Apple just shot itself- and the devs too!

[cramzy]

Hi!

I just posted on my site:
http://cramzy.com/news.php

So, what do we devs do now? Go to Android?

- Iliya

[JoshCM]

Good points - the App store is acting nuts.
I just saw that it updated finally.
Seems like in order to make waves you'll have to release an entirely new game.
I've heard sales for Android apps are absolutely terrible though, with the top Devs only making $50 - $100 a day.
I don't think its time to switch yet... Top devs on iPhone are making thousands per day. Still quite a big difference. Maybe in a year things will be different.

[cramzy]

But how do you become a big dev on the iPhone? It takes luck or money. How many of us have these two? Not me!

[bravetarget]

i lol'd @ this thread.

First off, lots of devs claim that being on the release date list doesn't make a noticeable impact on their sales. I'm sure Apple thoroughly investigated that factor before making this move.

Secondly, it is not entirely up to Apple whether or not your app is successful. Here is how to boost your sales from a dev standpoint:

1. Make a good app.
2. Design your keywords perfectly.
3. Make a good app.
4. ???
5. Profit.

[JoshCM]

You are right - luck. 80% luck 10% marketing 10% talent

[cramzy]

i lol'd @ this thread.

First off, lots of devs claim that being on the release date list doesn't make a noticeable impact on their sales. I'm sure Apple thoroughly investigated that factor before making this move.

Secondly, it is not entirely up to Apple whether or not your app is successful. Here is how to boost your sales from a dev standpoint:

1. Make a good app.
2. Design your keywords perfectly.
3. Make a good app.
4. ???
5. Profit.

How many apps do you have? How much do you earn?

Make a good app- of course! We have the best jokes app ever made (seriously!). It sells well but if it does not appear on the recently released list once a month it drops in sales. And it's still the best jokes app ever made. It has great rating for the last few updates, so it's sure people love it.

Keywords? 100 000 apps and 100 characters keywords limit? Seriously?

[Sinecure Industries]

I see this as a good thing, a lot of developers are coming out with tiny updates just to knock themselves to the front of the release list. Now actual NEW things will be featured. If you come out with an update to your app, especially a huge one, there are other ways of people finding out

[cramzy]

... If you come out with an update to your app, especially a huge one, there are other ways of people finding out

For example?

[Sinecure Industries]

How many apps do you have? How much do you earn?

Make a good app- of course! We have the best jokes app ever made (seriously!). It sells well but if it does not appear on the recently released list once a month it drops in sales. And it's still the best jokes app ever made. It has great rating for the last few updates, so it's sure people love it.

Keywords? 100 000 apps and 100 characters keywords limit? Seriously?

If your keywords are good and your sales are as decent as you say, you should come up in the first few results when people search for "jokes" regardless of when you released

[bravetarget]

How many apps do you have? How much do you earn?

Make a good app- of course! We have the best jokes app ever made (seriously!). It sells well but if it does not appear on the recently released list once a month it drops in sales. And it's still the best jokes app ever made. It has great rating for the last few updates, so it's sure people love it.

Keywords? 100 000 apps and 100 characters keywords limit? Seriously?

The part where I said, "Make a good app" does not mean make the millionth joke app with default interface elements.

[Sinecure Industries]

For example?

Press releases, twitter updates, website updates, facebook fan updates. If you aren't building your brand and you're relying entirely on being at the front of the release list all the time you're doing it wrong

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 18,000 Jokes now has 18,001 Jokes in latest update!

blah blah blah

link
link
link

$$$

[xenoclone]

I actually like this move. There are far more apps abusing the update-and-stay-atop feature than there are developers getting benefits. It stings a little bit when you put in a good update, but you're also not having the top of that list flooded with "A Crocodile Dentist" updates.

[lukeca]

If apple wants to decrease the amount of new apps showing up each day this isn't going to work in my opinion. You will now get devs spamming the store with new apps instead of updating their existing apps. The devs that release updates with little or no changes will continue to find a way to exploit the new release exposure.

If they are trying to get more new apps on the store this will accomplish that.

[cramzy]

Dude, search is not that popular actually. People just want to be told what to see, not to think and search for something (for the better part of the time). People just hit the "Recently released" list, browse there, buy stuff and that's it...it's so rare that they think of a specific app to search for. But when you see "hmm, a new jokes app...cool. let me try it.." this is what leads to sales! Not "hmm, i think i want a jokes app right now, lets find one".
I say this with quite a lot of experience on this platform!

[Sinecure Industries]

The part where I said, "Make a good app" does not mean make the millionth joke app with default interface elements.

I dunno, compiling web results is way easier than writing actual content. Hang on, let me find a latin quote for this...

[drelbs]

http://rijandmeg.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/bullet-apple.jpg
http://gadgetcrunch.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/ipod-bullet.jpg (http://www.gadgetcrunch.net/2007/04/06/ipod-stops-bullet-saves-soldiers-life-in-iraq/)

[lukeca]

Ok totally off topic, but weird an iPod with an hp logo? What's up with that?

[drelbs]

Ok totally off topic, but weird an iPod with an hp logo? What's up with that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod%2BHP

[Flickitty]

We didn't see any change in downloads by appearing under New Apps, after trying so hard to get there on the 2nd attempt (we didn't understand how the release dates worked).

If you want to make any money at Android, I would suggest going now, BEFORE the market pops. At this point, even really crappy games can make money because there isn't any major competition and it is still a novelty (remember iPhones Fart App?).

[Foozelz]

http://rijandmeg.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/bullet-apple.jpg
http://gadgetcrunch.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/ipod-bullet.jpg (http://www.gadgetcrunch.net/2007/04/06/ipod-stops-bullet-saves-soldiers-life-in-iraq/)

Why is that iPod have an HP brand on it? IT AINT LEGIT IS IT?

[NickFalk]

Why is that iPod have an HP brand on it? IT AINT LEGIT IS IT?
Yup Apple and HP did for a while have an agreement where HP were allowed to sell iPod's with the HP-logo...

[cramzy]

Guys stop posting off topic stuff.

[NickFalk]

Back on topic: I think the change is a good one. The "upgrade often to get attention"-game was never particularly user-friendly. With the exception of Pocket God it seems to me a lot of developers have been making tiny, almost pointless, upgrades every other week to get their apps back up on the recent-lists.

Frankly, it seems to me that the former practice rewarded the developers for not finishing their apps before releasing them to the app store...

[MindJuice]

1. Make a good app.
2. Design your keywords perfectly.
3. Make a good app.
4. ???
5. Profit.

I'm not convinced that keywords offer any real benefit in the App Store unless you are selling flashlight apps or other utility apps that people are likely to look for by category. The only time I ever "search" for a game is when I already know the name of the game I want.

I asked other iPhone users about it here at work, and they never search by keywords either. They exclusively browse through the top lists.

I think people already know what they are looking for or simply scroll through the top lists. That is probably 90% or more of the sales (yeah, I pulled that number out of thin air :), but it is based on empirical evidence).

[Flickitty]

I think people already know what they are looking for or simply scroll through the top lists. That is probably 90% or more of the sales (yeah, I pulled that number out of thin air :), but it is based on empirical evidence).

That's okay, 87.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

I don't think I've ever looked for a game under a keyword either.

Our first time submitting was declined because we use 'demo' as a keyword. That was the ONLY problem- we made that minor change and had to go through the entire process again. It was approved a week later.

There are circumstances that might suggest some games use 'demo' as a keyword. While demolition and demon are valid, there are others that aren't.

[cramzy]

In my experience a huge amount of sales come not from the top lists in a specific category but the recently released lists in the category, in case the app stays for at least a day.

[ravenvii]

Why is that iPod have an HP brand on it? IT AINT LEGIT IS IT?

Yes it is. Apple and HP partnered to sell iPods in Radio Shack a long time ago.

That partnership was short-lived, however.

[Flickitty]

I would suppose that would depend on what a 'huge amount' would be.

If you normally have 10 downloads a day, and 'New Apps' brings you another 10 a day, you just doubled your sales. On the other hand, if you have hundreds a day, that 10 new downloads isn't enough data to be conclusive.

This is why I stated that other devs may have a different story.

It would be nice if being new brought us thousands of new downloads, but it didn't.

[cramzy]

If I had 10 downloads a day, I would not quit my day job for this platform, and I would not be pissed off that much.
But I have about 400-500 sales per day for two of our apps, and when they get updated sales increase to 800 and more.

[NickFalk]

In many ways I think the new system is probably fairer. Those who spend time making their app as good as it can be, perfecting every aspect of it, will no longer have to compete with the latest 0.0001 upgrade of every possible app out there...

[Flickitty]

If I had 10 downloads a day, I would not quit my day job for this platform, and I would not be pissed off that much.
But I have about 400-500 sales per day for two of our apps, and when they get updated sales increase to 800 and more.

Okay, I don't know your situation. And for the THIRD time, I am saying what my situation is and that it MAY NOT APPLY to other developers.

Your situation doesn't apply to me, but I am not prepared to dismiss it.

[cramzy]

Okay, I don't know your situation. And for the THIRD time, I am saying what my situation is and that it MAY NOT APPLY to other developers.

Your situation doesn't apply to me, but I am not prepared to dismiss it.

You are right, it could be different with different apps. But still- this visibility provided good increase of sales for most people...they wouldn't be making so many updates if it didn't, right?

[bomber]

There are worse things, like Apple removed three of your apps from sale because a user complained about a bad profile picture.
..

About update visibility: one year ago it really was motivating to update the game, because an update was bringing almost the same amount of income as a new release. This effect has decreased a lot because there were tons of new apps and spam in the App Store. For Cocoto Kart we didn't relie on it at all, released one day after the approval and contacted websites etc. to get some push.

[Flickitty]

You are right, it could be different with different apps. But still- this visibility provided good increase of sales for most people...they wouldn't be making so many updates if it didn't, right?

No, you wouldn't. And believe me, I feel badly for you and the other developers that will no doubt feel the repurcussions of this.

At this point, I still don't know how it will affect me. I'm new enough that I don't think my opinion should count as much.

However, do keep in mind that updates will provide you with new Promo Codes that you can use to generate news and interest.

[ChaoticBox]

But I have about 400-500 sales per day for two of our apps...
You're selling 400+ apps a day? My advice: Stop complaining.

[JoshCM]

holy crap 400-500 a day? you just made everyone else here jealous...
besides I heard android app sales are terrible.

[Dylan1696]

Back on topic: I think the change is a good one. The "upgrade often to get attention"-game was never particularly user-friendly. With the exception of Pocket God it seems to me a lot of developers have been making tiny, almost pointless, upgrades every other week to get their apps back up on the recent-lists.

Frankly, it seems to me that the former practice rewarded the developers for not finishing their apps before releasing them to the app store...

I fully agree with your views on this!

[sumiguchi]

Well I haven't done an update for a few months but when I did - it had a noticeable boost in my sales of Anomaly. That said - it still wasn't enough to make all the effort to do it worthwhile. Sadly - the game was well received but the only sales we had were first day, first day on update and then for about 2 weeks when Apple featured us as one of the "Best Dual Stick Shooters".

On the other hand - I agree that lots of people abused the updates to get more exposure and I wondered how Apple was going to keep up. I'm sure they are doing this to reduce the amount of reviewing they are doing - but hope they have measures to insure devs don't release the same stuff under a new name to "get around" this.

I do like that this will push developers to finish games before releasing them!

[mobile1up]

I actually like this move. There are far more apps abusing the update-and-stay-atop feature than there are developers getting benefits. It stings a little bit when you put in a good update, but you're also not having the top of that list flooded with "A Crocodile Dentist" updates.

i second this - its an excellent move! if you want to make your updates more public; you'll get a site to review your app. people want to find new applications; not go through a list of old apps being updated. as an itunes user; you get updates without checking.. so; why do they need to be in the main lists?

[mobile1up]

If I had 10 downloads a day, I would not quit my day job for this platform, and I would not be pissed off that much.
But I have about 400-500 sales per day for two of our apps, and when they get updated sales increase to 800 and more.

400+ per day? and your complaining? go ahead and target the other platforms; you'll be lucky to get 10 sales a day on platforms like symbian, android et al - and, if you look closely; the distributors dont take 30%; they take more like 70% (www.handango.com, www.pocketgear.com).. what apple is doing no-one should complain about; they provide a market place great for indie devs to get involved and actually cover (if lucky) the cost of their developments

[MindJuice]

I think if an app does add significant new features, then it deserves to be featured in some way. But just a bug fix release shouldn't get featured.

Maybe they'll add a recently updated list, though that might make even less of a bump in sales.

[Acidbottle]

just because something is good does not mean it has a divine right to be sucessful. remember betamax vs VHS? ;)

stand out titles do sell well but because this market is now saturated and competitive, some of the more niche titles go unrecognised. dont loose heart, build another game/app but dont go into this business with the sole aim of making a mint of cash. much like musicians, it often takes many years of consistant work for it to pay off. instant successes, no matter how good your product is, are quite rare.

[MikeSz_spokko]

just curious - was there any official statement on it ? I mean - this thread was started by a link to a post written by someone who claims that he contacted apple. ok, maybe that's true, I'm not saying it is not. but I would just really like to see something official about it... is there anything like that ?

---

assuming it is true:

our experience with every game and every update - they give a temporary 50-100% boost to sales. after 2-3 days things are back to normal. so yeah, strategy works but doesn't really pay off in a long term. if a game doesn't earn much - updates are not gonna earn much either... so better to invest in new games

---

what I would much much rather see is a "pay-to-submit" scheme, 20-50$ for each update and 90% of appspam would be gone (yes, this number is completely made up)

[lukeca]

Now you get to compete with all those devs releasing those 0.0001 as version 1.0 of "Crappy App 2", and then "Crappy App 3". Just so they can continue getting on the New Release list.

In many ways I think the new system is probably fairer. Those who spend time making their app as good as it can be, perfecting every aspect of it, will no longer have to compete with the latest 0.0001 upgrade of every possible app out there...

[Dylan1696]

what I would much much rather see is a "pay-to-submit" scheme, 20-50$ for each update and 90% of appspam would be gone (yes, this number is completely made up)

Good call!
Didn't even think about that one. That would be good. It might also make dev's work a little harder to fix all the little bugs(ones that come up fixed in many little future updates) and other, before ever submitting the game in the first place. I would feel better about my product if I know it is going out near 100% instead of 75% with bug fixes coming soon. If I frustrate my customers with the latter, they'll just run away from my product, delete it, and give it a crappy rating. = no more $ :(

Dev's should have good communication with testers and actually use their feedback to help their product before it sees the light of day in the store.

Just sayi'n. But opinions are like a-holes....... ya know?

[MindJuice]

just curious - was there any official statement on it ? I mean - this thread was started by a link to a post written by someone who claims that he contacted apple. ok, maybe that's true, I'm not saying it is not. but I would just really like to see something official about it... is there anything like that ?

I was just thinking the same thing. It would be good to have an official announcement from Apple on this topic.

Having said that, something is clearly up with the App Store and its behavior the past 2 days. I was hoping for something better than this though.

Time will tell.

[NickFalk]

Now you get to compete with all those devs releasing those 0.0001 as version 1.0 of "Crappy App 2", and then "Crappy App 3". Just so they can continue getting on the New Release list.
Nope, competing with those already. I think Apple made the right call on this one, but as always it would have been much better if they informed everyone in advance...

[Flickitty]

if you look closely; the distributors dont take 30%; they take more like 70% (www.handango.com, www.pocketgear.com)

70%? WTF?

I remember when we release Snails on Pocket Pc (now Windows Mobile) back in 2002 and they TRIED to get 30% but we told them to screw off. We were considered a 'Gold Member' dev, and I think Handango settled for 10% or 15%.

Our first day sales for Snails was something like 400 (or maybe that was the whole month?), and that was considered huge back then.

[wootbean]

my physics teacher saw me using my iPT a while back and got one himself, and since then he's loved it and all the apps he's gotten...my research project involved making an iPhone application, he sees me working on it and starts talking about how how much money people make off of apps...I couldn't think of a way to tell him no way

[dogmeat]

maybe you should QA your games to begin with so you don't need to update them.

this is a bunch of bullshit, you speak for 1% of the customers on the store.

[bravetarget]

Has it always showed Updated and Release dates?

Because it is now.

[mobile1up]

70%? WTF?

I remember when we release Snails on Pocket Pc (now Windows Mobile) back in 2002 and they TRIED to get 30% but we told them to screw off. We were considered a 'Gold Member' dev, and I think Handango settled for 10% or 15%.

Our first day sales for Snails was something like 400 (or maybe that was the whole month?), and that was considered huge back then.

http://www.mobilephonedevelopment.com/archives/557 - 40%
http://forum.brighthand.com/showthread.php?p=1260461 - 50%
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/3801.html - 60%

2002 - those were the early days. times have changed :)

you could get 70% if you wanted to sell through their "additional channels - such as palm store and more specifically carriers".. did they deserve to get more than 20%? hell no. users had to learn about their site and visit them - it wasn't an in-device thing.

on palm os - there was a built in application for buying applications; they requested 75% - i forgot the name; but it was extortion. its why most developed on palm os and pocket pc started hosting their own payment gateways using sites like esellerate.net

[cramzy]

Whether I should complain or not is frankly my very own business.
If your ambitions stop at 30 sales per day, mine don't. So stop complaining about me complaining.
And let me ask- how many of you "stop complaining guys" have actually quit your day jobs and all your income comes from the iPhone? Ah?

[JonathanJ]

i second this - its an excellent move! if you want to make your updates more public; you'll get a site to review your app.

This is easier said than done. Of the 40 or so codes I've sent out, 2 have resulted in (very positive) reviews. Most sites don't even bother replying to say they won't use the code.

[dogmeat]

Whether I should complain or not is frankly my very own business.
If your ambitions stop at 30 sales per day, mine don't. So stop complaining about me complaining.
And let me ask- how many of you "stop complaining guys" have actually quit your day jobs and all your income comes from the iPhone? Ah?

don't let your head get too big now Mr. I'm so special.

[cramzy]

Frankly, reading most of the comments I see that most people in this discussion are not actually experienced developers...

Having your app reviewed by someone? Really? Have you tried? Have you measured the impact? Because I have...and I've paid. And I've paid thousands of dollars for this. And the impact is still much less significant than just appearing on the list of recently released apps.

Seriously guys, if you are not devs, just don't bother hitting the reply button on this thread. It really adds no value. Only volume.

[mobile1up]

Whether I should complain or not is frankly my very own business. If your ambitions stop at 30 sales per day, mine don't. So stop complaining about me complaining. And let me ask- how many of you "stop complaining guys" have actually quit your day jobs and all your income comes from the iPhone? Ah?

i thought i'd bite the bullet and see your applications - i'm surprised people are buying 400+ a day; especially for applications that can be implemented with less than a few days work. you can easily grab a bit of public information and wrap it around a UIWebView and sell it for a few bucks.

i wonder if you actually own the rights to the material that you publish in your applications.. did you license them? or just rip them from the internet? i would be more worried about being contacted by the people who own the content and prepare a cease and desist for you - i wouldn't have quit my day job for this type of business. lets see:

http://www.cramzy.com/CruelInsults/
http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/insult.html

looks like you've either ripped content from "corsinet.com" for your application.. thats plagiarism (of course; unless you can proove that you own or licensed the content). if it works for you - good on you. i guess you want to ride on being in the "top lists" by publishing new content/updates to your applications.

[Flickitty]

I think Cramzy has a right to complain. It can be a pain in the ass to find something that works- time, effort, money and frustration. When this gets jacked up, you have to start all over again. In the meantime, you lose sales.

iPhone developer is my only job. At this point I am able to pay my bills.

I think cramzy's and my situation is very different from other people. When our source of income is toyed with, we need to take action immediately. It might be a rare occasion for most of you to come into work and be notified 'Oh, BTW, your salary has been cut down to 25% from yesterday'.

I'm not as affected by this as cramzy (yet), and I would hate to be where he is right now. Even if nobody else in this thread sympathizes, I do.

[cramzy]

i thought i'd bite the bullet and see your applications - i'm surprised people are buying 400+ a day; especially for applications that can be implemented with less than a few days work. you can easily grab a bit of public information and wrap it around a UIWebView and sell it for a few bucks.

i wonder if you actually own the rights to the material that you publish in your applications.. did you license them? or just rip them from the internet? i would be more worried about being contacted by the people who own the content and prepare a cease and desist for you - i wouldn't have quit my day job for this type of business.

if it works for you - good on you. i guess you want to ride on being in the "top lists" by publishing new content/updates to your applications.

I do own every bit of information. I've paid for it. And you are very mistaken to believe the apps are that simple. Some of them indeed are simple, but some of them like 18,000 COOL JOKES and Chippy are frankly- freaking advanced. You've no idea how advanced algos we have behind the jokes app.
If you want a promo code, drop me a PM...maybe you should give our apps a try, and see they are good and polished.

And can somebody explain to me, what did I do to deserve this attitude? The way I see it I am an average guy working on the iPhone market, currently making good money out of it. I quit my day job less than a month ago, and now I plan to support my wife and upcoming baby (in 7 months) with the money I earn from the AppStore. Do you think it's weird to be frustrated and angry when Apple shows zero respect to us, the developers, and potentially harms my business?
And what's wrong with making 500 sales a day? What's wrong with wanting more? Everybody wants more...just some people pretend to be saints and say "enough is enough"...no man, it's never enough... I'd rather buy a house and a sports car and still have money left, than living on rental and saying "okay, things have to be fair, so I should not earn too much".

So, please, stop blaming me for taking care of my family and business. And stop saying the apps sux...if you don't like what the app is about- okay, you have every right for this. But don't say I stole the content, because I haven't, and don't say the apps themselves suck, because they don't. We put a great deal of effort in creating them, and the people who've used them do see and appreciate this.

[mobile1up]

Do you think it's weird to be frustrated and angry when Apple shows zero respect to us, the developers, and potentially harms my business?

apple can do whatever they want - and, trust me - i've been in the mobile business for over 11 years now; what they have provided is one of the best market places that mobile developers have ever seen. they take 30% now; we are all just waiting for that to go up.

So, please, stop blaming me for taking care of my family and business. ... We put a great deal of effort in creating them, and the people who've used them do see and appreciate this.

no-one said they suck. but remember this is the internet - you get flamed and bullied for just existing. i hope the business stays well - and you are able to provide for your family. but remember you are a single pawn in a massive chess game that apple controls the fate of.

the indie dev's used to thrive on other platforms; such as palm os, windows mobile - and the big guys like EA, gameloft came in. they got all the exclusive and special treatment; leaving the indie developer in the cold. it's only going to get worse for developers on the platform - you can depend on it.

[cramzy]

it's only going to get worse for developers on the platform - you can depend on it..

Why do you think so? Not that I oppose you... I am just curious and to be frank- a little scared :eek:
I am curious- what else do you expect from Apple?

[mobile1up]

I'm not as affected by this as cramzy (yet), and I would hate to be where he is right now. Even if nobody else in this thread sympathizes, I do.

that's because your featured :) your one of the lucky ones.

a lot of developers are selling very low sales volumes; like 1-2 sales per day; and i guess they are upset when they see someone complain when they have 400+ per day. its only human nature; we all want a level playing field. if your featured or have a spot in the top lists; you'll sell very well. when you start slipping; you'll feel it.

i personally do iPhone / iPod Touch development as a hobby - i put a few hours a week into it (when i'm not busy with my real job) - as i've been doing for over 11 years on almost every mobile platform. i've seen the patterns platforms go through; so far Apple has been very forgiving and provided a rich environment for application distribution. it wont be long before they get greedy and turn on the very people who make them successful in the beginning..

[xenoclone]

Well I agree with cramzy that nobody should just "be satisfied" with some level of sales. Everyone has the right and should have the desire to make as much as they can as quickly as they can. So I can certainly see why he'd be upset if an Apple policy change adversely impacted his sales.

On the flip side, for every updated app that doesn't show up in the new releases, there's a new app to fill its spot. So I don't think the net benefit, across the spectrum of developers, would go down. I think it would go up.

[mobile1up]

Why do you think so? Not that I oppose you... I am just curious and to be frank- a little scared :eek:
I am curious- what else do you expect from Apple?

a few items:

- increased commission

i've seen this happen on every platform before; it starts low; then they slowly increase it over time - opening both standard and premium accounts. in another thread; it was mentioned its hard to children to get credit cards - so, maybe apple will partner with carriers and do other payment methods (reverse billing SMS).. the carriers will want a cut; and that's typically 50%.

- separation between big developers and indie developers

the "hot spots" will be exclusively used by big developers (EA, gameloft) - either they'll charge for banner space and price it so high that indie developers wont stand a chance to even consider paying for it as an option.

- special treatment

as an extension to the above item; big players will get shorter review times; and the indie dev will have to constantly nag for status updates.. i am sure this is already happening.

... the list could go on - if you want to see what can happen; simply look at the other platforms - specifically palm os and windows mobile.

[cramzy]

Hey let me share about our "success"...though I was tempted to put the word "temporary" before the word success...Anyways...

In Feb this year, we started working on Ananga Ranga. We put money out of our pockets to pay a 3D artist and a developer. Apple rejected it.
After that, 4 people worked on Chippy... it makes 3-4 sales a day.
But we never quit trying...we made 18,000 COOL JOKES and it just hit it...it was not success from the first time, but we put about 1100$ into advertising and I put huge effort into making it popular. With a few updates it started selling well. And so on we continued doing small apps... but this is not the point. The point is that we were never featured...we had 2 apps in the beginning that did not pay off, but kept trying... so it's just work work work work and hard work + some luck.

And not only that we were never featured by Apple, but one of the popular reviews site proposed us a deal- pay for adds or get a bad review...and we got a bad review. So all I wanted to say is that making these sales is no easy...keeping them is even harder. You can imagine working 9 hours a day on your day job (as I am still there! I quit but it's effective from 1-Dec), traveling 2.5 hours, and when you get back home, you start working on iPhone stuff for the bigger part of the night...and this has been going on for months.

So, it's not easy! Trust me!

[cramzy]

a few items:

- increased commission

i've seen this happen on every platform before; it starts low; then they slowly increase it over time - opening both standard and premium accounts. in another thread; it was mentioned its hard to children to get credit cards - so, maybe apple will partner with carriers and do other payment methods (reverse billing SMS).. the carriers will want a cut; and that's typically 50%.

- separation between big developers and indie developers

the "hot spots" will be exclusively used by big developers (EA, gameloft) - either they'll charge for banner space and price it so high that indie developers wont stand a chance to even consider paying for it as an option.

- special treatment

as an extension to the above item; big players will get shorter review times; and the indie dev will have to constantly nag for status updates.. i am sure this is already happening.

... the list could go on - if you want to see what can happen; simply look at the other platforms - specifically palm os and windows mobile.


This sounds like Tarantino movie. I honestly hope you are wrong about the commission...and for the rest- it's already happening.

[mobile1up]

we made 18,000 COOL JOKES and it just hit it...it was not success from the first time, but we put about 1100$ into advertising and I put huge effort into making it popular. With a few updates it started selling well.

it's just like why:

- fart apps
- mirror apps
- ... other useless apps

are a success. you could have the best application and no-one knows about it. the novalty stuff really gets the short term sales and boost - its sad, but true. how many useless apps exist? how many of them took only hours to program? its not fair, but its the way it is.

to succeed in the app store you need to do something original - and get noticed. if your doing apps that everyone else is doing; no one is going to write reviews or give you any form of press coverage. thats part of the challenge. branded content always does well - especially if you have the license rights. its been that way for many years.

[mobile1up]

This sounds like Tarantino movie. I honestly hope you are wrong about the commission...and for the rest- it's already happening.

at least your in bulgaria :) its cheaper to live there.. earning $300-400 a day is an excellent living.. especially when you can get paid while sleeping. i know a lot of small developers / outfits who had to pay artists, developers just to get something on the app store - and they are thousands of dollars in debt..i know someone who has sold 12 copies of their game in 3 months.. how sad is that?

Mobile 1UP has been in the app store for just over a year; we've had our trouble with Nintendo and we've seen something huge turn into something crap. now of course; we are still profitable, since we have no costs - and we are working on new original content (some licensed) to try and make it big too. maybe one day where i can also quit my day job :)

[cramzy]

it's just like why:

- fart apps
- mirror apps
- ... other useless apps

are a success. you could have the best application and no-one knows about it. the novalty stuff really gets the short term sales and boost - its sad, but true. how many useless apps exist? how many of them took only hours to program? its not fair, but its the way it is.

to succeed in the app store you need to do something original - and get noticed. if your doing apps that everyone else is doing; no one is going to write reviews or give you any form of press coverage. thats part of the challenge. branded content always does well - especially if you have the license rights. its been that way for many years.

I totally agree with you. And I understand why people take the wrong conclusion about our apps, as they are content based. But I assure you that we buy the databases 100% legit, and we pay well for this. And for most apps- it doesn't pay back...but you never know.

Just one point I wanted to make about the jokes app: it really is a very advanced app. We wanted to create the perfect jokes app, and I am very confident we succeeded.

P.S. It's 2 AM midnight here, and I have not slept more than 3 hours a night for almost a week now, so I will be hitting off to bed... will reply to you guys tomorrow.

[Flickitty]

but one of the popular reviews site proposed us a deal- pay for adds or get a bad review...and we got a bad review.

WHAT?

We have maybe 6 reviews out there. 4 of them came from this site:

Zaz (French Translation) (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livegeek.fr%2Ftest%2F 131752%2FFlickitty.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Sic (http://thecurrentgamer.com/?p=770)

enuhski (http://enuhskigamesiphone.blogspot.com/2009/11/flickitty-for-iphone-and-ipod-touch.html)

TouchArcade Podcast #3 (http://toucharcade.com/2009/11/02/toucharcade-podcast-3-you-know-you-like-pocket-god/)

The remaining 2 came from other sources:

Keri Honea, examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/x-20229-Dallas-iPhone-Games-Examiner~y2009m11d2-Flickitty-review)

Jason Surguine, jaybot7.com (http://su.pr/AStkGs)

These are the news and reviews that we have at this time. I won't agree to paying ANYONE for a review. TouchArcade has never provided us with news or a written review. We do not have a user review within this site either.

PocketGamer.co.uk has never provided us with news nor a review either. If ads are the only way to get a review, then sorry, I am not playing that game. I'll pay for an ad voluntarily if the site (like this one) provides me with a service like this great forum. pocketgamer.co.uk doesn't provide anything to me.

Furthermore, I am very careful where I send my Promo Codes. I know exactly who has what code, and I do not send them blindly unless the site responds and tells me they are interested. Keri Honea was such a gal to repond promptly.

[lukeca]

Ok so I still don't understand what is happening with the new release list, I have a card game app so I watch that category pretty closely.

Check this app out, it says it was released today, it's showing up in the new releases, it is version 1.0, but it already has a good amount of reviews and they date back to 2008, so what the heck is going on?

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/reel-deal-blackjack/id284072128?mt=8

[DaveMc99]

Check this app out, it says it was released today, it's showing up in the new releases, it is version 1.0, but it already has a good amount of reviews and they date back to 2008, so what the heck is going on?

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/reel-deal-blackjack/id284072128?mt=8

It was released in 2008 http://www.apptism.com/apps/reel-deal-blackjack

[EssentialParadox]

When I first discovered updates to an app pushed it into the 'new releases' list, I thought it was strange practice and possibly even an error on Apple's part. I also thought it was unfair to those genuinely brand new applications that are being buried under old apps that have already had their limelight.

This change will mean that when you release a new app, it will have more exposure in the 'new releases' list, plus it will last in that list much longer now. For all the apps in the 'new releases' list, I would guesstimate 90% of them were just updates to existing apps.

As for moving to Android store, I'd be surprised if they don't already have it this way themselves - if they don't, they will eventually. It's just a lot more normal this way.

[eJayStudios]

Hmm, interesting and scary news if all is true.

I was planning initially to release my game with multiplayer support on same device only (it's a turned based game) and later on add wi-fi and bluetooth support if there is enough interest (maybe even client/server).

My game is a turned based racing simulator and I've no idea how many people will like it (need to use brains to play :). So idea was to make it polished as much as I can, but add bigger features like true multiplayer with updates.

But with this move from Apple I'm not so sure anymore what to do. If I will add multiplayer support later, how would new buyers know about it?

I understand you can advertise on forums, facebook and whats not, but nothing compares to Apple own just released list. That's how I find new app myself everyday and believe most of users do the same.

[lukeca]

That's what I'm saying, why is it showing with a release date of today and appearing in the new releases, it makes no sense.

It was released in 2008 http://www.apptism.com/apps/reel-deal-blackjack

[ethanwa]

And maybe I'm the exception, but I almost never look at the lists in the app shop, I rely on sites like this one and word of mouth for what's new and worthwhile. I think dev's place too much importance on where they're at in the app store, and forget about other ways of getting their product out.

Numbers speak louder than words. That is why devs care. They know that getting a bump on the store makes them cash.

I should know. I'm a developer.

But I actually agree with this new change.

Ethan

[debtOFskittles]

Personally, I don't like the move because it removes one of the big incentives for updating your app.. some devs release and app and forget about it, and little problems and annoyances hang around forever.

And think about it... if you turned away from buying an app at one point because it had low ratings due to a bug, you would never really rediscover it, even if the dev worked his ass off to fix what people didn't like. They need to have a very good return for doing the work they do that keeps touch arcade around.

[cramzy]

Good morning everyone.
You know how people say things look better in the morning? Yeah...they don't! I am still pissed at Apple.

So, my personal opinion is that Apple doesn't give a sh*t about us, and all they want is to support the big devs who don't really need all that support.

[schplurg]

I see this as a good thing, a lot of developers are coming out with tiny updates just to knock themselves to the front of the release list. Now actual NEW things will be featured. If you come out with an update to your app, especially a huge one, there are other ways of people finding out

I agree. Unfortunately the appstore is flooded with crap. Get your game right the first time.

The update system has been abused by many devs and THAT is why Apple was forced to make this move. You can thank yourselves for this.

[arn]

one potential side effect, btw...

mentioned by nattylux... is that if the # of "frivolous" updates do drop off due to this system, then the approval queue should be shortened.

arn

[Syndicated Puzzles]

I figured it out! Xmas is coming! I had plans to create updates to fall in and around Xmas for all my games. I think the appstore had no choice but to pull the plug on updates being listed (featured) It would have been physically impossible to process all the Xmas updates..... THEY HAD NO CHOICE>>>> THIS IS A RESULT OF OUR BEHAVIOUR AS GREEDY HUMANS!!!!! Give us a loop hole we will use it! 100 000 Apps all mysteriously need to be updated right before Xmas = the plug being pulled.

[NickFalk]

As I mentioned earlier I think the decision on Apple's part was a good one. I can see why Cramzy finds it frustrating but the former practice was obviously flawed.

Where Apple did go wrong though was where they often fail: The complete lack of communication. As a lot of developers have put their efforts and money into a release-schedule taking advantage of the update == visibility, Apple should simply have informed everyone that from a certain date, only new releases would be included among the new releases. Makes sense when you think of it doesn't it? ;)

On the other side, Insulting Monk (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/insulting-monk/id334214237?mt=8) was released yesterday, but doesn't show up when sorting on release date in the entertainment section at all...

[ChaoticBox]

And let me ask- how many of you "stop complaining guys" have actually quit your day jobs and all your income comes from the iPhone? Ah?
I didn't have a day job so that's besides the point - maybe "stop complaining" was a little harsh, but your blog post reads like a tantrum. You should at least be thankful and a little more gracious towards Apple, who've apparently provided a way for you to quit your day job...

Personally I think this change (fix) is long overdue. The number of illegitimate "updates" has been ridiculous since the early days and I'm sure this was (is) a huge strain on the approval process. Now all Apple has to do is clamp down on app-spammers, enforce proper categorization, spread out release dates, stop listing releases alphabetically, fix the horrible laggy data caching, add more pages to the top lists -- but one step at a time.

[flod]

In my specific case – 5-6 sales/week in the good ol' days :), – jumping to the top of the category list after the effort put into every update was a nice reward – more exposure, sales were "jumping" to an astonishing ~20/week.
So, yeah, it sounds like a bad thing.

Still, certain categories are so polluted by releases of "SomeGame XXX Respect/Magic/Honor/Wotnot Points" every other day, that you didn't stand a chance. These guys release at once up to 10 instances of the same game, so when this happens for 2-3 such games in a row, good luck with anyone spotting *your* little game.
No offense to the devs of these types of apps (they're just not my type, although they seem popular), but for this reason I think it's for the best.

[rdklein]

I think this will lead to a new catastrophe.
Instead of updating some will start with new releases. Also instead of adding in app purchases for new features new versions make more sense as they become visible to the users the addins "only" to old customers. (or they do both)
--
So the number of apps will increase quickly.
--


by the way I started with android meanwhile and what a difference it took me 5 MINUTES to bring my app in sale worldwide !! and was availble -- only SALES are bad bad bad.

[don_k]

I didn't have a day job so that's besides the point - maybe "stop complaining" was a little harsh, but your blog post reads like a tantrum. You should at least be thankful and a little more gracious towards Apple, who've apparently provided a way for you to quit your day job...

+1
Just because it's bad for him doesn't mean it's bad for everybody else. At the very least it's better for Apple and customers. I don't like how some devs make up a tiny update just to get visibility.

[TrueAxis]

I think the crux of the problem is that most apps are pretty poor - this loop hole was a way for desperate developers to get more exposure.

I think a lot of people entered app development with the thought of the big cash cow and created an app as quick as possible, then on release realized this dream was never going to happen, and would do anything to gain more exposure. All in all I think this is a pretty good move by Apple as the new releases will gain more exposure... And out of the new release, the ones that are good will reach the charts. This is a very fair system.

What does this mean for the devs? Before you consider your next app, be smart, find a unique product and put a lot of effort in. Why release 5 products that will sink, when 1 good product executed well but takes a little longer to make? Doing this will bring in all the rewards.

[Mastersoft]

On balance it is a good call. The review process appeared to be grinding to a halt so this should crank things up a bit. Also brand new apps deserve a lot more emphasis than updated ones, unless of course it's a major release update.

[FlagellumDei]

Apple should create a new category: Updated Apps. So, everyone would be happy.

[Mastersoft]

Apple should create a new category: Updated Apps. So, everyone would be happy.
That would be perfect.

[rdklein]

yes good idea, why not all devs here write a ticket to app as feature request ? or in the connect...
perfect though it wont solve the flood problem on the app review side, but they might use two different queues one for new and one for updates

[FlagellumDei]

New Apps would get high priority in the reviewing queue, and the updates could wait longer.

I think that many customers will miss good apps, if the updated apps are not in the released list, and if they are not checking the AppStore each day.

For example, our games got sales boost when they are updated (up to x10), and positive feedback. All these customers who bought our games after updates wouldn't otherwise know about the games if they wouldn't be updated.

Keywords are useless. You are visiting google to find something specific, so keywords are extremely important, but on the App Store you buy what you see on the first pages, because you can always find something that catches your eye.

[Little White Bear Studios]

one potential side effect, btw...

mentioned by nattylux... is that if the # of "frivolous" updates do drop off due to this system, then the approval queue should be shortened.

arn

Exactly, at least until everyone starts releasing version 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. instead of just updating the app.

We can't even say this news is real yet, since the store is completely messed up right now. Heck, checking right now, Blocked in on the New Release list, with a date of Nov. 6th, version 1.0, and has 11,000 reviews. As far as I know, it has not had an update, ever.

Edit: Just checked my stats for yesterday. One of my Lite versions, which has never had an update, had 8 update downloads. How is that possible?

Now, if this news is true, I'm a bit torn. The success of my apps were very much tied to the update process, since I routinely provided new content. Fans loved the new content, and the update boost would bring in more cash, which motivated me to make more content. Everybody won. However, doing all those updates most certainly delayed work on new games. If updates are no longer profitable, I can't imagine doing them at the same rate as before, so I'll have more time to make new stuff, which is good, as maintaining an old product is not the most exciting thing in the world.

[MidianGTX]

I'd prefer an "Updated Apps" category too. It's always annoyed me seeing old apps in the Recently released section, I appreciate that it's helpful for the developers but you have to admit... it's not that helpful for consumers who are trying to avoid seeing all the games they've heard about and only want the latest stuff.

[Little White Bear Studios]

I'd prefer an "Updated Apps" category too. It's always annoyed me seeing old apps in the Recently released section, I appreciate that it's helpful for the developers but you have to admit... it's not that helpful for consumers who are trying to avoid seeing all the games they've heard about and only want the latest stuff.

It would certainly be nice if the updates didn't disappear entirely, but I have a feeling an Updated Apps list wouldn't get looked at very much by the average consumer. It sort of has a used car lot vibe to it, in my mind anyway. Get your not new apps right here, folks! :)

[Syndicated Puzzles]

Back to my point about Xmas( which no one commented on)...

I really do believe Apple had no choice but to make this change at this precise moment before Xmas. It makes sense! Early enough to get the word out there, that updates don't get any special treatment anymore. The timing really explains a lot!

[bomber]

Our update for Cocoto Kart didn't appear in the release-date-list and we didn't had any boost either from our v1.2 update. However our game Allowin Pumpkins, released in October 2008, suddenly appeared in the release-date-list. Go figure.
Personally I don't think changing the release-date list is doing anything to prevent spam. Spammers will just create tons of new apps instead of updates, that will increase the number of apps on the App Store and help Apples marketing. It will probably also make the reviews take even longer.
On the other hand there is no benefit of update an app anymore. You don't get better visibility. Also the rating is changing randomly: the 100 five star ratings of your previous version are lost and its only showing the single one star review of the new version.

[Flickitty]

Back to my point about Xmas( which no one commented on)...

I really do believe Apple had no choice but to make this change at this precise moment before Xmas. It makes sense! Early enough to get the word out there, that updates don't get any special treatment anymore. The timing really explains a lot!

Actually, I thought you had a good point when you first made the comment, I just forgot to respond. Holiday updates are going to be ridiculous.

TBH, we have a holiday update planned, but it is for our existing user base and is a natural extension of the existing game. We won't be affected by the changes to the App Store.

[Little White Bear Studios]

Also the rating is changing randomly: the 100 five star ratings of your previous version are lost and its only showing the single one star review of the new version.

That's by design, as of about nine months ago. It was meant to give people who had a crappy version, with crappy reviews, the chance to improve their app with an update, and get a fresh start. Personally, I hated the change, as I update often, and always have high rankings. Yet I look worse than my competition, because they never update, and have a much higher review count because of it.

[Little White Bear Studios]

On the other hand there is no benefit of update an app anymore. You don't get better visibility.

There is a side benefit to updating. Every time I update my most popular game, I show customers a list of my other games on startup. Sales of my other games go up considerably with each update of the main game.

[quantumsheep]

Furthermore, I am very careful where I send my Promo Codes. I know exactly who has what code, and I do not send them blindly unless the site responds and tells me they are interested. Keri Honea was such a gal to repond promptly.

Keri is awesome - wonderful person to deal with :)

[Knight]

Edit: Just checked my stats for yesterday. One of my Lite versions, which has never had an update, had 8 update downloads. How is that possible?


Ya I'm getting the same for Tap-Fu, which has no updates (at version 1.0). I wonder if that is from sales that we aren't being paid for or just some other bug? I hope the latter. :|

[Flickitty]

There is a side benefit to updating. Every time I update my most popular game, I show customers a list of my other games on startup. Sales of my other games go up considerably with each update of the main game.

Quoted for truth.

We have a dynamic banner system that pulls info from our server. I can update it whenever I want, without an submitting to Apple. This is mostly as a precaution and a service for the customer, in case we find something REALLY wrong with the game, we want to alert the players.

Updates should cater to your existing customers. You can keep track of how many people are upgrading (thus how many people still have the game on their device). Don't let your upgrades slip too far- those are the people that will talk about your game, and generate business for you.

[EssentialParadox]

there is no benefit of update an app anymore.

It shocks me the couple of devs in this topic who've said this. It only makes me think how poor of a developer you are to not care about your current customers, and that you'd screw them over for a few sales. That really isn't the attitude a development company needs to have if they want to be successful in the longer term.


Personally, I hated the change, as I update often, and always have high rankings. Yet I look worse than my competition.
Maybe have more thorough beta testing, and hopefully you won't need to update so often?

I can't help but think that it's a good thing a lot of the complaining devs aren't developing on more traditional platforms. For the DS/Wii/PSP/and 360 & PS3 owners who don't have theirs hooked up to an internet connection, you can't even make updates to games. If there's a major bug you have to recall the discs/cartridges at huge expense (see Wii version of Guitar Hero 3.)


I do appreciate a lot of what you're saying is adding whole new 'features' and levels to a game, but this change should encourage developers to have a more fully featured app to start with, which should lead to better initial reviews, and a better shot out of the starting gates.

[Little White Bear Studios]

Maybe have more thorough beta testing, and hopefully you won't need to update so often?

My apps are tested. I've fixed exactly one minor bug in one app, which was reported by 2 people out of 500,000. I've been on the store for 15 months. Some of us add features and content to perfectly working apps.

[Little White Bear Studios]

It shocks me the couple of devs in this topic who've said this. It only makes me think how poor of a developer you are to not care about your current customers, and that you'd screw them over for a few sales. That really isn't the attitude a development company needs to have if they want to be successful in the longer term.

We all love our customers. However, devs can't give free updates forever on an app that most likely cost less than $2. Updates involve work. Work takes time, which is time not being spent making a new app. If we spend all our time making free updates, with no sales to accompany it, we go out of business. That means no updates on anything, ever. We update apps that help us stay in business, or to fulfill promises, so we can make more stuff for you to play with. That's the opposite of screwing people over.

[mobile1up]

It shocks me the couple of devs in this topic who've said this. It only makes me think how poor of a developer you are to not care about your current customers, and that you'd screw them over for a few sales. That really isn't the attitude a development company needs to have if they want to be successful in the longer term.

customers shouldn't expect updates unless there is something wrong; or the developer can take suggestions for improvements. either way; users will get an update if one is posted - iTunes has a great mechanism for this. the issue is that the developer wont get an "exposure fix" to possibly make new sales.

it is better to spend more time on the development before releasing it to make sure the product is good before it hits the market. this is better than releasing a semi-complete version and then flooding users with updates. i work more on this model than anything else - however, our first apps had lots of updates (mainly getting feedback/suggestions from users) while we learnt how people wanted to use our applications.

[GlennX]

As someone who just released my first app, I'm kind of pleased that 2 days later it's still on the first page of the racing category rather than pushed on to the second by loads of revs.

I guess I might feel different if I'd just updated but isn't it possible that the spikes people see when they rev might be at least partly due to do with a bunch of people seeing the rev, running the app for the first time in months and good old word-of-mouth kicking in?

[Little White Bear Studios]

I guess I might feel different if I'd just updated but isn't it possible that the spikes people see when they rev might be at least partly due to do with a bunch of people seeing the rev, running the app for the first time in months and good old word-of-mouth kicking in?

No, it's a very immediate spike, that usually only lasts for a day or two max. Word of mouth is a slower process, and much longer lasting.

[bomber]

It shocks me the couple of devs in this topic who've said this. It only makes me think how poor of a developer you are to not care about your current customers, and that you'd screw them over for a few sales. That really isn't the attitude a development company needs to have if they want to be successful in the longer term.
I think you have not understood me correctly. We will of course still do updates, because we like to play our games ourself and also try to build a good relationship with our customers.

What I mean is that now there is no financial benefit at all for doing updates. You have to spend a lot of time for doing the update, but you will not appear in anyones shopping list of release list, so you don't get any additional download. On the other hand you are risking to get bad reviews, especially in countries where less people buy your products. For Cocoto Kart Online v1.2 the first review in US was "doesnt startup on my 3G". That review is shown on top in iTunes and probably hurts our sales. We cannot even help the people who have problems since they are using iTunes or Apple to report problems instead of using our support email. Such things don't really motivate to make updates "just for the fun". It is also the reason why big publishers often don't do any updates - it just doesn't make financial sense. Small developers will still do updates, because they like making games and want to have their games being close to perfect. You will however see some devs stop doing updates when they see that they don't make money at all and need to make new games instead of riding a dead horse.

[eJayStudios]

Apple should create a new category: Updated Apps. So, everyone would be happy.

that would be nice. In the New Releases tab they could make 2 categories - New Games and Updates. New Games would be at the top of of the list followed by updates.

This way new game would get full exposure.

[Intruder_qcc]

I am not too sure if this supposedly new changes (difficult to confirm as like people mentioned the AppStore seems to be behaving kinda odd now) will be good or not.

Currently I didn't release my game yet, but a friend of mine did (I help with some coding and promotion). What I have seen is that each time he got his spike of sales was in each day or following days of when he made an update (he made 2 in total).

He got his first batch of sales at the initial launch, then sales drop off. Once the first update came in sales spike again then drop off, second update sales spikes again then drop off. So for him update was the only way he will get noticed and get people to buy his game which sadly was in a very crowded categories... Puzzle :(.

I guess for people that have a big marketing/promotion machine like big studuios (EA, GameLoft, etc...) appearing or not in the new release list might not be as important. But for little indie devs this was one of the most simple and effective way to get noticed (beside being featured by Apple).

Now we might get another problem, like some of you already mentioned that some devs might simply decide to release Game v1, Game v2, Game v3, etc... so they reappear in the new release list. That would be very bad as your current customer wont be able to update anymore :(.

Will see what's gonna happen.

[jlanis86]

Everyone just needs to calm down and stop acting like the sky is falling. This is only a rumor, and nothing more.

[lazrhog]

Whilst I am still following through on my committments to updates because that's the kind of guy I am .... I am considering other options that I wasn't before. This latest change doesn't seem to benefit the consumer, which all of apples changes have before.

[Fe1]

Apple should create a new category: Updated Apps. So, everyone would be happy.

This is so common-sensical, I can't imagine why they don't have one already.

Mind you, if as another poster surmised (correctly, I think), that the servers would melt with holiday updates due to the upcoming Xmas season, then they would still crash with all the apps trying to get exposure in this new category.

What I've gleaned from this thread is that what is good for some developers, is disastrous for others. It all depends on how each dev's personal circumstances. Given that there is nothing that Apple can do to please all, it is a wonder they even try.

[TrueAxis]

We are waiting for our first game to go through the submission process.

It seems our game might well be popular, and we are getting a load of suggestions for updates based on our video releases.

We also want to add new stuff ourselves... Don't get me wrong the game is complete and tested and in a traditional console we would release and forget about it. And add these features for a sequel.

We will be releasing at 1.99USD and I predict this will be the best bargain on the App Store. Going in cheap is good for what I'm going to say below.

I think word and mouth is the best marketing tool after release plus if you do manage to get popular, a lot of the online sites will inform people of the new update.

Now I'm going to say a dirty word - micro transactions. This is how you get your user base to spend more money. And this is where the developer has to offer something worth paying for. For level packs, this is fine, for new game modes, this is fine. Effectively anything that can be classed as making a sequel.

So, for developers it all comes down to been smart from the word go, and investing more time and money making a product that people will actually want, and not some old tired concept seen a million times. As I said before this is a good move by Apple.

[Harpgliss]

Hi,

Dude, search is not that popular actually. People just want to be told what to see, not to think and search for something (for the better part of the time). People just hit the "Recently released" list, browse there, buy stuff and that's it...it's so rare that they think of a specific app to search for. But when you see "hmm, a new jokes app...cool. let me try it.." this is what leads to sales! Not "hmm, i think i want a jokes app right now, lets find one".
I say this with quite a lot of experience on this platform!


I have to say thank you for this post.

You have guaranteed that I would never buy one of your apps.

Having such a low opinion of your potential customers is abysmal.

People just want to be told what to see, not to think and search for something

Only speaking for myself, I always search for apps.

I research all my potential purchases and read most, if not all feedback on the appstore and other sources such as this community.

I know people who buy apple products are referred to as isheep but you do not have the right or knowledge to just stick all potential customers into a category of just being mindless.

I know I am new to posting here and should ease myself into the community here but just had to speak my mind.

Yes, I do have a mind and my own independent thoughts too. :D

David

[MindJuice]

Only speaking for myself, I always search for apps.

How exactly do you normally go about this? I am asking honestly, because I can't imagine what I would type into iTunes to search for a fun new game that I've never heard of. For apps it makes more sense I suppose, assuming I already know what sort of thing I want, but if someone has created something uniquely new and cool, I can't really search for that, but I might see it on the New Releases list.

I research all my potential purchases and read most, if not all feedback on the appstore and other sources such as this community.

That's great that you research an app before you buy it. I do the same, but before you or I can research an app, we have to first FIND IT. For that, many, many people (but not all people), will simply view the top lists of overall games/apps or maybe games/apps in a given category. They also look at the New Releases list to find out what's new.

Others, like many members of TA, come to sites like this to find the latest info on what's hot and what's not. We are, however, BY FAR the minority of the iPhone game/app buying public.

I think cramzy is just pointing out the way that most people find games/apps. I don't believe it is disrespectful to make an observation about the general behavior of people in a given market.

This change, if it occurs, will definitely have a negative impact on those who relied on it to boost their sales.

I have my first game update coming out in a few weeks, and I had been imagining a nice boost in sales from getting on the New Releases list, but now I will take other measures to try to get noticed.

[Harpgliss]

Hi,

Maybe my post above was a little harsh but my opinion still stands.

Craamzy, as a developer needs to be careful on how they express their thoughts when posting to a public forum, such as this one.

As for how I search:

I go to the appstore, see the front page and read the top apps in the various categories.

Often going through specific categories completely, if I am looking for a specific type of app.

I read reviews and can almost instantly weed out the BS ones as just that.

There are several forums I check out, not going to bore you with the names but they are probably the obvious ones that would come to mind.

I check over to appshopper and 148apps for to get an idea of new apps as ell as ones that are discounted or updated.

Also have Bargain bin installed on my Touch for browsing much like I do at the above sites.

Even doing all that, I have had a few apps that have not worked out.

My impulse buys are limited to $0.99 ones nowadays.

David

[MindJuice]

Hi,

Maybe my post above was a little harsh but my opinion still stands.

Craamzy, as a developer needs to be careful on how they express their thoughts when posting to a public forum, such as this one.

As for how I search:

I go to the appstore, see the front page and read the top apps in the various categories.

Often going through specific categories completely, if I am looking for a specific type of app.

I read reviews and can almost instantly weed out the BS ones as just that.

There are several forums I check out, not going to bore you with the names but they are probably the obvious ones that would come to mind.

I check over to appshopper and 148apps for to get an idea of new apps as ell as ones that are discounted or updated.

Also have Bargain bin installed on my Touch for browsing much like I do at the above sites.

Even doing all that, I have had a few apps that have not worked out.

My impulse buys are limited to $0.99 ones nowadays.

David

Thanks David. I appreciate the info.

[Harpgliss]

Hi,

Thanks.

I do not think any method is perfect but this works well for me, so far.

It always helps when you can read posts by the developer on the app and see how they respond to issues found by customers.

David

[cramzy]

This became quite a discussion :)
But, the way I see it now, a few days later, things are like this:
1. Half the devs agree with Apple's move, the other half doesn't... So, I guess it was not THAT supid from Apple's side...I just happened to be from the "other half".
2. Indeed, after this change, new apps have better chance at being seen. I can tell from experience, that if your app doesn't make it to Top 100 in these 2-3 days while it's visible at some level, it can never make it there...you can see app's potential for 1-2 days, and after this move your app has a better chance at being seen for such a long time.

- Iliya

[Harpgliss]

Hi,

To reply to the topic at hand, I see a lot of worrying and people getting their knickers in a knot over something that has not happened yet.

I usually wait to give myself an ulcer until there is a reason for me to have one.

Just not sure there is a reason here, yet, anyways.

David

[cramzy]

Hi,

To reply to the topic at hand, I see a lot of worrying and people getting their knickers in a knot over something that has not happened yet.

I usually wait to give myself an ulcer until there is a reason for me to have one.

Just not sure there is a reason here, yet, anyways.

David

Hi David,

As I said in the original article I posted on our website, I spoke to Apple representative who's relatively high in the hierarchy. He's the one who told me about this change, and judging by what I see for the past couple of days, I think he didn't lie to me.

Cheers,
ILIYA

[Harpgliss]

Hi,

Since you mention the article on your website, I thought I would respond to a few points you make.

What does this mean? For us, Cramzy, as well as most small devs like us, it very much means that we may not continue working on this platform.

Why would you stop developing for a format that reaches so many potential customers?

Really, I think developers, if they can, should try and develop for multiple formats.

Again, if possible, why limit yourselves?

1) If updates won't lead to increase of sales anymore, there's not much sense in making so many of them...there's no sense in trying to perfect something, when you know you're perfecting it for some good 5-10 people per day.

I am hearing this is in response to developers releasing updates that are not really needed, just to get a sales boost and abusing the system.

2) Small devs would prefer to go to different platforms like Android and Symbian. Even though these platforms do not have such a huge customer base yet, they provide developer friendly envifornment, unlike Apple.

I see you making a lot less money on either format you mention, but that is your choice.

3) Only big players with few exceptions will stay on the iPhone market, because in this new state, it would take a luck or a huge advertising budget to earn anything out of the iPhone.

Developers, and I am not being specific here, will have to rely on being a little more inventive in their apps and a little less lazy.

Customers, as the quantity of apps increase, are getting choosier.

This will only make that moreso.

4) The overall quality of software will drop dramatically. And for a reason. Customers will become angry with this, and will be less and less willing to pay for apps, knowing that updates are not expected.

Developers start to put less of an effort into the quality of the apps they produce, they will lose out and force themselves to switch to another format to develop for.

Something known as a self fulfilling prophecy.

5) The amount of apps would dramatically decrease its count. After developers' contracts expire, their apps will be taken off, so I expect a decrease in the amount of apps in the near future. With the Motorola DROID coming along, this is probably the end of the iPhone era.

The number of apps decrease? Good!

There are too many worthless apps in the appstore now so if those developers move on and their apps are no longer in the appstore, great news for the customers and the developers that stay.

Congratulations Apple. You just shot yourself. Go change your logo now, from a bitten Apple to a shot Apple.

I am no big fan of Apple but not being able to see into the future, how can you say this is a bad decision?

If you are so dissatisfied with the structure and policies of Apple, maybe it is time for you to change formats.

I am not saying you need not speak out on this or other things about Apple that bother you.

Just saying that you must, or should have known how they run things and made a long term choice to deal with their policies, lame as they may be.

I do think this is a way to maybe make things better for customers and developers, but this is just how I see it.

You are totally entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to disagree with that opinion.

I do hope this will be a good thing and it helps both the customer and developer.

David

[EssentialParadox]

We all love our customers. However, devs can't give free updates forever on an app that most likely cost less than $2. Updates involve work. Work takes time, which is time not being spent making a new app. If we spend all our time making free updates, with no sales to accompany it, we go out of business. That means no updates on anything, ever. We update apps that help us stay in business, or to fulfill promises, so we can make more stuff for you to play with. That's the opposite of screwing people over.
I apologize, I think the thought of developers not bothering to fix bugs made me overreact with my comments.

I think you have not understood me correctly. We will of course still do updates, because we like to play our games ourself and also try to build a good relationship with our customers.

What I mean is that now there is no financial benefit at all for doing updates. You have to spend a lot of time for doing the update, but you will not appear in anyones shopping list of release list, so you don't get any additional download.

I think there's still value in adding new features in updates. TouchArcade still posts about updates (Which is in fact the way I personally find out new updates to games, rather than the iTunes homepage.)

Even if website promotion from an update isn't enough to make it worthwhile, I would personally suggest following the Halo model on the Xbox: You can release new levels/maps/content as DLC packs for a small fee - $2.99, or whatever - and then make it free to all other customers after a year. The hardcore players will spend the few dollars to get in early, the casual players will benefit after a year. The end result is that everyone will think of you as a developer who cares about your customers. So I think there is still value, and even financial benefit, in adding features to your games.

[EssentialParadox]

This latest change doesn't seem to benefit the consumer
In the sense of getting free updates to old games, no it doesn't. But I find there is a definite benefit to both devs and consumers in that they get a less-cluttered 'new releases' list in iTunes, where a game will sit in that list for a few weeks instead of a few days.

Instead of getting continually pushed into that list by updates, now you get a longer stay in that list when you first release your app. It's unfortunate for those devs who have already released apps before this change, but if you were just due to release a new app, I think you'd be very happy about the change.

[EssentialParadox]

As someone who just released my first app, I'm kind of pleased that 2 days later it's still on the first page of the racing category rather than pushed on to the second by loads of revs.

That was the effect I predicted after this change. I didn't expect you to stay on the front page for a matter of days, though! - Let's hope it stays that way and results in very good sales for you, Glenn. :)

How exactly do you normally go about this? I am asking honestly, because I can't imagine what I would type into iTunes to search for a fun new game that I've never heard of.
Well, to give an example of recent searches I've made:
- "Tenori-on" (a yamaha instrument)
- "platformer"
- "horror"
- "FPS"
- "city building"
- "simulation"
…then I'll just browse the results. The search bar allows for discovering groups of games that might exist in a specific sub-genre that isn't defined in iTunes.

But I do understand what you're saying, if it's a completely new style of game people won't be searching for it, in which case you need shelf space on sites and on the iTunes front page. But hopefully you should get that now developers will be getting a longer stretch in the "new releases" list.

[aaronsullivan]

These comments about how individuals search are not very useful to a developer. Why? Because these are comments from people who regularly read TouchArcade and _furthermore_ participate in discussions on the forum. This type of person (while wise and passionate) is about as far from an average consumer as one can get. Right?

Anyway, I tend to see this as a step in the right direction. Objectively from afar I think everyone can see that the update churning is sort of an artificial construct. The problem isn't this new change but a more fundamental one: How do apps continue to get noticed in a store full of 100,000 apps.

Every developer and consumer (whether each knows it or not) would benefit from a better system of connecting consumer wants with the right selection of apps. It's just not an easy problem to solve.

I think the genius thing is a step in the right direction. It seems to get a very interesting batch of apps that aren't necessarily on the other lists and it's good for discovery -- it even reminds the consumer of some apps they may not have played for a long time. It's not very prominent, though. It should be UP FRONT. I know that it sorta kinda _is_ but I always miss it.

I do wish there was a genius option in the non-iphone iTunes App Store -- if there is one and I'm missing it, then it is very, very hidden. It could be smarter, too. You could click on a game and find more apps like THIS one. (Why not add that to the iPhone, too?) Isn't that the most natural way? I like this game, but I'm done with it, I wonder what else is out there that is like it... click. Only there is no fast/easy way to do that right now.

SHORT VERSION: If deep satisfying app discovery was easier for the user, we wouldn't care about this issue. :D

[Uptown Arts]

I don't know how this factors into the discussion, but the release date category seems to be near-random atm. Somebody go have a look and let me know if you can make out a pattern.

[jlanis86]

I don't know how this factors into the discussion, but the release date category seems to be near-random atm. Somebody go have a look and let me know if you can make out a pattern.

Apple is trying to deliberately confuse us - it's part of their strategy. ;)

[Flickitty]

You know what I'd like to see? A shuffle category. Each time it is refreshed, a different list of Top 10 shows up.

I have the feeling I am missing a LOT of cool games simply because the developer didn't know how to market the game, got discouraged and the game was buried. I've seen this happen a lot over the years.

[Twitchfactor]

So let me get this straight...

Developers have to release products that aren't BETAs and do micro-updates to boost their rankings and do constant bug fixes?

There'll be less apps in the store because people who can't game the system need to move to a platform they can?

Apps of low quality will drop off the lists faster, because of no ability to cheat the system with update spam?

Wow, this all sounds horrible from the perspective of a developer that wants to do quality work, doesn't feel like constantly supporting a COMPLETE game and someone who has the ability to sell in-game add-ons.

Game on.

[jlanis86]

Someone in the official developer forums has posted an email received from Apple which essentially confirms the rumor:

App categories on the App Store when organized by Released Date will show the latest new apps by the app's original released date. The category section does not show the newest updates.

In the meantime, there's still no public announcement from Apple, and the App Store remains to be riddled with problems.

[cramzy]

Yup, I got reply from them earlier today. This is the complete message:
Hello Iliya,

The released date displayed on an application page is the date the latest version went live on the App Store. This date will allow customers to be aware of the date this version was released.

On category pages, applications are sorted according to the date the first version of the app went live on the App Store. Sorting by the original app released date creates a list where customers can easily find the most recent additions to the App Store.

Both of these dates are automatically set and cannot be edited in iTunes Connect.

Best Regards,

iTunes Connect Support

Apple, Inc.
1 Infinite Loop,
Cupertino, CA 95014
itunesconnect@apple.com

[Uptown Arts]

You know what I'd like to see? A shuffle category. Each time it is refreshed, a different list of Top 10 shows up.

I have the feeling I am missing a LOT of cool games simply because the developer didn't know how to market the game, got discouraged and the game was buried. I've seen this happen a lot over the years.

Wouldn't it be great if it re-shuffled when you shook the phone?

[Flickitty]

Wouldn't it be great if it re-shuffled when you shook the phone?

YES!

I'll admit that with over 100,000 apps, this could be difficult to pull off, and probably something that we would never see. Over the last couple weeks I've asked questions and found links on this forum that led to some truly interesting games. If I only paid attention to the current top lists, i would have missed these.

Back in the day on Pocket PC was an interesting game called Nutcracker, by a programmer named Jacco Bikker (very talented guy). I think his game got lost in the shuffle of all the other crap that was coming out.

Nutcracker was solid, though. I'm pretty sure there are a few titles like this on iPhone.

[khangtoh]

This is a great move by Apple. First off, developers shouldn't update apps just to bump themselves onto the Release List. This should kill off a bunch of spammy apps.

Our new game is in review and that's certainly good news and I really hope this new scheme gets implemented before our game is approved!

In addition, I would suggest to Apple to remove apps that received no updates for apps over 6 mths to remove them as "dead" apps - sorry for the this ;) but i call that Garbage Disposal!

[mobile1up]

In addition, I would suggest to Apple to remove apps that received no updates for apps over 6 mths to remove them as "dead" apps - sorry for the this ;) but i call that Garbage Disposal!

this is stupid - especially if the application is implemented and no additional updates are required (bug fixes = definitely); but, there is no contractual obligation for any developer to continue working on games and add new features to them. once complete; it could be a very good game for many year.

[d1]

this is stupid - especially if the application is implemented and no additional updates are required (bug fixes = definitely); but, there is no contractual obligation for any developer to continue working on games and add new features to them. once complete; it could be a very good game for many year.
i agree, its too much to expect a dev to constantly and constantly update apps, while it is nice, there's only so much that can be added, and more than that, they have to move on to a new project at some point.

[bootant]

Newly released Apps are no longer shown in New Release list too!

We just released a new game:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/uboot-free/id338038058?mt=8
And our new game is not on New Release list

[cramzy]

Newly released Apps are no longer shown in New Release list too!

We just released a new game:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/uboot-free/id338038058?mt=8
And our new game is not on New Release list

Hi!

Keep in mind that it might take up to 24 hours to appear in this list. Apple says it's 48 hours, but in my experience- it's less than 24 hours. So, be patient..you'll eventually show up there. Even if it's on page 148881 due to some bug in the AppStore (you know- these happen all the time).

Cheers,
ILIYA

[bootant]

Hi!

Keep in mind that it might take up to 24 hours to appear in this list. Apple says it's 48 hours, but in my experience- it's less than 24 hours. So, be patient..you'll eventually show up there. Even if it's on page 148881 due to some bug in the AppStore (you know- these happen all the time).

Cheers,
ILIYA
if you carefully look at newly released games list it is really messed up. there are apps which were released a long time ago and these apps on the top. this a bug not a feature.

[rdklein]

I saw some apps in with a future release date.

[OneEye]

Add a "Recently Updated" category. Problem fixed...

We would have never released the Underworlds 1.2 update for free under this model, it just wouldn't have make sense. This change is going to hurt the customer and the small/mid sized development shops in a pretty major way.

It seems at every step of the process Apple looks for ways to alienate the developers who actually made this platform successful. I really don't see a clear purpose for most of the changes that have happened over the last year, other than Apple has no real clue of why or how the AppStore is what it is.

[Intruder_qcc]

@OneEye

Or if we go with conspiracy theory with big money involves... it could be that big development studio such as EA, GameLoft as they dont like the competition of smaller indie dev that flood the AppStore decided to give some donnation (=bribe) to Apple so they change their store policy to better suit their needs.

The worst is that I wont even surprise if part of some of the AppStore changes that happen since it open last year would be link to one of them. :(

[bootant]

I don't believe in any conspiracy theory. If we go this way we can start discussing that may be some aliens involved here or may be even free masons responsible for this mess :) Don't worry guys! The real "problem" with AppStore that there are too many developers who produce too many apps ;) This is exactly our problem! Read some classics (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=crisis+of+overproduction&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) about this problem :D

[khangtoh]

this is stupid - especially if the application is implemented and no additional updates are required (bug fixes = definitely); but, there is no contractual obligation for any developer to continue working on games and add new features to them. once complete; it could be a very good game for many year.

Six months to update an app is not too much to ask IMO. It could a bug fix or something minor just to make sure that you care about you application.

[mobile1up]

Six months to update an app is not too much to ask IMO. It could a bug fix or something minor just to make sure that you care about you application.

how do you update a game which is a replication of a classic? i think it really depends on the type of game in question. i guess the worst case you could update your copyright string to include the current year :) but that isn't a very useful update. what about game engines that use DLC for level packs? you add levels; but, you don't update the game so to say.

when we worked on our gw_ series; especially the original versions - we received a tonne of feedback and we integrated it into the applications. hence we had a lot of updates in the early days.. once we had a few games out; we knew what people wanted and hence we didn't need to update as often - we ensured the features they wanted were in the games already..

- resume play
- ability to play music in background
- multiple control systems
- high score submission

your 1st game will be different than your nth game :) mainly because you should have built a good base environment to work from for every new game (that; gets improved with every user comment)

if users found good ideas to improve our games - we would happily accept them and do something about it. but without that feedback; we are pretty much complete with those games - and, all new iphone / ipod touch users should be able to buy them for many years to come.

[ddn]

Just noticed this affect today on my recently updated app. Very disappointing, the AppStore is broken as it is , now even more so.

[ImagineNET]

I just noticed some developers found how to be listed in "the new release" in updating their application (Ranking and reviews are not affected) !

Eg: Animals Sound Machine in the family category ...
Released: Nov 14 2009
316 rating!
First review: 22 Jul 2008.

Really, Apple needs to change the itunes developpers!

[Little White Bear Studios]

I just noticed some developers found how to be listed in "the new release" in updating their application (Ranking and reviews are not affected) !

I'm pretty sure the devs aren't doing it. There are tons of apps that are showing the exact same behavior, some from well respected devs even. The new release lists are just completely screwed up right now.

[Uptown Arts]

If the devs are doing it, they're being vewy, vewy quiet about it ;)

[Anders]

I don't understand why you guys are complaining here. And by the way, you really should try to sell something on the Android Market place or get into PSN/Live!, then I'm most confident you would be super super happy with the App Store and even the ever so long approval times.

Plus, your state of mind should be "oh it was great while it lasted" instead of "man, my entire business model doesn't work anymore because it was designed around a flaw in the App Store!".

I just know I wouldn't be making games if it wasn't for the App Store.

Just saying. And cheer up.