the growing pains. Surely someday things will get better. :p
I really doubt it, there will always be pirates stealing devs work and distributing it to the world, and potentially losing thousands of customers
exosyphen
07-04-2009, 02:44 AM
Hi everyone,
I am developing PC games for a long while now.
Every now and then, I get a bunch of traffic from some torrent site when they post a cracked version. Almost everytime after that, I notice a nice increase in sales volume. So I don't complain that much.
Look at the iPhone piracy from a different perspective.
It's not that easy to locate and install pirated copies.
Personally, my time is worth much more than $1 so I rather buy the game then spend a few hours locating and installing a pirated copy.
Shokz
07-04-2009, 11:31 PM
93i's correct - well, at least with me he is - i only download (PC) games i have absolutely no intention of paying for, that i really don't think would be my type, i think *well, it might turn out that i actually enjoy the game* and it plays out one of two ways;
1) *no, i was right, it's terrible, glad i didn't buy that rubbish*
2) *hey, it's actually really good, i'll pick that up* (I know it sounds stupid but i've done it with things like Prey - if they're worth the money i would have had to pay for them, then i'll purchase them, especially if there's worthwhile online play in the equation)
s0mah
07-05-2009, 09:39 AM
lol
Funny how dev's with complete shit apps rail the loudest against piracy.
How many of you would be willing to offer a full and complete refund to those dissatisfied with an inferior product?
Its just 99 pennies right?
Yagami_Light
07-06-2009, 01:13 AM
i also detected one of my games on warez sites, but my opinion is: that guys that get pirate copies of your game would not have bought it anyway. i am so pissed by companies that annoy paying customers with copy protection, minutes of non skipable legal text on dvd's and online activation - even short commercials about piracy. just realize: they would not have bought it anyway, so why annoy your paying customers?
Finally, someone understands!!! Pirates are going to steal no matter what! Why annoy your paying customers with annoying DRM software?
I've actually been tempted to pirate games because of DRM software. When I heard about Spore's DRM garbage, I seriously considered illegally downloading it instead, to avoid the hassle.
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