What's wrong with Hanto?

[Rula]

Hi guys, I am the developer of Hanto.

http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic454935.jpg http://membo.org/i/hanto.jpg

I have been wondering for a long time what is wrong with it, why is it that so few know about it and download it, and I guess this is the right place to ask these questions since most of you are active hardcore gamers.

I'll try to attack the problem from different parts.

First: the audience.

Audience for abstract strategy games is not the iPhone mainstream, I get that, so I know Hanto will never reach #1 App like Sims 3, The Moron Test, Stick Wars, Peggle, iFart or StoneLoops of Jurassica (I mixed apps I like and dislike on purpose here, I am not saying the average buyer is a moron, just not a strategy gamer).

Anyway, there are lots of chess implementations, there is public for Catan or Carcassonne kind of games, there is certainly public for Risk, checkers, etc. So, what is the problem here? Is it that Hanto is too hard to learn? Too abstract? Or just too unknown?

Second: the quality.

I dare anyone challenge Hanto on this ground. I am not an artist, just a programmer and a hobbyist, but I believe I am quite a quality maniac and have put into this game the best of my efforts. Graphics are polished, controls are intuitive and the music is superb! (the last part is of course only Kevin MacLeod's merit).

About the AI: it has been severely optimized during time, so I believe it is reasonably fast (and challenging). Know that the game IS difficult from the gaming theory's perspective: lots of movement possibilities for the opponent in reaction to each of my moves (much more than Chess, not as much as Go). And, on top of everything, you are running the game on a cell phone. Fancy, nice, polished, but it is a phone.

Third: the replay value

I've seen the expression "three-day app" in this forum referring to apps you buy, use a couple of times and toss away. Well, Hanto has 4 levels of AI, 8 different pre-configured Rule Sets (meaning you can play 8 different variants of the game) and the ability to configure (let me do the math here) 1.64E24 permutations of configurations, but since many of them are the same (indulge me of calculating the combinations), there are less variants (all playable). Let's say that only 1E10 make sense, nay, even less. Let's say that 1E6 make sense. That is a million rule sets.

You could play every time you use Hanto a different game, with different rules, and you would NEVER run out variants. That is some interesting replay value.

Fourth: price and entry level

Hanto has been at 0.99 for a long time. There is even a free version to try the game.

That is as low as it gets.

Fifth: lack of features

Well, apps can always be improved. This thread is partly because of that. Because there are things I know I can improve and there are things I don't know and I'd like you to tell me about them. I am just wondering if it is worth the effort working further on Hanto and if any of these features will really make any difference.

I believe Hanto is not lacking features. It has a lot of them, actually. More than the average app has.

But on the top of my head, I know playing multiplayer games online instead of the current face-to-face mode would be nice. A tutorial would also be nice. I have been suggested some new movements and rules that would also be nice. More out-of-the-box rule sets would also be nice.

The question is this: is Hanto failing to be known and downloaded because of any of those reasons?

Sixth: marketing

I am a hobbyist (yeah, big revelation here: Warima is just a fantasy name, I am all alone and have another full time job). I don't have resources to promote the app, further than a few insignificant bucks in AdWords trying to target a few gaming sites. I didn't get any attention from the big review sites even when I tried to contact them all. Tough luck.

Is that what this is all about? I understand that EA games are on the top not only for their quality (well, some, I think the Monopoly implementation is a piece of s**t) but also for their huge marketing pockets. Can't compete with that. But how about other small games that seem to go better? Other small indie apps that stiff their necks out of the water. Was it just luck? Getting noticed by Apple? What was it?

Seventh (and most delicate): Hive, Hanto and the legal/ethical discussion

I am not unaware of this topic (and this is the first time I will address it publicly). Hanto appeared as a clone of the mechanics of Hive. The reasons why I thought it was a good idea are not relevant now.

The fact that I removed and changed Hanto on a purely ethical basis (and not legal basis as some presume) should be important. When John Yianni expressed his complaints I explained that legally no copyright law was violated, and offered him to give him a cut and making Hanto the official iPhone version of Hive. He was personally offended (not from my offer but from me using his mechanics without telling him, I do understand it, of course) and decided not to accept. Not being my intention to hurt him (as a matter of fact, I admire him), I pulled the application from the store and changed it. I didn't want to throw my work to the trash. So I invented new movement rules and changed Hanto to shape it like it is today: a different board game.

I know some people at the gaming community resented me in the first place. Perhaps some are angry still now. I wasn't thinking clearly when I released Hanto for the first time (I was just thinking legally, and though that John was aware of those legal facts and he wouldn't mind). I was wrong (morally). I made a mistake. I admitted it and rectified my mistake (ain't that the reason why we make mistakes?)

Is that a reason to keep hating me and the great game Hanto is? Is that why the gaming community has turned its back on Hanto and will not give it a chance? Perhaps, I don't know. I believe it should be judged from what it is today, not what it was.

Anyway, I refuse to think this is the only reason behind this. John Yianni has sold like 70k copies of Hive worldwide. There are like 20 million iPhone users (that is mainly one of the reasons, silly me, I thought John would be happy to get a new way of making his game known to the world). So most of the iPhone users are unaware of all this legal / ethical / hurt prides discussion.


So, I ask again: guys, what is wrong with Hanto?

Maybe you have the answer.

[Misguided]

I don't have the answers for you, but I purchased the game some time back, before the modifications. The game was well made, IMO. I liked it. However, it didn't really "grab me" per se, and after playing a few games it fell by the way side. Honestly, the mechanics are a bit fussy for my personal tastes (i.e. all the different movement types don't appeal to me).

[PureSkill]

Well, I havent ever heard of it, and from the pictues, I can tell you that I dont know how to play it.

So, I will say the problem is marketing. I dont know why the review sites didnt response to you, but they should have.

If you promote your game here, then people from other review sites should take notice and add it to their site. (hopefully)

It must be that it just hasnt been noticed yet, but I could be wrong.

[Moonmist]

I honestly think it's because nobody knows what it is? I have no clue what it is? and I also don't know what Hive is either. I have heard a lot of good stuff about it, but I never "jumped off the fence" because I don't know anything about it.

I have no money right now but I might try it once I get some. I don't really know what you could do to increase sales either... It's kind of hard with a game like this. You have to get people to read more about it, because it does sound like a fun game. It's just the problem of with the current name, you have no clue what kind of game it is. That makes most people pass over it instantly.

[jecebn]

Personally, I absolutely love Hanto -it's one of the few games that I forsee havig a permanent place on my phone.

Situations like yours happen much to often in the app store (mainly due to the way the store is set up) - With tons of games being released daily, a lot of times games slip through the cracks of the viewers eyesight and go unnoticed. A rare few will work their way up the charts and be noticed that way - Most of the other "chart-topers" either come from big-name companies or are titles that have a lot of hype surrounding them.

I wish I could give you a concrete answer as to why you're game has not taken off, as I stated before, I love the game - If more people would try out the lite version, I think the game would would do well- Unfortunately, I can't come up with a good solution as to how to get the word out more (paid advertisements, perhaps?)

Anyways, good luck with the game and I hope things change for you soon

[Yagami_Light]

Sorry to see that you had to change the game just because someone thinks they own every variation that will ever be released. It seems like it did end up going in your favor though, because your changes make the game sound more interesting. I don't think customers really care about copyright infringement though. Look at the game "I Dig It". It is an exact clone of "Motherload" (XGen games' flash game), just with a different background.

Anyway, I think your problem is marketing. I have never heard of the game, and it looks really interesting to me. In fact, before I even read the text of your post, I saw the pics, and immediately went to download the lite version. So long as you can get a bit more publicity, you might get a lot more sales.

I recommend posting a thread about it here, on AppVee's forums, and in SlidetoPlay's forums.

You are absolutely right about the graphics. It looks very polished and professional. That was the main thing that got me to download it. My internet connection is really slow though, so it may take a bit for me to actually be able to play it.

[MidianGTX]

For me the problem is the colours. Glaring reds and blues don't go with the theme or the background. That blue from the dragonflies(?) wing would fit, and possibly a colour other than red.

[sphairagame]

Hi there,

I too am a developer and it's a little sad to hear you have not had some success with your app. I'm going to give you a detailed summary of our experiences with the app store and maybe you can use some of this info with your app. We have had decent success with Sphaira but no where near the level of other apps on the marketplace (its just me and another guy working on Sphaira). Our app has infinite replayability with a computer level generator making near infinite number of levels to play with but hardly anyone really talks about that as a major selling point. We got listed on Apples Staff Favorities in the itunes store and that helped some get the word out about our app. A really great site that helped us promote our app was slidetoplay.com; Tim there was one of the first to contact me and tell me how great the app was and did a review of it on their site.

I believe the majority or iphone users care more for the uniqueness of the app and it's instant gratification factor more than they care about quality/replayability. Our app I feel has alot of polish (especially recently due to the feedback from the great guys on this forum, Apple still needs to pubish our new updated version); but our app is not making that much money to where this could be a full time job. Asking for user feedback is very important; in fact I wish I had done that during the initial development of the game. What we have now is a much better product than what we initially published - this is because it had a ton of feedback from users on this forum. If you limit your game design to yourself or to the small team working on the game you don't have enough ideas to tell you what works and what doesnt. Also its important to get feedback early; I had to rewrite alot of my code to get it in line with what people were wanting; if I initially prototyped and pitched the idea here on these forums (someone would obviously copy the idea but that will happen anyway) then I think the game would have developed much faster and better from the start. A first impression is always the one you want to put out. Also since this was my first game (or any app I ever wrote in objective-c) I had some limitations on what I knew how to do; theres going to be some limits on what you can/cannot do and you should share that with people giving you feedback - see if the idea they were offering you is a 'deal breaker' or not and try to find ways to implement those changes if they are really something the people want.


In fact what I've learned from this experience is to cut out infinite replayability for our future apps as it saves alot of time in development, and focus more on a unique play mechanic/idea even if that app is only used a handful of times - while many people may come on the forums here and argue that is not the right approach the fact from what I see on the top 10 is those are the APPS THAT SELL - so thats what the market wants - also since every app is 99 cents you have to expect a mobile game not a console level game; it costs us devs alot of time and money to write these apps too and pay for graphics, music. Having a quality polished app is important for sure; I'm not arguing to put out a fast thrown together garbage app - rather put out something you feel is really good without worrying about replayability/longevity. Some ideas for games that are really unique may be games that can become rather popular but have limited enjoyment factor.

Advertising obviously is important, come on these forums and others and offer promo codes. Try to take a little money and advertise on some of these app sites - most of them only take a few hundred dollars to put an image banner in rotation on their websites. You have to take some risk to get some benefit; some things will work some wont but without trying you will never know. It's hard also because the huge corporations now on the app store have much more $ to throw around and make us tiny devs disappear.

I think it may be a good idea to pool together as indie devs and try to come up with a way to promote each other apps. It's too hard as indies to have enough $ to try to advertise our products on our own. Private message me and maybe we can work together on something to help each other out.

I don't think your game being similar to another is going to kill your app completely; some people will resent it others may not, but the majority of users never even knew about any contraversy. Someone released an app very similar to ours recently - in fact it has the exact same game mechanic; and there was a thread where someone said that app was exactly like ours. I'm not going to get upset about it because it's nice to see others have a different take/mechanic and others are going to have the same ideas going on in their head independent of ever looking at someone elses game/idea - those things happen and it really just makes games better in the long run when people add their own changes. Look at the app store the majority of apps are copies of classics or copies of other top 10 apps - it happens and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[mrbass]

That's the problem right there. There is no way with all those rule sets to remember what a dove does from game to game. Like Yinsh or Dvonn or Quoridor they have some deep strategy but are so simple with the rules that they are quite popular. Simplicity is a huge selling point.

Original hive game has simplistic rules and once you memorize a grasshopper jumpes, beetle moves 1 space and can jump on top, ant moves unlimited spaces it's very simple. With all these variants it's so confusing only a super nerd would appreciate it. I still list the default Hive ruleset on my site and recommend those looking to play Hanto do that. BTW, you can play the java game for free as a guest and play against the Ai http://www.boardspace.net/english/index.shtml


Well, Hanto has 4 levels of AI, 8 different pre-configured Rule Sets (meaning you can play 8 different variants of the game) and the ability to configure (let me do the math here) 1.64E24 permutations of configurations, but since many of them are the same (indulge me of calculating the combinations), there are less variants (all playable). Let's say that only 1E10 make sense, nay, even less. Let's say that 1E6 make sense. That is a million rule sets.

You could play every time you use Hanto a different game, with different rules, and you would NEVER run out variants. That is some interesting replay value.

[Justinth]

People need to look at a screenshot and then "get" the game.
Well that's a good amount of people.

[Rula]

That's the problem right there. There is no way with all those rule sets to remember what a dove does from game to game. Like Yinsh or Dvonn or Quoridor they have some deep strategy but are so simple with the rules that they are quite popular. Simplicity is a huge selling point.

Original hive game has simplistic rules and once you memorize a grasshopper jumpes, beetle moves 1 space and can jump on top, ant moves unlimited spaces it's very simple. With all these variants it's so confusing only a super nerd would appreciate it. I still list the default Hive ruleset on my site and recommend those looking to play Hanto do that. BTW, you can play the java game for free as a guest and play against the Ai http://www.boardspace.net/english/index.shtml

This is one interesting point that does not attack the entry point of the game but does address the "stickiness".

See? That is why I asked guys like you in the first place. You always seem to have good critics for Hanto, Mr Bass, even from the begining.

That is something I keep forgetting. Without being an ubbernerd, it is difficult to memorize what pieces will do and then predict what will happen. People hate not being in control, it makes them feel uneasy.

Now, do you think that showing something while you are playing could help? I was thinking (and then forgot to do it) that a small balloon could pop in one corner showing what a piece will do when you touch it, something graphical.

Another possibility is using lots of drawings (instead of just six) and being consistent with their behavior through (at least) the predefined sets. E.g.: a horse will always walk 5 hexes.

What do you think?

[ImNoSuperMan]

65000 apps. Ok may be just 20% of them might be worth downloading, but still it`s hard to get noticed in AppStore. You are not the only one with this problem. Thousands of devs with decent games are wondering the same.

[HJJ]

I actually have this game, which I purchased when it was first released, but it's not currently on my device.

I found it to be a bit confusing. Granted, I didn't spend too much time with it, but it didn't grab me right away. I am unfamiliar with the other game, "Hive." I usually like strategy games. Maybe I'll sync it back up and give it another try.

Anyway, I think the main reason is that you probably failed to get the proper exposure straight out the gate, which is too bad because it's a nice looking game that I'm sure has an audience out there somewhere.

[sphairagame]

Add a 'show hints' option in your settings screen that can be toggled on/off - with the default being ON when the app is installed. For the first few levels of your game show hints anytime a new move type/piece is moved. Yes your idea of a popup hint ballon is a very good idea.

If your game has complex moves it's important to implement rules in an easy to understand way. A help screen while good is just too much information in one spot that most people wont bother reading - it's like asking someone to read an instruction manual to operate your tv - people would rather just try to figure it out by pushing buttons on the remote to 'figure it out'; popup hints are a good way to present that info in your game in limited quantities when needed without having them to read tons of information or try to find it in large blocks of text in a help screen. The iphone screen is so small having alot of text in one spot is not enjoyable; try to present a short and clear message on what each move/piece does.

[Acidbottle]

this is a difficult question to answer precisely really, i certainly cant add much more than has already been said.

i purchased hanto when the price dropped, the visual style really appeals and i cannot fault this for features, visual style and presentation. there is an extensive in game help section which is very well thought out also.

unfortunately, being a reasonably big strategy fan, i was still mystified by the game after several goes. i lost them all very very quickly and was left frustrated.

its a very niche market that this game will appeal, triazzle is another big big board game that failed really to make a huge impact depite rave reviews. i just dont think board games really appeal to the modern gamer like they once did. ofc scrabble, trivial pursuit etc have done so well as they are enourmous and world famous, hanto/hive simply isnt very familiar :(

i wish you good luck with your app, its really impressive and i dont believe you can change anything that will give it that mass appeal im afraid other than perhaps incorperating a story mode. ive seen several match 3 and mahjongg games addopt this approach and does draw you in a bit more. im uncertain tho that would boost sales by any significance.

[Dark NRG]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!:)

Wow, I just checked your website again yesterday. Saw the last update refered to v1.1, so obviously it needs updated as well ;)

HANTO RULES! THANK YOU for such a wonderful rendition of this game!

You have nothing to apologize for, btw, and there's been some great responses in this thread, as always in TA. Hopefully Big Albie and Hodapp or Arn as well as some others will lend their wisdom :rolleyes:

Here's what I was thinking of emailing you anyhow:
The flexibility of Hanto to incorporate your own rules is wonderful!
I do play pretty standard, making the Sparrow act as the Mosquito.
I've mentioned on this forum and in the iTunes review that I'd love to have the ability to make a tile into the DragonFly rules that a fan has a following for on GameboardGeek.com, where there was much contention I understand about this game, and again, I argued that Tetris or ANY game is suseptaptable, even one of the favorite games here in TA is Spider: The secret of Bryce Manor, mechanics will eventually be copies by someone else LOL.

As mentioned, here's some of the problems, most out of your hands unforutuanately (but being here is a great step! TA members LOVE developers interactions;)

1. numbers game, as stated. 65,000 apps and it's not a shooter heh.
2. The type of game it is.
3. I personally, tho an avid board and card gamer, JUST LEARNED OF HIVE 3 months ago, if that. Hence my search for Hive-like app and found YOU, thank you!!!
4. The AI is freakin killing me, but I love the challenge!
5. I agree with the colors/themes. It would be really great to have other themes/tiles to choose from.
6. Speaking of tiles, the player may have some problem calibrating their thinking to the replacement characters, ie my GF just can't keep remembering that the horse doesn't jump, the sparrow does. The horse seems like the Grasshopper instead of the spider, ect.
7. Updating for multiplayer is a MUST. If your take some time to read other games threads here, thats the #1 complaint: multiplayer and Leaderboard.
Ok, that's two ;)
8. Boy am I glad to hear from you!!!!!!!!

Ok, so to get more sales, I'd say interaction on game forums, and don't be overly apologetic. You have the same rights, (w respect to Yanni, a genius) as any other clone-such game developer, or else there would be like one game of each genre LOL
Also, maybe some advertising. The price is right, the timing might of been bad since the first week is so crucial, but again, that's why so many developers keep updating every other week!
Adding search tags with other games like ORIONS would get the ppl looking for that type of game as well.

As far as what I'd like in Hanto while you're asking, again is: Choice of backgrounds/themes (would love a mediveal theme with Bee=Castle, Spider=Knight, Dragonfly=Dragon, Unicorn=GrassHopper, Moquitto=Wizard, Skelaton=Spider, Princess=Beetle I'm making a homemade version of that for the tabletop now;)
Also, multiplayer, leaderboard, and DRAGONFLY ruleset.

Again, I can't thank you enough since I just learned of and love playing Hive, which I DID buy the tabletop version too, so Jon got his money.
As for him not working it out with you, you tried. I saw it on GBB, when you're friend left a msg on the forum there. The purists will always be upset, but so what. Look at the Catan clone Kolonists. The official version might come out, but yours is SO polished, if you have all that customization and great AI, I'll always play yours. AND, if Yanni comes out with Hive app, you can link key word to Hive. In fact, put "Hive" in the keyword search now if you haven't. Thanks again!!!:D

[diffusion8r]

It looks kinda tacky and boring from the screenshots, and the audiences will have similar games already.

A casual app-buyer like me would be mainly tempted by exciting screenshots. Your game, from first glance looks like some complicated, strange, chinese game.

Although on further inspection, which most app store buyers will not take, it looks like a decent game. Just try and get some well known reviews.

[Gabrielo]

1. I rarely click the icon/title which doesn't give a hint about gameplay. Even though it's good looking, a lot of game in app store is good looking and boring.

2. I have no clue about the game rules when I look at the screenshot. In this situation, I usually click back to app store to give another apps a look. but sometime I will leave after read the description

3. And I found nothing about "how to play" in the description.

4. I have not interest to see is here any lite version, because I don't get the idea of it. so i won't waste my time to download and sync it to my iphone to see if the game funny or not. i will just skip this one


P.S. Before you told me it a new feature with auto-save, please tell me how to play, it's more important than how many AI Levels

[Rula]

3. And I found nothing about "how to play" in the description.

...

P.S. Before you told me it a new feature with auto-save, please tell me how to play, it's more important than how many AI Levels

Ha! You are right. Point taken. Thanks! ;)

And thanks to DarkNRG for the long reply and the enthusiastic support, support like yours and guys like Mr Bass is the only thing that kept me from dropping this app.

[Dark NRG]

Ha! You are right. Point taken. Thanks! ;)

And thanks to DarkNRG for the long reply and the enthusiastic support, support like yours and guys like Mr Bass is the only thing that kept me from dropping this app.

Oh god, don't drop it~~

Heh, we play this all the time. I mean, I love Bakelit, but this is easy to pull out of a pocket and play 2 player with a friend. The Cantonese dude and the one before him made a good point clearer than mine: it's not the app, or even if it was Hive official app, people just don't know the game.

I do hope you continue to support it. Heck, I'd even be blatant and say on the description that it's a Hive like game, but better. I really think the graphics/theme is throwing off people. I'm not a big asian game fan, and would of over looked this except due to what it was (Must.Eat.Birds and Go are exceptions.

Do you plan on wifi/internet game play Rula? Anything else in the works, other games? Since obviously you know your stuff :D

[Ravenblack]

I like the game well enough. :) I wish there are more of such games in the appstore.

I'm not so fond of the color scheme of the pieces though. Would be possible to let us decide the colors of the pieces in the options?

[Rula]

Do you plan on wifi/internet game play Rula? Anything else in the works, other games? Since obviously you know your stuff :D

I was planning to use ScoreLoop or OpenFeint for online challenges (but don't get too excited, I hardly find the time to advance with this lately).

As for other projects, I have some proofs of concept but nothing remotely finished. Whenever I find some time, I wonder between continuing Hanto or starting something completely different. This is one of the reasons for this post.

[DaveMc99]

Whenever I find some time, I wonder between continuing Hanto or starting something completely different.

I like board games on the iPhone but look at the Top 100.. they don't sell unless it is a Hasbro/EA game.

[Rula]

I like the game well enough. :) I wish there are more of such games in the appstore.

I'm not so fond of the color scheme of the pieces though. Would be possible to let us decide the colors of the pieces in the options?

Hahaha! :D Ok, I'll put it on my backlog.

[Stoney Mason]

I always been a booster of Hanto and quite enjoyed the app. I think it's always been a good one and its a pretty polished app.

Two things.

First I think Hanto/Hive is mostly unknown outside of a very niche community. It's hard for something like this to break out on its own.

Secondly I think a game like this (and most boardgame adaptions to the iphone) need some sort of multiplayer online capability whether its real time or asynchronous. Online play can often act as a promotion tool as people are generally more interested to pimp a game if its likely they can play with friends instead of just the CPU. Chess, and Monopoly are some of the few games that can get away with it because of how well know they are but nearly every other boardgame for the American public needs everyway possible for it to be promoted including online play so a community can hopefully build.

[pluto6]

Rula -

I would add one more to your initial post -

8. No one knows how to play?

I have never seen the app - but like games - especially ones that make you think - but I look at the game and am confused. It might be good to have a simple in game tutorial that guides one through a very simple game (if there is such a thing?).

Also, I think that a lot of the games that are on IDevice tend to be short - pick up and play - sorts of games. Things like chess and the like - might be popular - but people generally talk about spending short periods of time on games - so if it is a game that you have to think a lot about, that will limit appeal - as your next move may be many hours away, and people will forget the strategy they were using.

I like the art style - I agree that softening the colors would be nice, and more in keeping an asian theme. The graphics are the hexagons are very nice.
Best of luck.

[DaveMc99]

8. No one knows how to play?


Variation of "Hive"
cY-SibRvHDo

hBtAHbaOawQ

[pluto6]

Thanks Dave -

You are the master of Youtube....

[Dark NRG]

Variation of "Hive"
YouTube: video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cY-SibRvHDo)

YouTube: video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hBtAHbaOawQ)

If you're gonna watch only one of those vids, watch the bottom one. Dice Towers rules for their frequent vid reviews on YouTube. I never liked the first one.

POINT 2: on Boardgamegeek, the hypocrites there complain about Hanto ripping off Jon Yanni's work, YET there are tons of praise for all the photos of users own versions ppl make from art Clay, Nuts and fake gemstones, and other hex tiles.
It's really that simple. A 6 year old could pick it up quick, and the BEST PART, is that it is pure strategy like Chess. No random dice or chance!

To Rula: As with other Devs like those who were just interviewed for Spider, I like learning the backgrounds. What do you do? Have you made games before? How long did it take you to make Hanto, and did you do it your self? Has it "paid you back" in sales vs your time to make it at least?
Finally, I think, if you have a day job, that seeing something else from you would be AWESOME! I've been dying for a Steve Jackson game (sjgames.com) but all they put out was a Fnord app. Where's Munchkin, or Cheez or Knightmare Chess??:cool:

[amn624]

Hi guys, I am the developer of Hanto.



Is that a reason to keep hating me and the great game Hanto is? Is that why the gaming community has turned its back on Hanto and will not give it a chance? Perhaps, I don't know. I believe it should be judged from what it is today, not what it was.

Anyway, I refuse to think this is the only reason behind this. John Yianni has sold like 70k copies of Hive worldwide. There are like 20 million iPhone users (that is mainly one of the reasons, silly me, I thought John would be happy to get a new way of making his game known to the world). So most of the iPhone users are unaware of all this legal / ethical / hurt prides discussion.


So, I ask again: guys, what is wrong with Hanto?

Maybe you have the answer.

The ethical problem is substantive. The game is someone else's idea. There are no other considerations imho. As a former developer, I am extremely unhappy that you can just take Mr. Yianni's creation, morph it a bit and claim you are doing us all a favor. Sucks afaic.

[Dark NRG]

The ethical problem is substantive. The game is someone else's idea. There are no other considerations imho. As a former developer, I am extremely unhappy that you can just take Mr. Yianni's creation, morph it a bit and claim you are doing us all a favor. Sucks afaic.

You're statement does not reflect reality or pragmatism.
I live in Pittsburgh, where the Hamburger was invented.
If you want a hamburger, what are your choices while driving around town?
There's Wendy's, Burger King, McDonald's, Arby's, Sonic. All the same. Ethically challenged? No.

The Ferris Wheel was made here as well. And the Banana Split. And Heinz Ketchup. Same argument.
Should Ford complain that Honda took his idea and is putting a metal body on four wheels?

What games do you play?
Tetris, or Mino?
Zombieville, or did Chillingo do wrong with Inkvaders???
Doom, or Modern Combat? Maybe you should give the dev of iFPS app grief.
iFLight, or Harbor Master? Before iFlight, no such game, or even the genre, existed.
I love Milton Bradley's RISK, but I bought LUX app, and I played it on my Macbook before that. In fact, a search on iTunes shows Strategery, World War, and even Conflict, which states its a "RISK style game". Do you know how many Stratego clones there are on the app store?
It's the same thing thing. You can't patent game rules.

The law is clear. No law was broken. Ethics isn't the right word you're looking for. Perhaps you mean scruples, because ethically you could argue that Yainni stole this and made a confabulation from Go, Checkers and Chess! Boy, that get's my goat, because I would LOVE to go after people who stole my ideas in the past, but I have no standing either. So, have at it!

[Rula]

While I agree on DarkNRG's vision of ideas, progress and choice, I appreciate amn624's opinion and thank him for expressing it here. If I just wanted to hear my own opinion on these matters I wouldn't have asked.

About changing a little or much Yianni's idea, I dare say that the new movements and properties (flying, swapping, kamikaze, hatching, etc) are something new, interesting and worth a look, and Hanto is also a nice playground to develop new properties and discovering new variants (for everyone). The chance to customize and try right away with an AI is very interesting IMHO.

I think some people are not angry because the application exists, but because I am charging for it. If Hanto were free, every Hive fan in the planet would fill me with praises and sympathies. But in the fan's mind, there is this poor struggling guy that invented this boardgame they love (like Rowling and Harry Potter), and this other bad mischievous guy that just snatched the idea and made millions of dollars out of it. Disgusting!

Well, I will answer some of the questions posted here before: it was not free to develop Hanto, and no, I didn't get any money from it yet. Not even the $100 I paid Apple to be a developer(*). Not to mention the Mac I bought to develop or the iPhone. I even take my hours out of the equation (which in the market, makes an order of magnitude higher amount than the other two). I did it because I wanted to do it, of course, but from a monetary perspective this project has been a tremendous disaster. So, why not making it free and stop all the fuzz? Because I don't think that it is fair. I have a full time job in the software industry (but in other technologies). I spent 5 months of nights and weekends to graphically design, code, tune, test and release the first version of Hanto. A few days after it appeared, John complained and I decided to pull it off. It took me around another month to change the rules, invent the new ones and make them customizable. It took me less (about two weeks) to optimize the AI so it would be fast and challenging in any rule set.

So I believe I am entitled to get some money from my work, or at least to get even with the costs. I think the application is a good piece of work, I believe in it, and there is an audience somewhere out there that will enjoy it.

That said, I wrote before that only people like DarkNRG and their enthusiasm has kept me on this project, and I still believe that there is a lot of people that would also enjoy the App, so I keep asking in order to find a way to reach them.

I have got very good answers so far, so please, keep them coming! ;)

Thanks to all.

---------
(*) Before you wonder about the maths, I have sold more than 200 or 300 licenses of Hanto, but Apple keeps 30% and also they give you money when you accumulate $250 in any given currency, this has not happened yet for me (and I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future either).

[Dark NRG]

WOW, that's some story, probably more the rule than the exception tho, with how the app store works. Either you hit the jackpot, or you don't break even bc of lack of exposure. I'd send a press release to some of the app websites, even ARN on TA or Hodapp, and other review sites. Just the nature of the story with Yainni is newsworthy and and interesting example of what happens daily, like in the forum today Warp Defense has a buzz about being a clone of Geo Defense. Following your passion is paramount, so I'm glad it was something I enjoy;)
I wouldn't give up, as motivational speakers would say, it could be your 2nd/3rd game that hits paydirt! Chalk this up to experience, and maybe collaborate with another indie like the dude on the first page in this thread offered! You have the talent obviously, man I wish I could do what you can do, I'd be flooding the app store every month with something simple like Zombies and Me (EA's 8lb Gorilla)

You're in Argentina or something, I think I saw on another site?
Again, thanks for sharing, I appriciate your work even more. I believe you may be the ONLY PERSON that even ever gave another game maker the time of day and even pulled and modified your game, everyone else would say, "Screw you" LOL

Hey, imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery :p

[jase23]

I bought a copy of Hanto today, it is an extremely polished game. I've only played it for a few minutes, and so I don't quite understand why I am allowed to place my pieces on some hexes that are highlighted, and not others. The music is great. Would it ever be feasible to release the soundtrack as a free mp3 download for purchasers of the game, as Chillingo does for anyone who buys Zen Bound?

Another great feature would be a similar system of playing with friends as has been implemented in "chess with friends." Push notification of a move would be even better.

[Dark NRG]

I bought a copy of Hanto today, it is an extremely polished game. I've only played it for a few minutes, and so I don't quite understand why I am allowed to place my pieces on some hexes that are highlighted, and not others. The music is great. Would it ever be feasible to release the soundtrack as a free mp3 download for purchasers of the game, as Chillingo does for anyone who buys Zen Bound?

Another great feature would be a similar system of playing with friends as has been implemented in "chess with friends." Push notification of a move would be even better.

Hey Jase23! Welcome to TA! Check out the bottom video that DaveMc99 put up on page 3 of this thread. It will simply expain whats being well done in Hanto: showing the "legal" moves for the pieces that you're trying to move, given the rules for that piece, whether the basic rules or the custom rules you might of assigned it. For example, the Horse moves in Hanto like the Spider in the table game HIVE: "Must move 3 spaces". Also, it can not climb on top of another piece like the Beatle in HIVE (Crab in Hanto), or squeeze into a non-free flowing hex space, in other words, it must be able to move in and out of an empty space without "jumping". So, when you see the the highlights, those are legal moves for that piece you're touching. Any other space you can't move to, hence the strategy.
Also, you can only be touching your piece/color, and can not touch your opponents piece/color, the FIRST TIME the piece is being played. This alone might throw you off until understanding the spawning of the piece. After the first move for any played tile, it can touch anything, givin it's a legal move or jump for that piece. In that sense, Hanto is the ultimate HIVE trainer/tutor :D

BTW I love the Chess with friends for Hanto idea!!! A LOT!

[Rula]

The music is great. Would it ever be feasible to release the soundtrack as a free mp3 download for purchasers of the game, as Chillingo does for anyone who buys Zen Bound?

You can download it for free directly from Kevin's site:
http://www.incompetech.com/

You will have to find them individually, though. The Hanto Soundtrack consists of these songs:
- FrostWaltz
- AngloZulu
- Arcadia
- FeralChase
- Machinations
- Shamanistic
- Supernatural
- TempleOfTheManes
- Faceoff
- MysterySting

Kevin has a lot of other great songs too. He is a very talented composer.

[Dark NRG]

You can download it for free directly from Kevin's site:
http://www.incompetech.com/

You will have to find them individually, though. The Hanto Soundtrack consists of these songs:
- FrostWaltz
- AngloZulu
- Arcadia
- FeralChase
- Machinations
- Shamanistic
- Supernatural
- TempleOfTheManes
- Faceoff
- MysterySting

Kevin has a lot of other great songs too. He is a very talented composer.

Just noticed the music. Is that public domain. I might not like the Japanese theme, but I do love the music as well as the game!! Thanks for the link and song info :D

[jase23]

Thank you very much for the link to the songs.

by the way, I got a friend to purchase Hanto yesterday as well, and she was also impressed by the overall design and the music.

[jase23]

Thanks for the tips on the rules, and pointing me to the video. I've managed to play a few times and beat the computer on easiest setting. I understand more of the rules, now I just have to learn when I cannot move certain pieces that are already on the board.

I think when playing video games on the iphone, I get into an expectation that all of the rules and gameplay should be instantly absorbed and understood. But I am a club level chess player, and if i were new to chess, I certainly could not pick up an iphone chess game and learn the rules of chess and start playing at a decent level within 2 minutes.

A "chess with friends" style implementation, the ability to send moves back and forth to your friends and to people in your iphone contact list, and even push notification of a new move by your partner, would be ideal for Hanto.

[abstractgamefreak]

Although this surely is of absolutely no importance for most iPhone gamers, quite a number of boardgame enthusiasts like me disliked the idea of buying a Hive ripoff. I've met John Yianni personally (a decent guy, by the way), and, while he designed other games as well, Hive may be THE one truly ingenious design of his lifetime. So I can very well understand, why he is annoyed. Idea theft is a very delicate issue in the boardgame world, as there is unfortunately no legal protection against that. Boardgame inventors work really hard to realize unique ideas, create something new, to get 'it' exactly right and rarely making a living with it. Who cares about the umpteenth Match-3 clone? So don't compare apples with oranges.

Other than that -while I happily would have bought an 'official' Hive adaption- a game with similar mechanisms and slightly different rule sets, new piece sets to learn, which are quite confusing with the other game in mind (why not choose something completely different- aliens? knights? take what you want but not ANIMALS again) is, at least for me, owner of 300+ boardgames, not as attractive as you would think ;-) So you missed here if not the main- but an important part of your target audience.

I bought your app to give it a try, and I appreciate the efforts to implement new ideas, but there is no lasting appeal for me, sorry. It's just too (confusingly) similar to that game I've played many many times with my friends. And, looking at your additions from a boardgame designer's view, more is sometimes less. With the existing simple rules Hive is already a very deep game. There are many elaborate chess clones out there, look how little successful they are: nobody needs another dozen movement options. Games like YINSH or DVONN (to quote Mr.Bass) have the charm of simplicity and instant learnability. HIVE has it, too. HANTO, unfortunately, has missed the mark here, albeit for understandable necessities.

Why you didn't contact John before releasing Hanto remains a mystery to me- there are many "official" boardgame adaptions in the App store, not only trivial ones, take Reiner Knizia for example. I hope you are more lucky with your next app...

Excuse my awkward writing, this is not my native language!

[Dark NRG]

@abstractgamefreak You know what? That's your first ever post, so first of all I'd like to welcome you to TA.

That said, there are Terms of Service to participate here. Violations of which will have you banned.

I LOVE TA, but:

I'm willing to get banned over criticizing stupid s@#$ like you just wrote.

This is getting old now. I've said my piece. I live where Apple is: America.
No laws are being broken, but hey, we dont release convicted plane bombers that kill 200+ passengers, either:mad:

And HIVE is not "Genius", it's "obvious". It's not a mechanic like M:TG, Carcassonne, or a Rinzer game.
I could make Apples to Apples or Fluxx clones all day long. Just like Tetris. Again, Flight Control dev should sue Harbor Master dev? Are they unethical as well? OR is that different because it wasn't a boardgame first or something weird like that? What's your parameters for passing judgement? And maybe Jon's an asshole. Sounds like it to me. Assholes can make good games.

In closing, make sure to stop by BoardGameGeek.com and tell your hypocrite buddies I said "hi". And enjoy the dozens of photos of Hive fan/player table clones made of baked clay and steel/brass bolts with gemstones. I'm making one out of foam board, come sue me. You know what? I might just go sell them at the flea market. Yeah, think I will. Probably make more money than Hanto....

[abstractgamefreak]

@abstractgamefreak You know what? That's your first ever post, so first of all I'd like to welcome you to TA.

Why, thank you Dark NRG for that warm welcome!

I live where Apple is: America. (...)
In closing, make sure to stop by BoardGameGeek.com and tell your hypocrite buddies I said "hi". And enjoy the dozens of photos of Hive fan/player table clones made of baked clay and steel/brass bolts with gemstones. I'm making one out of foam board, come sue me. You know what? I might just go sell them at the flea market. Yeah, think I will. Probably make more money than Hanto....

That's maybe the problem, where you live: to remember, that not everything's about money. Never mind...

[cptlockheed]

Wow. This is good discussion.

Rula, I appreciate your decision to make this thread. I got Hanto when it was brand new and participated in the discussion at BGG. For old school/hardcore/veteran boardgamers the ethics point can be tough. I'm one of those, but I think the biggest problem here is that Hive is such a cult or niche game, strongly identified with one person (John Yianni). Making a clone or variant of Risk pisses no one off, because Risk is a) old, b) widely known, c) made by a big faceless corporation, d) made millions of dollars already. Making a clone of Hive was a more intimate act, and I can understand how John and some BGGers got upset by it. I won't delve any deeper into this, as I'm writing this on my iPhone and also english is not my native language so I can't express my thoughts so fluently. You get my drift, anyway. Personally, I don't think making Hanto was such a despicable act, it's legal and ideas are (mostly) free. Internet is full of free java clones of boardgames. World changes. Sure, there was some thoughtlessness and bad judgement involved on Rula's part, but no true offense IMO.

To answer the original question: for me, the game is just too dry. I don't like pure abstract games. Hive/Hanto is clever, but boring, just like Chess, Checkers or Tic-Tac-Toe. I love eurogames like Knizia's Samurai though, so there is a fine line but I'm not sure where it goes :)
Maybe it is the two-player, direct confrontational aspect. Introducing more players brings some unpredictability to game, spicing it up. Three-player Hanto, perhaps?

To reach target audience, you just need more visibility. Maybe this discussion helps, even. Any publicity is good publicity, eh?

[pharmx]

relax guys...everyone is entitled to their own opinions! for example, I don't think anyone should have to work weekends...yet here I am stuck at work :(

[99c_gamer]

the way things are on the app store I wont even try a demo unless I have some idea that it might be fun.
So unless you've played Hive it's hard to get an idea from the screenshots that it's a fun game.
Looks really well made though.

oh man I just read the ordeal about trying to cash in on someone else's idea. bad....very bad.

[Rula]

I think the biggest problem here is that Hive is such a cult or niche game, strongly identified with one person (John Yianni). Making a clone or variant of Risk pisses no one off, because Risk is a) old, b) widely known, c) made by a big faceless corporation, d) made millions of dollars already. Making a clone of Hive was a more intimate act, and I can understand how John and some BGGers got upset by it.

Well, I know this now. I didn't know this before. That is the answer I can give to abstractgamefreak. I don't live in Europe, games like Hive are not remotely known in Argentina, I knew the game by chance on the Internet and I thought it was a big faceless hit like Risk, and contacting the author seemed like contacting Hasbro at the time. I found out I messed up with someone's baby too late. When I saw that the guy cared and had a face, it was too late: he was pissed beyond any amends. So I pulled it out, even when I had broken no law, and changed it. Maybe I will keep changing it until it is really far from the begining, or drop it and make it free, idk.

@DarkNRG: please don't get banned. You are like Hanto's #1 fan of all times ;) It would be a shame to loose you in this discussion.

[jase23]

I think Hive and Hanto actually help each other much more than they compete with each other. I would have never heard of the game Hive if it were not for Hanto and this message board. If I like the basic gameplay mechanics of Hanto, then I would be much more likely to go and purchase the physical game Hive. If I wanted to play such a game with my friends in person, then I would definitely get the physical game Hive, and even though the games are not identical, I could practice my Hive skills by playing Hanto, and vice-versa.

Again, to take an analogy from chess, iPhone chess can be very fun to play against the computer or remotely, but if I am playing with another person in a coffee shop or at home or whatever, I'm going to use a physical board and pieces, and not try to hand an iPhone back and forth.

It looks to me as though because of the nature of the game, Hive is ideal to play in person with physical tiles. So again, I see Hive and Hanto benefiting each other much more than Hanto harms Hive in some way. You guys are natural allies, and the developer of Hive should hope that you are successful, because it would only help to popularize the basic Hive concept and gameplay. In fact, if he does not develop his own Hive iPhone app, he should encourage you to produce a rule-set on Hanto that is identical to Hive.

Don't make your app free Rula, we will get you enough sales so that Apple will release your earnings, and perhaps you might even be able to implement the "chess with friends" style play and push notification of moves.

[s0mah]

Great game dev!

I've been enjoying for Hanto for awhile now. The visuals are sharp, the audio is great, and the gameplay is very slick. Merge these three things with a very easy to use rules editor and you have definitely created a winrar, imo.

I agree with everyone else that your problem with pushing units has to do with the fact that the game is incredibly niche. I also believe that there's this perceived high entry level to Hanto; the rules are simple to pick up but from the outside they look very daunting. I think that this is especially true for people just browsing through the iTunes store looking for the next thing after Monopoly.

unfamiliar rules + new product name + original concept not exactly popular past obscure= a very hard sale.

I'm not sure what changes could be made to the game to make it more mainstream popular. You've already created something very professional, and I don't think that something easy like adding a million tile sets will increase your sales.

ps.

The ability to name player rule sets would be awesome..

pss.

I forgot to mention thx for the pass and play feature. It's getting left out of a lot of apps lately.

[Dark NRG]

I think Hive and Hanto actually help each other much more than they compete with each other. I would have never heard of the game Hive if it were not for Hanto and this message board. If I like the basic gameplay mechanics of Hanto, then I would be much more likely to go and purchase the physical game Hive. If I wanted to play such a game with my friends in person, then I would definitely get the physical game Hive, and even though the games are not identical, I could practice my Hive skills by playing Hanto, and vice-versa.

Again, to take an analogy from chess, iPhone chess can be very fun to play against the computer or remotely, but if I am playing with another person in a coffee shop or at home or whatever, I'm going to use a physical board and pieces, and not try to hand an iPhone back and forth.

It looks to me as though because of the nature of the game, Hive is ideal to play in person with physical tiles. So again, I see Hive and Hanto benefiting each other much more than Hanto harms Hive in some way. You guys are natural allies, and the developer of Hive should hope that you are successful, because it would only help to popularize the basic Hive concept and gameplay. In fact, if he does not develop his own Hive iPhone app, he should encourage you to produce a rule-set on Hanto that is identical to Hive.

Don't make your app free Rula, we will get you enough sales so that Apple will release your earnings, and perhaps you might even be able to implement the "chess with friends" style play and push notification of moves.

WOW, +1! That may be the most reasonable, well stated point in this whole thread. Puts me to shame, my friend:rolleyes:

Ok, I think I'll stay away from addressing those whom are American Capitalist haters. But, feel free to send some free Health Care my way ;)

@Rula I've been in worse scraps here, and have had to wipe egg off my face as well :rolleyes:
Also, please, just notice the Magic The Gathering "clone" Orions (from Chillingo) thread, where there are avid fans that are even now arguing and crying that the Dev made it clear they do not intend to maintain or update the game (but release in the unforeseeable future two expansions that's on the web), and the game hasn't seen an update since December 11th, YET the price is $4.99 USD! They don't care, and will still take the money, and none goes to, or even should, to WIZARDS of the Coast. Like Hanto and Kolonists, and unlike Tetris, Doom, or Risk, it's the only option on the app store for that sort of game.

I challenge anyone who LOVES their fav game that is a clone to, out of principle, "give it up" from your iPhone and live without it. Why should you, if its legal, and the creator has no intention of making the original, such as M:TG's case. I'm not about to play it on Xbox 360.

Another note: It's amazing all the posters who apologize for their poor English don't like Hanto, and yet their English is impeccable.

@s0mah +1 name player rule set. THAT'S what I'm missing.
Also, the rules/movement "seem" clear enuf, but you're right that it's apparently daunting for some reason unless you delve into it. Maybe that point should be more stated, and perhaps a schematic or illustration in color showing piece movement, like in the Hive rules or chess?

@99c gamer I really would love to know why no-one is addressing the Tetris arguement, bc it was made in Russia? Or made it's "money" so it's fair game? Geesh, talk about being a Capitalist! More to the point, the new "genre" of line draw games, I believe started by Flight Control. Harbor Master is making money, and stole the idea. I'm playing Lions Pride, same thing. You all want to ignore that, and they're indie devs taking someone's idea and programming, and making their own. Airport is a complete knock-off, so I don't want to hear hypocritical statements without a sound argument. I've given hell to devs here before, over quality or shilling (fake rave reviews). I'm no stranger to that. But we DO try to encourage devs, especially indies, and ones that do such a great job on their app should be commended. I've done my time at GAMMA and GenCons. I know the industry as much as any gamer. And if I could develop my own version of Munchkins or a "fantasy" version of "Hill 218", I WOULD. And I'd sleep at night, even if I made no money, just so I can play myself.

@Pharmx Sympathies brother ;)

Edit: Ok, I'll be back. I'm goin out with my GF for our favorite Pizza shop in Pittsburgh (yeah, as in Steelers). Gonna take with us the "official" HIVE and play there, which is our Friday night tradition :p

[99c_gamer]

it's different when you copy a game that's already on the platform. You're coming in with a second option for people who played and liked liked the original.
If there's no Hive iphone then you're really just syphoning potential sales away from the true game's creator. I know it's a fine line here that's open to debate.

But at least can we agree that once you've been contacted by the original developer
snubbing him and release your game anyway is not the right thing to do?

[bonerswild]

I personally love Hanto. I bought it when it first came out. I never heard of Hive at the time, but I believe it was mentioned in the description. Before I downloaded Hanto I first checked to see if Hive was available. It wasn't! So, too bad for the creator. What? I shouldn't download Stone Loops just because Zuma isn't available? That's their fault, not the people who "legally" fill a need and a demand. And besides, I heard of Hanto first. Hanto made me aware of Hive. So in a way the creator should be thanking you..........My only suggestion is to maybe change a few very minor details here and there, and do it often. This way you re-submit frequently and it will keep Hanto fresh in the sort by release date in the mobile AppStore. That's how I and most of my friends find their new games. It's all about not getting buried. I don't know if that's easy to do, but it's the only thing I can think of.......Thanks for the great game.

[Dark NRG]

it's different when you copy a game that's already on the platform. You're coming in with a second option for people who played and liked liked the original.
If there's no Hive iphone then you're really just syphoning potential sales away from the true game's creator. I know it's a fine line here that's open to debate.

But at least can we agree that once you've been contacted by the original developer
snubbing him and release your game anyway is not the right thing to do?

Ok, I see what you're saying. We might just have to disagree. I don't see "already on the platform" being a tacit premise by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly still not backed by any form of law worldwide. Do I agree with it personally, no. As I've stated, I myself got screwed. But I understand the risks, and how the REAL WORLD WORKS. And again, no form of HIVE "ever" came out, and it was legal for someone to make a knock off, then I and others are being denied our pursuit of happiness, a market in itself that could bear free market exchange.
So, by your argument, since the "line-draw" games like Harbor Master are all made on the iPhone already, and weren't somewhere else, are you saying that the dev of Flight Control would have a case, ethical or otherwise, if someone made "Wing Control" board game just like it?
Nah.

Finally, just fyi, there are many other apps in the same situation. Kolonists is a prime example, and Catan is has been announced by Hodapp recently here on TA. But since March or so, Kolonists is a total clone of Catan. No other Catan on this platform prior to that as you are arguing.

And nobody said crap about it. Seems "HIVE" is a hot topic, a contentious one at that. I appriciate Rusa explaining the Genesis, which we all experience in different facets of life, to no blame to anyone, and definitely not out of malice:
"Well, I know this now. I didn't know this before. That is the answer I can give to abstractgamefreak. I don't live in Europe, games like Hive are not remotely known in Argentina, I knew the game by chance on the Internet and I thought it was a big faceless hit like Risk, and contacting the author seemed like contacting Hasbro at the time. I found out I messed up with someone's baby too late. When I saw that the guy cared and had a face, it was too late: he was pissed beyond any amends. So I pulled it out, even when I had broken no law, and changed it. Maybe I will keep changing it until it is really far from the begining, or drop it and make it free, idk."

And Jess had the best comment of anyone in this whole forum. To sum up:
This is helping both Hive and Hanto. Everyone wins.
Now, that's a good game, if you ask me! :D

[Syndicated Puzzles]

Just imagine if you would have asked for permission first? If you could have used the Trademark, graphics and game play of Hive? You wouldn't be here on this forum complaining about the lack of sales. Most games by good game inventors and designers have one common element. They are stripped down to their simplest elements. To mess with that simplicity is dangerous.

Your Karma on Hanto is going to keep the app from doing well. Start some new projects with your own ideas or enlist some good help.
You will see the difference. Simplicity is worth gold!

I really think this attitude that everything can be copied really stinks. It is very simple for me. If a game is a direct copy of a game and I am aware of the fact that it is, I would always support the inventor. It is and can be that simple.

Games and puzzles take a lot of work to invent, develop, publish and promote, to simply say it is OK to copy someone's work is very wrong.

[bonerswild]

I don't understand why everyone is down on this Hanto guy? All he did was ask a question of, what can he do to make the game more successful. He raised some valid points. And all everyone is doing is harping on him for copying a game. A game that doesn't exist on the iPhone. Big deal. If the inventor of Hive is so hurt and upset then please, create a game half as good as Hanto. I'm sorry to say, but everyone Copies everything these days. All the new games coming out are copies in one form or another. Didn't Gameloft just release a game very similar to GTA. What about Stone Loops and Atlantis? Luxor was late to the game. When there is a demand or an opening, people and devs are going to fill it. And like I said before, I heard of Hanto first. I would have been willing to buy a Hive app or even see what the original was about, but not now. Not after hearing how upset he was. What if I was a fan of Hive first? What if I wanted a mobile version of my favorite game? He isn't producing one, so I'm not supposed to play it. You know not everyone has the time to sit down with a real board game on family night. Get over the copying thing people, if that was a real problem you'd have to delete a large portion of your apps, then go home and throw out half your DVDs and CDs.

[Chronical]

If you ask me what's wrong with Hanto, maybe it's because there are too much games like this one in the app store..
I think most people like 3d games - like RPGs, or Shooters.
It's just my opinion, because I'm one of the guys who don't like Puzzles - or games like Hanto. Maybe it's because this kind of games don't really have a story, say - like Zenonia or Resident Evil.

[markx2]

I agree with bonerswild.

To those that are bitching please go rip into all the match-3 games, all the chess games, all the '5 in a row' games, the two 'auditorium' games, the solitaire games, the pong games, the falling blocks games and many many more.

I forgot about TD - please feel free to rip into those nasty horrible devs who dared to copy that!

If you don't then be constructive - or should TA turn into some personal bitchfest just for you?

[Dark NRG]

@Syndicated Puzzles DUDE, seriously, Karma?? Unethical ppl and devs are getting rich, so like what, you think they'll come back as bugs or something?
If you wanna get preachy about "Karma", tell that to the MILLIONS of Karma believers wiped out by the Tsunami in 200(5). Life is life. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, unless they get off their ass and do something which the market demands.

@Bonerswild Agreed. Look at all the knockoffs of big movies, even Titanic, without story permission. It's called Creative Plagerism. Not to mention the porn industry making their OWN version of Pirates of the Carribean LOL

@Chronical man, gotta disagree with that one friend. It seems the opposite, unless you're joking.

[Rula]

I believe that the discussion has got to a point were people will not reach a consensus (and there is no reason for that to happen, of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion). So I will try to re-focus on something more productive and closer to the reason of this post.

I've been summarizing the answers I got so far (the ones with problems were I can do something about, of course).

Possible causes and solutions:

- People can't figure out what the game is about in the store (I believe I fixed that one by changing the iTunes description).
- Lack of stickiness: the game got too complex, there is too much to digest. People get lost with the different movements and have a hard time memorizing them. Possible solutions: reference balloons while playing, different fixed characters per movement.
- The game is still too complex, variations have stripped it of its simplicity. Well, I don't see much I can do there except trying to get an incremental coherence in the rule sets I provide: first you use a horse that runs, then the second adds a crane that flies, etc.
- Lack of exposition: too many apps, Hanto is lost in the sea. Possible solutions: contact some guys at TA to get a review, post in AppVee and Slide To Play, paid advertising, finding a way to promote together with other indie apps, update more often.
- Color scheme: this one was a surprise for me. Some people dislike the colors (and might be preventing them from buying the app?). Possible solutions: provide some customization options, upload more varied screen-shots.
- No one knows the rules. Possible solutions: make a video or a tutorial.

Suggestions for improvement / new features:
- Multiplayer: wifi / internet
- Leaderboard
- Push notifications like chess with friends
- More than 2 players per game
- Ability to name player rule sets

Other suggestions:
- Drop this and make another game.

That is what I think I got so far. What do you think? Am I forgetting something? Any new angle we have not seen?

(BTW, thanks to all for your time so far, you have been very kind paying attention to this post)

[DaveMc99]

- Color scheme: this one was a surprise for me. Some people dislike the colors (and might be preventing them from buying the app?).


What about going with a different theme? Such as units of the Military.

[nattylux]

Really interesting discussion here. I'd like to weigh in as a dev who's seen the ups and downs of the App Store. Also, I think I represent the majority of your target audience in that I've never seen or heard of Hive or Hanto before, but I do like puzzles.

First of all, you may be asking the wrong question. There may be nothing "wrong" with Hanto. Remember that the overwhelming majority of all App Store games do not turn a profit. Just because you don't win the lottery doesn't mean that there's something "wrong" with your game. In fact, it seems that many things are "right" in that you have some ardent fans who enjoy and love your game.


So let me rephrase your question. Instead of being negative about it and asking what's wrong with Hanto, let's ask "How can Hanto sell more?" I think that's a great question to ask. I have a few suggestions, in no particular order:


Marketing. If you're not marketing your game, nobody will do it for you. If you haven't written to the review sites yet, then by all means, do so! Getting coverage is hard, but if you don't contact the sites yourself, then you're probably not going to get any coverage at all. Arn usually likes unusual and polished puzzle games, and Hanto looks right up his alley. You're doing your game a huge disservice if you don't spend just a few hours one night writing about it to as many review sites as you can. Include a description, screenshots, and gameplay video if possible.



Name. Aside from marketing, I think the biggest thing holding you back is the name, honestly. Hanto means nothing to me, and I would assume most people. So you have a name that means nothing and an icon that means nothing - people just aren't going to click on it. People don't like unfamiliar things. Check out the top 100 games. They either have a name/icon that means something, or it's known IP (like Tetris). I think just renaming your game to be something concrete or understandable (Pentagons, Apiary, whatever) - would go a long way to get people to click on your icon.



Icon. Check out Arn's post (http://normalkid.com/2009/07/22/app-icons-are-itty-bitty-banner-ads/) on the importance of icons in the App Store. It's the most important 57x57px you'll make. Your app looks polished, but the icon doesn't do it justice. Some things I'd suggest:


Use a blue tile for the icon, not red. It's been shown that people don't like clicking on red things - it looks like a warning or stay-away sign.
Instead of the butterfly, I'd use the bird (the flying one, not the circular one). It's much simpler and pleasing to the eye.
Put it on a black background. There are too many colors in the icon as it stands. So I'd suggest just a single blue tile with the bird on it on a black background.


I think trying all the above would give your game a much better chance. But if you do that and the game is still not selling (as most games don't, like I mentioned before) - then definitely the best thing to do is move on to your next project. I've seen way too many devs put in months and months of work into creating and then updating a game that just isn't going to sell. It's completely disheartening and does nobody any good. You just need to learn the lessons that need to be learned, and keep on keepin' on :)

Oh, and don't get mired in the Karma debate. I'm sure it seems very personal and emotional to you, but I assure you that the vast majority of your target audience don't know or care about our little developer dramas.

Good luck to you! Sorry for the rambling... caffeine overdose today ;)

[Maythius]

I don't understand why everyone is down on this Hanto guy? All he did was ask a question of, what can he do to make the game more successful. He raised some valid points. And all everyone is doing is harping on him for copying a game. A game that doesn't exist on the iPhone. Big deal. If the inventor of Hive is so hurt and upset then please, create a game half as good as Hanto. I'm sorry to say, but everyone Copies everything these days. All the new games coming out are copies in one form or another. Didn't Gameloft just release a game very similar to GTA. What about Stone Loops and Atlantis? Luxor was late to the game. When there is a demand or an opening, people and devs are going to fill it. And like I said before, I heard of Hanto first. I would have been willing to buy a Hive app or even see what the original was about, but not now. Not after hearing how upset he was. What if I was a fan of Hive first? What if I wanted a mobile version of my favorite game? He isn't producing one, so I'm not supposed to play it. You know not everyone has the time to sit down with a real board game on family night. Get over the copying thing people, if that was a real problem you'd have to delete a large portion of your apps, then go home and throw out half your DVDs and CDs.

Agreed! I think this thread has blown out of proportion. If the creator of Hive wants to make his own app, then there you go! He can advertise saying it's "the original!"

Hanto is polished and fun, and there is no reason for anyone to knock it down.

[bonerswild]

I'd like to see this study where people don't like pushing red objects. Well ok, I can see why, but I don't think that study relates to opening an app on your iPhone. If you're aware of that study then I'm sure you're aware of the one that says the color Blue actually depresses people. It's also less apetizing. Stick with the red icon, change it a little but keep the red. It's proven that red excites people. They eat more and spend more money when red is involved.

[pluto6]

I'd like to see this study where people don't like pushing red objects. Well ok, I can see why, but I don't think that study relates to opening an app on your iPhone. If you're aware of that study then I'm sure you're aware of the one that says the color Blue actually depresses people. It's also less apetizing. Stick with the red icon, change it a little but keep the red. It's proven that red excites people. They eat more and spend more money when red is involved.

There are studies that relate colors to all sorts of things .. However - Nattylux has one of the top selling apps in the store - and so - if I was going to listen to anyone - it would be someone with a proven track record -unless you have credentials similar to hers.

[DaveMc99]

http://mblapps.com/many-iphone-application-icons-are-seeing-blue/
Sensational Color calls the color blue everyone’s “overwhelming “favorite color.” Also, Pantone named the color “Blue Iris” 2008 Color of the Year saying “Combining the stable and calming aspects of blue with the mystical and spiritual qualities of purple, Blue Iris satisfies the need for reassurance in a complex world, while adding a hint of mystery and excitement.”

[Dark NRG]

Oh, and don't get mired in the Karma debate. I'm sure it seems very personal and emotional to you, but I assure you that the vast majority of your target audience don't know or care about our little developer dramas.



Amen, er, RIGHT ON! ;)

@DaveMC99 Military, or as I said, like a mediaval theme with the bee as a cloud castle or something fun and colorful!

@Rusa WELL WRITTEN... i just want a grasshopper dammit (jk) :p

@Bonerswild and others: well, there's so many options, even brushed metal or florescents-like in a kids game. On boardgamegeek someone made a baked clay hex tile version of Hive with press-in bugs impressions and buffed it. It looks platinum and gold, really nice. Photos are up there. I'll try to rip it and post it.

[Rula]

@nattylux: Thanks for all the advise! All of it. It is quite encouraging, actually.

I do believe the store is a lottery and I am certain that Hanto will not be a #1 hit because of the kind of game it is (I do understand the nature of the store a little better now, and looking back, I wouldn't have started with something like this but something completely different... I do have other projects in mind, and a bit in code...). But I also think that Hanto is definitely missing a major part of its audience with 2 to 7 downloads a day (worldwide). So I would like to try a few things before giving up on this.

I've tried contacting the sites with a description, screenshots, etc., but I had no luck. I'll try to come up with a different speech, perhaps.


Name. Aside from marketing, I think the biggest thing holding you back is the name, honestly. Hanto means nothing to me, and I would assume most people. So you have a name that means nothing and an icon that means nothing - people just aren't going to click on it. People don't like unfamiliar things. Check out the top 100 games. They either have a name/icon that means something, or it's known IP (like Tetris). I think just renaming your game to be something concrete or understandable (Pentagons, Apiary, whatever) - would go a long way to get people to click on your icon.

Icon. Check out Arn's post (http://normalkid.com/2009/07/22/app-icons-are-itty-bitty-banner-ads/) on the importance of icons in the App Store. It's the most important 57x57px you'll make. Your app looks polished, but the icon doesn't do it justice. Some things I'd suggest:

Use a blue tile for the icon, not red. It's been shown that people don't like clicking on red things - it looks like a warning or stay-away sign.
Instead of the butterfly, I'd use the bird (the flying one, not the circular one). It's much simpler and pleasing to the eye.
Put it on a black background. There are too many colors in the icon as it stands. So I'd suggest just a single blue tile with the bird on it on a black background.



Those two, on the other hand, are things I can try without a lot of effort. Worst case they can be harmless, best case, they could work... :D


Good luck to you! Sorry for the rambling... caffeine overdose today ;)


Thanks again! ;)

[bonerswild]

Yes I am aware of the studies on colors. However, I disagree about a blue icon. You don't want a calming effect when trying to get someone excited about buying your game. That seems pretty obvious to me. I have 168 apps and maybe 2 have blue icons. I have a bunch of red icons though. Now is that because of the game itself or the icon? Either way, I bought more red ones. Tell me, if Blue is such an overwhelming favorite. Why are there way more Red cars on the road then Blue. In fact, a lot of car manufacturers stopped offering Blue as a color because no one buys them.

[Dark NRG]

Yes I am aware of the studies on colors. However, I disagree about a blue icon. You don't want a calming effect when trying to get someone excited about buying your game. That seems pretty obvious to me. I have 168 apps and maybe 2 have blue icons. I have a bunch of red icons though. Now is that because of the game itself or the icon? Either way, I bought more red ones. Tell me, if Blue is such an overwhelming favorite. Why are there way more Red cars on the road then Blue. In fact, a lot of car manufacturers stopped offering Blue as a color because no one buys them.

+1 Agreed. I just looked up an article about red, recalling something on the news about it a year ago. If you want to sell something, put it in a red box as they say. I still think it's the "theme", and maybe make the colors brighter rather than off or cooler. http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/10/29/the-color-red-attracts-men-to-women/3227.html

@Rusa WHOOPS! I meant to say "DRAGONFLY" :p sorry. But yeah, I like what you wrote, and think that bubbles or diagram for quick references THAT CAN BE TURNED ON OR OFF IN THE PREFS for beginners would be nice.

THANK YOU for expressing your intention for continued support of your wonderful game in the face of adversity!!!:o

[nattylux]

Yeah, the red/blue thing will obviously vary person to person. Red is actually my favorite color, so don't think that I'm part of some anti-red cabal :) This is where I got the original data:

http://www.createwithcontext.com/media/cwc-how-people-use-iphone.pdf

The most important thing that I think every developer should do with an icon:

- When you have a final icon version
- Photoshop it into the top 25, both on iTunes and on the phone
- Now be honest - does your icon pop? Is your eye attracted to it? Or do you just look over it? It's really important that your icon stand out and attract attention, because that's generally all you have to get users to click on it.

Anyway, just a little trick we've found helpful when figuring out if an icon is good enough.

Everything comes with the usual caveat that I don't really know what I'm talking about :)

@Rula Glad this is helpful. I actually just downloaded Hanto. Will need to peruse the rules a bit better. Love the music :) Good luck!

[Dark NRG]

Yeah, the red/blue thing will obviously vary person to person. Red is actually my favorite color, so don't think that I'm part of some anti-red cabal :) This is where I got the original data:

http://www.createwithcontext.com/media/cwc-how-people-use-iphone.pdf

The most important thing that I think every developer should do with an icon:

- When you have a final icon version
- Photoshop it into the top 25, both on iTunes and on the phone
- Now be honest - does your icon pop? Is your eye attracted to it? Or do you just look over it? It's really important that your icon stand out and attract attention, because that's generally all you have to get users to click on it.

Anyway, just a little trick we've found helpful when figuring out if an icon is good enough.

Everything comes with the usual caveat that I don't really know what I'm talking about :)

@Rula Glad this is helpful. I actually just downloaded Hanto. Will need to peruse the rules a bit better. Love the music :) Good luck!

I don't understand what you mean by "photo shop it into the top 25". What "exactly" is your little trick please, it's late and I must be just missin it:rolleyes:
As for icons that "pop", I feel nothing beats "I Dig It" icon

[pluto6]

I don't understand what you mean by "photo shop it into the top 25". What "exactly" is your little trick please, it's late and I must be just missin it:rolleyes:
As for icons that "pop", I feel nothing beats "I Dig It" icon

I think she means to get a screen copy of the top 25 apps then put your icon in there with all the other ones. Then you can see how it looks compared to the other top app icons. I could be wrong, but that is how I read it.

[nattylux]

Yes, that's what I mean. Take a screenshot of the top 25 and photoshop your proposed icon in there next to some of your favorite icons. See how it looks by comparison.

[DaveMc99]

Here are a few icons sorted by color
http://forums.toucharcade.com/picture.php?albumid=245&pictureid=1247

[Dark NRG]

Here are a few icons sorted by color
http://forums.toucharcade.com/picture.php?albumid=245&pictureid=1247

....waiting....waiting....waiting.... ;)

[Dark NRG]

A dev just threw together a list of 30 places to promote your app. You can find this comprehensive list here:
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?p=449718&posted=1#post449718

Nice Job!!!:)

[Rula]

@Rusa WHOOPS! I meant to say "DRAGONFLY" :p sorry. But yeah, I like what you wrote, and think that bubbles or diagram for quick references THAT CAN BE TURNED ON OR OFF IN THE PREFS for beginners would be nice.


Yeah, I thought you did. I am also sure you meant "Rula" instead of "Rusa" :D

BTW, English is not my native tongue either... :P and it is funny because "rusa" in Spanish means "russian girl" (which I am not...).

[Dark NRG]

Yeah, I thought you did. I am also sure you meant "Rula" instead of "Rusa" :D

BTW, English is not my native tongue either... :P and it is funny because "rusa" in Spanish means "russian girl" (which I am not...).

Well, I was born here in America, so I should know better. Sorry about that:o Your English is better than most my neighbors LOL

Did you see the links above Rula? For app promotion?

[Rula]

Did you see the links above Rula? For app promotion?

Yep. Thanks. ;)

[Dark NRG]

Here's an example from BoardGameGeek of a Hive fan's homebrew hex game tiles. Many fans do this and own the original Hive. No one b*@#%es about that, tho....

[Dark NRG]

Here's an example from BoardGameGeek of a Hive fan's homebrew hex game tiles. Many fans do this and own the original Hive. No one b*@#%es about that, tho....

<whoops>

[le'deuche123]

Great game dev!

I've been enjoying for Hanto for awhile now. The visuals are sharp, the audio is great, and the gameplay is very slick. Merge these three things with a very easy to use rules editor and you have definitely created a winrar, imo.

I agree with everyone else that your problem with pushing units has to do with the fact that the game is incredibly niche. I also believe that there's this perceived high entry level to Hanto; the rules are simple to pick up but from the outside they look very daunting. I think that this is especially true for people just browsing through the iTunes store looking for the next thing after Monopoly.

unfamiliar rules + new product name + original concept not exactly popular past obscure= a very hard sale.

I'm not sure what changes could be made to the game to make it more mainstream popular. You've already created something very professional, and I don't think that something easy like adding a million tile sets will increase your sales.

ps.

The ability to name player rule sets would be awesome..

pss.

I forgot to mention thx for the pass and play feature. It's getting left out of a lot of apps lately.

Hahaha....that's the nicest thing I've ever heard s0mah say:) You must be doing something right lol.

[drelbs]

Ya know, I've had the lite version on my iPod Touch for some time now, and I finally got to play it this afternoon.

It's amazing.

Insta-purchase for $0.99

That being said, I can see why this isn't flying off the shelves - I think from the screenshots it is somewhat difficult to tell what's going on.

You really need to advertise the Lite version on the main version's page.

Also: Lots of reading. 21 pages and you don't have rule diagrams for each piece!

The game could really use a tutorial where you move a few pieces around, then add a piece, etc. Also a help button that just shows you all the pieces and their moves.

If this is in the full version, my bad - I haven't played it yet. ;)

I would recommend this game to anyone who likes boardgames - there aren't enough solid boardgames on this platform.

Network play for 2-player games wouldn't be a bad addition either. Online achievements might be another carrot. (I hear there are people who buy games simply because they have OpenFeint integration...)

[Dark NRG]

Any word on updates, and what we can look forward to? :D

[Dark NRG]

What's wrong with Hanto???

Now that the official "Hive" app is out, apparently "nothing"! :cool:

Hanto still rules imo. Why they didn't polish that Hive app before releasing it, or selling it at a reasonable price, is beyond me, and other TA members it seems on the thread for Hive. Just ugly and pixelated.

Truly, Hanto is a masterpiece of work and passion, and Yanni missed the boat not agreeing to collaberate, again, my opinion.

[monk666]

Almost 2 weeks and not a single review for Hive. Man, a lot of new games are tanking bad...

[skyye06]

Almost 2 weeks and not a single review for Hive. Man, a lot of new games are tanking bad...

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=30355&highlight=hive

What are you talking about, hive just came out yesterday.

[Dark NRG]

Yeah, Skyy, i think Monk is refering to the date on the iTunes store when it was submitted, which can be misleading. I saw Hive go live. I'm still not droppin $5 on it yet, just due to aesthetics.

Also, not how stoneloops was dropped for stealing Luxor idea or something on the front page of TA just now. Interesting if this has consequenses for Harbor Master vs Flight Control and others.

[monk666]

Sry! My bad.

Maybe Hanto will be dropped by Apple if the Hive creator complains? It had happened before. Remember Tris? Now Stoneloops. Hanto's chances of getting dropped is pretty good. :(

[Dark NRG]

Sry! My bad.

Maybe Hanto will be dropped by Apple if the Hive creator complains? It had happened before. Remember Tris? Now Stoneloops. Hanto's chances of getting dropped is pretty good. :(

Well, there IS some water under that proverbial bridge there. The dev for Hanto did pull it himself for a bit this summer, then put it back up. Apple did nothing in regards to John Yanni's complaints, since it is "legal" to do that afterall. I just don't understand the issue with Stoneloops. I mean, look at Tetris and on and on.

[athan]

Maybe Hanto will be dropped by Apple if the Hive creator complains? It had happened before. Remember Tris? Now Stoneloops. Hanto's chances of getting dropped is pretty good. :(

I hope this will not happen. Hanto is one of the best board games in appstore and comparing the newly released "official" port with this makes me wonder why John Yanni refused to partner with Hanto's author and name it as the "official" Hive implementation. :confused:

[TomSchulz]

I hope this will not happen. Hanto is one of the best board games in appstore and comparing the newly released "official" port with this makes me wonder why John Yanni refused to partner with Hanto's author and name it as the "official" Hive implementation. :confused:

Hanto has been changed sufficiently so that it's not really Hive. Hanto is it's own thing.

The developer pulled it briefly from the store himself, and then rereleased it in it's current form. If you really love Hive you'll likely have .99 cents worth of fun with Hanto. We're not going to release things like modified rulesets or the Dragonfly, most likely, so those variants may be interesting to you.

Rather than spend energy arguing the fine points of intellectual property with people, we're busy beta testing 2 device 2 player and the Lotus 3D pieces. Translating our game into German, Dutch and French so our European fans can play in their native languages.