Grassroots consumer advocates exposing scam artists selling games for more than 99¢

[natedogg213]

Here is the official theme song of this thread-

YouTube: video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0)

Don't act like you don't love every moment of it. This thread is almost in the Top 10 (post wise) in the General Game Discussion section. Yet, I am guessing that it never occurred to you (or your antsy mods that keep sending posts here) that pricing conversations continue because price is a legitimate issue to consumers in a gaming environment that is unlike anything we've really ever seen? I mean what is with this crusade by the same ol' people (Volvin, Backtothis, et al) to be the defenders of App Store pricing!?

Anyways - I pose a question, part sarcastically but with a touch of curious suspicion: does Touch Arcade get paid to advertise games in the "iPhone and iPod Touch Games" section of the forum and as a result feels compelled or pressured to patrol the game threads and relocate posts that question the price? Why do you all care so much! These are forums, people aren't breaking rules so why intervene!?

[backtothis]

Um there's that many posts here because the moderators move posts here nearly daily from the threads in the release section. Lol, you said it yourself. They used to use another trash can in the lounge, but now use this one instead. Hodapp can address the rest since no one else would actually know the answer. There wouldn't be any kind of 'crusade' if people like you didn't start this kind of crap. Release threads are meant to be used to discuss the game, not complain about prices.

[DaveMc99]

Price discussion is important to some members.. which is why posts were moved here and not deleted. Others know if a game is not worth the price a dev is asking then they don't buy it.

[backtothis]

Price discussion is important to some members.. which is why posts were moved here and not deleted. Others know if a game is not worth the price a dev is asking then they don't buy it.

Exactly. That's why this is here. Post all the shit you want in here. Just don't do it in the release threads.

[dumaz1000]

It's more like "out of sight, out of mind."

Extreme iOS fanboys don't want to confront the damage their own cheapness does to the overall competitive fairness of the marketplace. They sweep the whole thing under the rug and remain in denial. The one law, above all others, that governs our universe. For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. There is a steep price, even if it's not a monetary one, to be paid for supporting a climate the recklessly encourages an unfairly fleecing the gaming marketplace. Just because you can, doesn't neccessarily mean that you should. There are consequences. Anyone with half a brain realizes that these games are worth 5 times more than what we are paying for them. A game worth $10 or 20 is selling for $2, because of unfair/unreasonable market demand, and people have the nerve to bitch and moan and demand that it sell $1 instead of $2.

High-quality indie games are rarely produced anymore. Games like Aralon and Mission Europa are very very rare these days. The vast majority of Indie apps are now cash-grab casual mini game-type craaps. It didn't always used to be like that. I've been around the scene a long time, so I should know. There were always craaps, of course, but there was a time when there were many more quality indie devs. There used to be a lot more devs period, makes all qualities of game. Most are pretty obviously gone. They could not remain competitive within the "race to the bottom" economy.

Major developers continue to strip out more and more content so that they can, in turn, justify selling their games for cheaper and cheaper. Many high quality EA and Gameloft games include roughly 2 hours of base gameplay, which is sad. It's sad that Dead Space is 2 hours long. It's sad that EA felt at some point compelled to sell Dead Space for .99c. That is legitimately a $40 game on the DS, 3DS, PSP, NGP.

If you think there is a significant difference from pirating a PC copy of Dead Space, or buy the iOS version of Dead Space for .99c, there's not as much difference as you'd like to believe. Legally, there is. Sure. Morally and ethically, not so much. You know what you are doing is wrong. You know that you are damaging the gaming community. Yet, you do not care. You care only about your own instant gradification, the long-term consquences of your actions be damned.

Although that copy of Dead Space sells for 6.99, it's worth (in comparision the gaming marketplace as a whole, and not just the iOS marketplace by itself, in a vaccum) 19.99, mimium. And you just bought it for a dollar. That's the type of selfish attitude that will and has put countless developers out of business. EA can handle it. EA can also handle you stealing the PC version for nothing. It's not going to put them out of business. But that doesn't make it right.

[natedogg213]

Um there's that many posts here because the moderators move posts here nearly daily from the threads in the release section. Lol, you said it yourself. They used to use another trash can in the lounge, but now use this one instead. Hodapp can address the rest since no one else would actually know the answer. There wouldn't be any kind of 'crusade' if people like you didn't start this kind of crap. Release threads are meant to be used to discuss the game, not complain about prices.

Thanks for repeating exactly what I said. I am not the problem as you call it because I don't go to release threads to comment about price. But if I felt compelled to do so, why not!? And if I remember correctly, FFIII is and remains the only game I have pricing issues with. And I didn't start the thread.

[natedogg213]

Price discussion is important to some members.. which is why posts were moved here and not deleted. Others know if a game is not worth the price a dev is asking then they don't buy it.

Thank you officer!!

[yemi]

Yeah it hurt my heart to see the Epic Dead Space go to 99 cents. I brought it while it was $7 and enjoyed various playthroughs. Last year the games improved in huge leaps and bounds. I dont see the same type of leap this year after that.

[backtothis]

Thanks for repeating exactly what I said. I am not the problem as you call it because I don't go to release threads to comment about price. But if I felt compelled to do so, why not!? And if I remember correctly, FFIII is and remains the only game I have pricing issues with. And I didn't start the thread.

If all of this is true, then we have no argument. If you honestly only feel that FFIII is overpriced, that's perfectly fine. It's not hard to see why many people would. However, your comments in this thread really don't suggest that FFIII is the only price you're not okay about. I never said you started this thread. You may not post such things in threads, but do you deny that a third to a half of the comments of nearly every release thread of a game priced over a dollar do contain these comments? Just who are you defending here?

[natedogg213]

It's more like "out of sight, out of mind."

Extreme iOS fanboys don't want to confront the damage their own cheapness does to the overall competitive fairness of the marketplace. They sweep the whole thing under the rug and remain in denial.

Aren't extreme iOS fanboys the ones buying every game that comes out? If not, what makes one an iOS fanboy?

There is a steep price, even if it's not a monetary one, to be paid for supporting a climate the recklessly encourages an unfairly fleecing the gaming marketplace. Just because you can, doesn't neccessarily mean that you should. There are consequences.

I read this first sentence a few times and don't follow. By fleecing the gaming marketplace are you referring to game companies right? And what are the consequences you speak of?

Anyone with half a brain realizes that these games are worth 5 times more than what we are paying for them. A game worth $10 or 20 is selling for $2, because of unfair/unreasonable market demand, and people have the nerve to bitch and moan and demand that it sell $1 instead of $2.

So Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Doodle Jump and the top $1 games should be $5-20!? And "unfair/unreasonable market demand"!? You'd give an economist a heart attack. It's alright though, they're not credible anyways ;)

High-quality indie games are rarely produced anymore. Games like Aralon and Mission Europa are very very rare these days. The vast majority of Indie apps are now cash-grab casual mini game-type craaps. It didn't always used to be like that. I've been around the scene a long time, so I should know. There were always craaps, of course, but there was a time when there were many more quality indie devs. There used to be a lot more devs period, makes all qualities of game. Most are pretty obviously gone. They could not remain competitive within the "race to the bottom" economy.

Uh, didn't Mission Europa come out in March, and Aralon in December 2010?

Major developers continue to strip out more and more content so that they can, in turn, justify selling their games for cheaper and cheaper. Many high quality EA and Gameloft games include roughly 2 hours of base gameplay, which is sad. It's sad that Dead Space is 2 hours long. It's sad that EA felt at some point compelled to sell Dead Space for .99c. That is legitimately a $40 game on the DS, 3DS, PSP, NGP.

Poor, poor EA. :rolleyes:

If you think there is a significant difference from pirating a PC copy of Dead Space, or buy the iOS version of Dead Space for .99c, there's not as much difference as you'd like to believe. Legally, there is. Sure. Morally and ethically, not so much. You know what you are doing is wrong. You know that you are damaging the gaming community. Yet, you do not care. You care only about your own instant gradification, the long-term consquences of your actions be damned.

I'm trying to respect your opinion but this last paragraph is simply nonsense. You are equating paying $.99 for an iOS game to illegally downloading software. What am I supposed to do, buy Dead Space and send a check for $20 to EA!? And for the record, a lot of us - me included - bought Dead Space in January for $7. If you've been around so darn long you'd realize that EA's pricing is a roller coaster ride.

[natedogg213]

However, your comments in this thread really don't suggest that FFIII is the only price you're not okay about.

If you can find any other mentioning of price on any other games, I'd be willing to admit my error. It's easy for me to remember that FFIII is the only one because it is the highest price for a iOS game that I've encountered!

but do you deny that a third to a half of the comments of nearly every release thread of a game priced over a dollar do contain these comments? Just who are you defending here?

I suppose it depends on which release thread you are perusing. I don't seem to be seeing these price complaints bogging down threads that I go in. But at the same time, I tend to avoid IAPs and MMORPGs, where this most likely happens. I'm not here to defend anything or anyone. My experience with iphone gaming has been a joy! But that doesn't mean I won't express my opinion from time to time.

[backtothis]

If you can find any other mentioning of price on any other games, I'd be willing to admit my error. It's easy for me to remember that FFIII is the only one because it is the highest price for a iOS game that I've encountered!

I suppose it depends on which release thread you are perusing. I don't seem to be seeing these price complaints bogging down threads that I go in. But at the same time, I tend to avoid IAPs and MMORPGs, where this most likely happens. I'm not here to defend anything or anyone. My experience with iphone gaming has been a joy! But that doesn't mean I won't express my opinion from time to time.

Fair enough. Being the lazy guy that I am, I'll take your word for it. Yeah, the iOS is definitely a damn great thing. Let's not keep going back to FFIII in any case. There'll be a sale on it as soon as FFT: TWoL is out since FFIII recently fell off the charts. Just get it then.

[backtothis]

If you think there is a significant difference from pirating a PC copy of Dead Space, or buy the iOS version of Dead Space for .99c, there's not as much difference as you'd like to believe. Legally, there is. Sure. Morally and ethically, not so much. You know what you are doing is wrong. You know that you are damaging the gaming community. Yet, you do not care. You care only about your own instant gradification, the long-term consquences of your actions be damned.

Although that copy of Dead Space sells for 6.99, it's worth (in comparision the gaming marketplace as a whole, and not just the iOS marketplace by itself, in a vaccum) 19.99, mimium. And you just bought it for a dollar. That's the type of selfish attitude that will and has put countless developers out of business. EA can handle it. EA can also handle you stealing the PC version for nothing. It's not going to put them out of business. But that doesn't make it right.

I think this really is a bit of a stretch. It's indeed an interesting sentiment seeing something like Dead Space drop down to a dollar, but like you said, EA really could care less. In fact, EA was honestly the key player in spearheading the race to bottom. Gameloft only followed suit so they wouldn't be terribly beaten down by the direct competition offered by EA, which eventually happened anyways. It's true that many developers have left the iOS market, but I really don't believe that there are less quality games now. It honestly feels more like for every developer that left the market, two more joined. It does feel selfish when you portray it that way, or when you see people flooding threads of games that were just released with comments like "I'll get this when it's a dollar," but if just keep it to themselves, I think it's fine. It's just when people seem to brag about the kind of thing that disturbs me more than anything. Also, arguing for a moral point of view won't get us anywhere. Frankly, some people just don't care. We all know it's wrong.

[natedogg213]

Fair enough. Being the lazy guy that I am, I'll take your word for it. Yeah, the iOS is definitely a damn great thing. Let's not keep going back to FFIII in any case. There'll be a sale on it as soon as FFT: TWoL is out since FFIII recently fell off the charts. Just get it then.

Ah, good ol Final Fantasy Tactics, that brings me back to the PS One days. Great game...Ha, I always think of the text during the "cut scenes" - how it would scroll across the screen at a snail's pace. I'm done with my FFIII complaints, it's kind of turned into old news. I want some FFT and Chrono Trigger.

[yongkykun]

Chrono Trigger, for me. Heck I'll pay the same price as FF3 if they were to release the iOS version in 3D. But that's asking too much, I reckon. But if they do release it with the same 2D sprite graphics (revamped for higher res ala SoM) at the same price of FF3, then screw it. I'm happy with my SNES (which still works after all these years, unlike iDevices which has the lifespan of a deer living close to a highway).

I agree with natedogg213, and would like to remind these sell-them-higher fanboys that iPod Touch and iPhone didn't start out as a gaming platform and the platform has been embraced as one only recently. Back then, the competition is healthy, because devs are trying to figure out the best selling price for their apps as those who start the trend get to decide the general pricing trend. In two years, it has become somewhat established that the pricing of apps in the App Store is somewhere between free to $9.99 (US dollars, as I've pointed out, we who live in Australia pay higher due to the oh-so-fair Apple's currency policy). Along came big developers, we didn't invite them, did we? We were happy playing wee games for less than $5 a piece. Crappy as they may sound, some of them were quite enjoyable and some were even made to look, feel, and play like a console game, but these big devs started to push the limit of the hardware, surely Apple is more than happy to oblige which is why in later years, we see more powerful hardware and features being introduced to the iDevices. Then what comes next is you people wanting more and more big devs to come and make iPhones (initially a phone and organizer hybrid) and iPod Touch (entertainment iPod, iPhone without the phone) into a proper gaming platform.

BUT! Look at the reality of things, please! Is there a way for you to keep your saved games in your iDevices? Maybe in the future, we don't know. As it is, we don't have that kind of feature and what kind of a gaming platform doesn't keep save game files? If it was a nokia organizer, thing wouldn't be the same, right? Apple got extremely lucky with iDevices and you sell-them-higher-please-oh-developers type of gamers don't realize that you're like bots sending more money to Apple and bigger devs while all of those pioneering devs who started the pricing trend on iOS a few years earlier die out and forgotten.

So this is why I don't understand why people can't see that they have fallen victim to a classic case of capitalism. Some even think that capitalism is the best thing that ever been invented by humanity! Sad... I'm sad...

[ImNoSuperMan]

#Experts!!

[Vovin]

Fartz!

[uaq]

I am really interested in Final Fantasy 3. And while the price is not the only thing stopping me from buying it right now. It's a big factor. Sure, I believe that we as consumers are developing a weird sense of value from such cheap games, and that we should not forget how much we used to pay for similar quality in the past.

I think the worst thing though, is it makes us value a game less. I would feel far more obliged to play through and make the most of a game I have spent a lot of money on over one that I picked up in a bargain bin for a couple of dollars. Though despite this, I've paid nearly $100 for a game (standard price in Australia at the time) for a game I played for a few days and threw in the cupboard. I've paid $17 for MGS:2 from a bargain bin and played it for months.

Segways aside, I hope that developers continue to feel comfortable putting a lot of effort into their games and pricing them accordingly, as there are many buyers out there willing to pay more for good games.

[Eli]

Segways aside, I hope that developers continue to feel comfortable putting a lot of effort into their games and pricing them accordingly, as there are many buyers out there willing to pay more for good games.

http://mcdorky.net/lj/gifs/ad-gob_segway.gif

[Neehan]

I am really interested in Final Fantasy 3. And while the price is not the only thing stopping me from buying it right now. It's a big factor. Sure, I believe that we as consumers are developing a weird sense of value from such cheap games, and that we should not forget how much we used to pay for similar quality in the past.

I think the worst thing though, is it makes us value a game less. I would feel far more obliged to play through and make the most of a game I have spent a lot of money on over one that I picked up in a bargain bin for a couple of dollars. Though despite this, I've paid nearly $100 for a game (standard price in Australia at the time) for a game I played for a few days and threw in the cupboard. I've paid $17 for MGS:2 from a bargain bin and played it for months.

Segways aside, I hope that developers continue to feel comfortable putting a lot of effort into their games and pricing them accordingly, as there are many buyers out there willing to pay more for good games.
Why don't you just buy this instead?

http://cgi.ebay.com/FINAL-FANTASY-III-3-Complete-SNES-Super-Nintendo-/160567656244?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item256293ff34#ht_902wt_905

[yemi]

Why don't you just buy this instead?

http://cgi.ebay.com/FINAL-FANTASY-III-3-Complete-SNES-Super-Nintendo-/160567656244?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item256293ff34#ht_902wt_905



Because he wants it on his iphone/ipod.

[Teknikal]

Well I bought credit mainly for the Galaxy of Fire 2 add on which I think is DLC done how it should be and I've no problem with DLC when it adds proper expansions, but I also just bought Final Fantasy 3 I have no problems paying that much for a quality title in fact I have probably most of the higher price games on the app store including the cave shooters, chaos rings (which I do actually dislike first square game I think I've hated).

For me price is no object if it's a game I consider worth it but when low quality titles try to charge the same I'll be skipping them.

[x999x]

Out of this MMO, no. Every other MMO I played though, there was tons to do at level cap. I'm playing less and less each day. Can't receive a single email response to any of my questions.

you paid 6.99...
I'm sorry, I just have to LOL.

[dacalo]

you paid 6.99...
I'm sorry, I just have to LOL.

Seriously. I don't know what it is about iOS gaming community but the perception is that if it's over $0.99 then it's too expensive. There is this unwarranted entitlement I see everywhere. How dare they don't have end game content!! I paid $7!!! Oh NO!!! How dare they do not regularly update the game!! I paid $0.99!! Seriously people, it's economics, so anything that costs less will have less content than more expensive counterpart (console games/PC games).

[Kylescorpion]

Seriously. I don't know what it is about iOS gaming community but the perception is that if it's over $0.99 then it's too expensive. There is this unwarranted entitlement I see everywhere. How dare they don't have end game content!! I paid $7!!! Oh NO!!! How dare they do not regularly update the game!! I paid $0.99!! Seriously people, it's economics, so anything that costs less will have less content than more expensive counterpart (console games/PC games).

While I agree with you. This game is very different then any other on the market so it does requires updates and constant maintenance and attention otherwise people won't renew their subs.

[backtothis]

While I agree with you. This game is very different then any other on the market so it does requires updates and constant maintenance and attention otherwise people won't renew their subs.

I think you're missing his point. He's all for reasonable prices (aka not $0.99), not complaining about the current price of the game..

[C.Hannum]

Seriously. I don't know what it is about iOS gaming community but the perception is that if it's over $0.99 then it's too expensive. There is this unwarranted entitlement I see everywhere. How dare they don't have end game content!! I paid $7!!! Oh NO!!!While I won't argue that there isn't some unwarranted expectations on the part of iOS gamers, this game is downright expensive as far as an Asian developed MMORPG goes. I can go and grab half a dozen free to play MMOs for my PC right now (have a couple installed at the moment) - better graphics, more classes, more content, more equipment, tighter controls, etc. for free. They launch and maintain these games purely through IAP. Not that any of them ever held my attention for more than a couple of months, but the point is that I've downloaded and played at least half a dozen games over the past few years that took up about 20GB of bandwidth and never paid a dime..

Now, if *free* can do better than $7 + IAP, then, yeah, there is room for valid criticism when unless Gameloft just fell off the turnip truck they knew as surely as the sun comes up that some people would be trying to ding max level in a matter of days. 60 levels of killing/tagging/delivering quests does NOT make for a successful MMO and you can't just toss that off as "it's only been out a week" because nobody should have even gone live with a game where you could ding max level in a matter of days largely just doing kill/tag/deliver/fetch quests.

For the money, no, it's not a big deal. I've got $12 in this game and I've had a good time with it, and because I am taking my time across four alts I hope that by the time I am reaching higher levels there will be more to do, but I would also say the writing is on the wall: If the game had been designed with oodles of endgame content in mind that's just currently unfinished and/or unreleased it probably wouldn't have launched with largely enough basic quests to get to the end, there would have been some sort of wall where players in the mid 40s would be complaining about how it was just a big grind after you hit Level 41 or whatever.

[stlredbird]

While I won't argue that there isn't some unwarranted expectations on the part of iOS gamers, this game is downright expensive as far as an Asian developed MMORPG goes. I can go and grab half a dozen free to play MMOs for my PC right now (have a couple installed at the moment) - better graphics, more classes, more content, more equipment, tighter controls, etc. for free. They launch and maintain these games purely through IAP. Not that any of them ever held my attention for more than a couple of months, but the point is that I've downloaded and played at least half a dozen games over the past few years that took up about 20GB of bandwidth and never paid a dime..

Now, if *free* can do better than $7 + IAP, then, yeah, there is room for valid criticism when unless Gameloft just fell off the turnip truck they knew as surely as the sun comes up that some people would be trying to ding max level in a matter of days. 60 levels of killing/tagging/delivering quests does NOT make for a successful MMO and you can't just toss that off as "it's only been out a week" because nobody should have even gone live with a game where you could ding max level in a matter of days largely just doing kill/tag/deliver/fetch quests.

For the money, no, it's not a big deal. I've got $12 in this game and I've had a good time with it, and because I am taking my time across four alts I hope that by the time I am reaching higher levels there will be more to do, but I would also say the writing is on the wall: If the game had been designed with oodles of endgame content in mind that's just currently unfinished and/or unreleased it probably wouldn't have launched with largely enough basic quests to get to the end, there would have been some sort of wall where players in the mid 40s would be complaining about how it was just a big grind after you hit Level 41 or whatever.

Well all I can say is that this game is a continuous work in progress, as are all MMOs, and I'm banking on new content including endgame to be released as time goes on, hopefully sooner than later. They certainly know they didn't release a 'complete' game as can be seen with from day one there were PVP Arena NPCs saying "coming soon."

As far as value for your buck, I've spent a lot more on iOS titles that I don't play for more than 15 minutes and just delete from my device. And though I don't have a lot of time to play any games, the short time I've played this (probably 7 hours total) I've loved every second of and can't wait to come back for more. Hell I'd hate to add up all the console titles I bought over the years that weren't nearly the game that this is. I always think of when I got Spy Hunter back around 1985 for the NES, that was $50! And you want to talk about no end game content! Ha! Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the game but that was even shallow by 1985 standards.

Anyway really enjoying the game. Taking my time with it, mostly bc I don't have much time, and can't wait to see what the future brings!

[C.Hannum]

I'm banking on new content including endgame to be released as time goes on, hopefully sooner than later.I am taking a wait and see approach. It's Gameloft, so banking on them to deliver significant post-shipment support and content seems a foolish bet at best, be a lot smarter betting on server population crashes as months go by and nothing of substance has changed. If they do deliver I'll be pleasantly surprised, but if they don't, well, it's what I expected when I bought it so I won't be shocked.


As far as value for your buck, I've spent a lot more on iOS titles that I don't play for more than 15 minutes and just delete from my device.Really not the point. There are devs out there that are putting out more expensive to develop and maintain MMOGs that are completely free to play without the "no trades, no mail, no nothing" limitation of O&C's free play. These devs depend on IAP, mostly of the vanity variety, to fund the games, so regardless of whether $7 and up is a completely reasonable cost for the fun and time invested in the abstract, the fact remains that it's not a valid defense for the lack of structured content. They've launched O&C with an initial purchase cost, a subscription fee AND a fair amount of extra IAP options - by the standards of lower tier MMOG standards, that's actually claiming a moderately high bar for the game and its content.


Anyway really enjoying the game. Taking my time with it, mostly bc I don't have much time, and can't wait to see what the future brings!I'm enjoying it too, just pointing out that critiquing the game for the complete lack of structured content and endgame content is a more than valid criticism. Compared to other less ambitious MMOGs across all platforms, O&C is charging plenty to have launched with more content in place than they did.

[Xexist]

Really not the point. There are devs out there that are putting out more expensive to develop and maintain MMOGs that are completely free to play without the "no trades, no mail, no nothing" limitation of O&C's free play..

They do offer one thing the other MMO's dont. The ability to play while you are on the toilet.

[C.Hannum]

They do offer one thing the other MMO's dont. The ability to play while you are on the toilet.I know, just worried this may turn out to be the strongest point of O&C :D

[stlredbird]

They do offer one thing the other MMO's dont. The ability to play while you are on the toilet.

True, and also points to a larger point. You CAN'T compare this to desktop MMORPGs. You can compare it to games like Yslandia and Pocket Legends, which I own both and have tried on several occasions to play and enjoy, and this game blows them out of the water in my opinion.

Standing back and looking at it, this is a huge gamble for gameloft. So I don't begrudge them for not spending the immense time and money in developing absolutely every piece of content, end game pvp and what not for the initial release. They put together a mostly complete game with a lot of potential and room for improvement and expansion to test the waters.

So far they have at least done server maintenance twice in less than 2 weeks as far as I know and gameloft employees are active on the official forums, so at least we know they didn't do their usual release the game into the wild and forget about it. So far anyway.

[backtothis]

This is the iOS. You can compare the game to MMORPGS on portable gaming devices, and no further than that. This game honestly makes everything in the same genre look like a total joke. I don't see how it's possible to say $7 is not a steal for the best online game on the iOS. I buy a new $15 giftcard every week, and it's safe to say I've spent more time on this game than everything combined in the past few weeks in the past few days. I think I've gotten my money's worth by far. Like someone else said, more than half my purchases are deleted within 15 minutes. Plus, I don't see what you're expecting from the first build of a completely online game. It's been 8 days since it's been out, so if you're already level 60 and want end game content, you really should take a break or at least play a different game.

[C.Hannum]

True, and also points to a larger point. You CAN'T compare this to desktop MMORPGs.Yes, you can, particularly if it's when talking *content* and *price*.

It's kind of silly that the same crowd who wants to pimpslap the sort who thumps their chest that the game they paid $2 for 3 months ago is now free dammit! due to their lack of perspective is also the same crowd who wants to suddenly pretend an MMO exists in a vacuum by virtue of being on iOS. Selective perspective, brilliant ;)

[Greg G]

True, and also points to a larger point. You CAN'T compare this to desktop MMORPGs. You can compare it to games like Yslandia and Pocket Legends, which I own both and have tried on several occasions to play and enjoy, and this game blows them out of the water in my opinion.

Standing back and looking at it, this is a huge gamble for gameloft. So I don't begrudge them for not spending the immense time and money in developing absolutely every piece of content, end game pvp and what not for the initial release. They put together a mostly complete game with a lot of potential and room for improvement and expansion to test the waters.

So far they have at least done server maintenance twice in less than 2 weeks as far as I know and gameloft employees are active on the official forums, so at least we know they didn't do their usual release the game into the wild and forget about it. So far anyway.

I'm hopeful that they will grow the world as well. I think that they wanted to test the waters before going all in to see what kind of response they get. Hopefully they are satisfied that they have something big on their hands and it is worth supporting. I know I am having a great time!

-Greg

[Jongjungbu]

Yes, you can, particularly if it's when talking *content* and *price*.

It's kind of silly that the same crowd who wants to pimpslap the sort who thumps their chest that the game they paid $2 for 3 months ago is now free dammit! due to their lack of perspective is also the same crowd who wants to suddenly pretend an MMO exists in a vacuum by virtue of being on iOS. Selective perspective, brilliant ;)

It doesn't exist in a vacuum here, but the fact of the matter is traditional MMOs of the scale found on a PC that are not small-time studios/indie are what people *are* comparing O&C too. And those titles they are comparing to started out with much larger budgets and timeframes ($50 initial cost + $15/month) whether they are purely IAP now or not. You can do a lot more with a lot more money and a bigger team, regardless of the platform.

[projectmoonlightcafe]

It doesn't exist in a vacuum here, but the fact of the matter is traditional MMOs of the scale found on a PC that are not small-time studios/indie are what people *are* comparing O&C too. And those titles they are comparing to started out with much larger budgets and timeframes ($50 initial cost + $15/month) whether they are purely IAP now or not. You can do a lot more with a lot more money and a bigger team, regardless of the platform.

I remember WoW wasn't all that the first week it was out either...:D

[backtothis]

Yes, you can, particularly if it's when talking *content* and *price*.

It's kind of silly that the same crowd who wants to pimpslap the sort who thumps their chest that the game they paid $2 for 3 months ago is now free dammit! due to their lack of perspective is also the same crowd who wants to suddenly pretend an MMO exists in a vacuum by virtue of being on iOS. Selective perspective, brilliant ;)

Considering my total spent on iTunes is now past $2000 and that I've never complained about a price drop before, no. QFT kthx.

[Greg G]

Yes, you can, particularly if it's when talking *content* and *price*.

It's kind of silly that the same crowd who wants to pimpslap the sort who thumps their chest that the game they paid $2 for 3 months ago is now free dammit! due to their lack of perspective is also the same crowd who wants to suddenly pretend an MMO exists in a vacuum by virtue of being on iOS. Selective perspective, brilliant ;)

You can compare but the games are not on equal footing. The PC is a much more powerful system with much higher resolution screen and a keyboard. I think they did an amazing job of translating the experience to a touch screen. Much better than those that have tried to do the same thing for a gaming console I think. Still need to wait on the richer content and understand your point about free games having more end game but I'm thinking the end game will come if the $ flow in. Gameloft will make a business decision and I'm hoping that the game will be popular enough that it can support continued development. The framework is certainly there for amazing things.

[C.Hannum]

Considering my total spent on iTunes is now past $2000 and that I've never complained about a price drop before, noNot what I said at all, in fact, the opposite of what I said.

You are indeed the sort who bitches about people complaining about games going free and you are indeed the sort who is claiming it's unfair to compare this game to the larger market.

So, take your smarmy kthx and direct it somewhere more applicable.

If it's fair to say someone is being a ninny for posting self-righteous rants about how a dev has wounded them and their honor over dropping the price on an iOS game when these same games would cost $10 or $20 or another platform, it's equally fair to point out you can get better developed MMOs for $0 on other platforms.

----

Perspective is exactly what it's supposed to be, you step back and you consider things coldly and without emotion. O&C, for an iOS game, looks great, no question. Value wise, for an iOS game, it's competitive. Content wise, for an iOS game, it's competent if not outstanding. BUT, you can't just consider iOS in whether it's a good MMOG or a good value for an MMOG, because there are half a dozen games that will never cost you a penny that will give you a better MMOG experience out there right now for the downloading if you consider MMOGs outside of iOS.

So, as the best MMOG I can play on iOS, award to O&C. Best MMOG I can play on the toilet without awkwardly balancing a laptop, award to O&C. Best MMOG I can play for a year for less than one month of WoW or Rift costs, well, O&C wouldn't even make the ballot. That is simply being honest.

[C.Hannum]

And those titles they are comparing to started out with much larger budgets and timeframes ($50 initial cost + $15/month) whether they are purely IAP now or not.Please, go download Forsaken World or 4Story, play for a few weeks, and then post.

Arguing from a position that doesn't exist in reality is not the best stand to take. These aren't small time and indie studios, and these games were developed and launched as free games, and they are definitely a bigger endeavor than O&C.

My point, which people seem to be going out of their way to miss is exactly what PA noticed right off: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/5/2/

I'm not saying O&C is a bad game, or that it's insanely expensive, or that it sucks because it doesn't have the sparkly graphics of a 5 y.o. PC title, but I am saying it isn't worthy of the sort of blanket free pass that so many are willing to lob its way because they are so excited by the novelty of a game like this on their i-Device.

[backtothis]

@C.H

Um, if the mods and admins here consider the type of people you listed as whiny and idiotic knuckleheads, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say these people aren't welcome here. This place is for discussing games, not complaining about pocket change. Keep that shit to youself. Um, also, it's been established many times that you do not compare iOS games to consoles besides other handhelds. With that said, O&C doesn't just dominate the iOS, it destroys anything similar offered on the Android, PSP, and DS. The point of being here is not playing on your PC and consoles. Have fun bringing your PC everywhere.

[stlredbird]

Please, go download Forsaken World or 4Story, play for a few weeks, and then post.

Arguing from a position that doesn't exist in reality is not the best stand to take. These aren't small time and indie studios, and these games were developed and launched as free games, and they are definitely a bigger endeavor than O&C.

These games were also developed for a much more established and a much larger marketplace.

[Greg G]

I'm not saying O&C is a bad game, or that it's insanely expensive, or that it sucks because it doesn't have the sparkly graphics of a 5 y.o. PC title, but I am saying it isn't worthy of the sort of blanket free pass that so many are willing to lob its way because they are so excited by the novelty of a game like this on their i-Device.

I think what you are missing is that some of us don't use computers for games. It's like saying that the ps3 has a better game. It doesn't matter because I don't have a ps3. I do have a PC and I used to play EQ & WoW on my PC but since I got my iPad I find myself only wanting to play games on it so what exists for the PC is really not relevant to me (though I may break down for Diablo 3). I don't think that O&C is getting a free pass but rather I think it is an eye opener that a game like this is available on a mobile platform and it is done well enough to bring hope for rich content in the future (giving GL the benefit of a doubt and as I've posted above, I think the business case exists for them).

I'm having a great time playing and I'm not stuck in my basement office on my PC so that is really what matters to me.

[MidianGTX]

I'm having a great time playing and I'm not stuck in my basement office on my PC so that is really what matters to me.

You just need to set up your PC in a room with some sunshine dude.

They do offer one thing the other MMO's dont. The ability to play while you are on the toilet.

True, but this also leads one to question what he/she is doing with their life and may possibly throw them into a deep depression.

[C.Hannum]

I think what you are missing is that some of us don't use computers for games.No, not what I'm missing. Nor was my discussion about the pricing of O&C itself in any way, but I see the mods have moved it to their "You're a whiny turd" thread, so I guess I might as well take the hint after this post and stop trying to help blind people see.

MMOGs are a distinct genre of game. They have been around for well over a decade now. There are pricing, content, and baseline mechanics standards that have been established over that time. No matter what the platform, people will judge your game by how good of an MMOG you have delivered taking all factors into account of which cost and platform are only contributors.

My point, which people seem so gosh darned in a hurry to skip over, is that O&C fails at delivering the content for its price on ANY platform. It may or may not become a worthy game over time, but excusing the complete lack of normally included endgame activities, grouping mechanics, class diversity, etc., simply because it's on iOS is to miss the forest for the trees.

If somebody made a Super Mario styled Platformer and didn't include jumping would you say, "Well, it's on iOS...."?

I'm more than a little perplexed at the lack of objectivity at the game itself.

As an iOS title, O&C may indeed be mind blowing and push the envelope at what we thought was possible, but as a game in the abstract from its particular genre, it's acceptable to maybe just slightly above average at best.

[stlredbird]

While I won't argue that there isn't some unwarranted expectations on the part of iOS gamers, this game is downright expensive as far as an Asian developed MMORPG goes. I can go and grab half a dozen free to play MMOs for my PC right now (have a couple installed at the moment) - better graphics, more classes, more content, more equipment, tighter controls, etc. for free. They launch and maintain these games purely through IAP. Not that any of them ever held my attention for more than a couple of months, but the point is that I've downloaded and played at least half a dozen games over the past few years that took up about 20GB of bandwidth and never paid a dime..

Now, if *free* can do better than $7 + IAP, then, yeah, there is room for valid criticism when unless Gameloft just fell off the turnip truck they knew as surely as the sun comes up that some people would be trying to ding max level in a matter of days. 60 levels of killing/tagging/delivering quests does NOT make for a successful MMO and you can't just toss that off as "it's only been out a week" because nobody should have even gone live with a game where you could ding max level in a matter of days largely just doing kill/tag/deliver/fetch quests.

For the money, no, it's not a big deal. I've got $12 in this game and I've had a good time with it, and because I am taking my time across four alts I hope that by the time I am reaching higher levels there will be more to do, but I would also say the writing is on the wall: If the game had been designed with oodles of endgame content in mind that's just currently unfinished and/or unreleased it probably wouldn't have launched with largely enough basic quests to get to the end, there would have been some sort of wall where players in the mid 40s would be complaining about how it was just a big grind after you hit Level 41 or whatever.

Almost your entire original critical argument is based on pricing! "If 'X' game can be free and contain all this then O&C should have it for $7."

Again I maintain this release is GL testing the waters of the marketplace. If the reception is good and servers stay full and money is coming in then they will put the time and money into it to add those other common features of an MMO.

Now if a couple months go by and there hasn't been a major update or at least an announcement of one with details then I will gladly come back here and lick your boots :p

[Vovin]

No, not what I'm missing. Nor was my discussion about the pricing of O&C itself in any way, but I see the mods have moved it to their "You're a whiny turd" thread, so I guess I might as well take the hint after this post and stop trying to help blind people see.

MMOGs are a distinct genre of game. They have been around for well over a decade now. There are pricing, content, and baseline mechanics standards that have been established over that time. No matter what the platform, people will judge your game by how good of an MMOG you have delivered taking all factors into account of which cost and platform are only contributors.

My point, which people seem so gosh darned in a hurry to skip over, is that O&C fails at delivering the content for its price on ANY platform. It may or may not become a worthy game over time, but excusing the complete lack of normally included endgame activities, grouping mechanics, class diversity, etc., simply because it's on iOS is to miss the forest for the trees.

If somebody made a Super Mario styled Platformer and didn't include jumping would you say, "Well, it's on iOS...."?

I'm more than a little perplexed at the lack of objectivity at the game itself.

As an iOS title, O&C may indeed be mind blowing and push the envelope at what we thought was possible, but as a game in the abstract from its particular genre, it's acceptable to maybe just slightly above average at best.


1. You sound like a broken record,
2. you sound like a broken record,
3. you sound like a broken record,
4. you are repeating yourself,
5. your alwaysthesame opinions get boring.

Get the idea?

Don't like it? Don't buy it. For heaven's sake: don't discuss.

[Eli]

1. You sound like a broken record,
2. you sound like a broken record,
3. you sound like a broken record,
4. you are repeating yourself,
5. your alwaysthesame opinions get boring.

Get the idea?

Don't like it? Don't buy it. For heaven's sake: don't discuss.

This entire thread is a broken record!

[C.Hannum]

You sound like a broken recordWell, when you keep telling people the sky is blue and they keep yelling back, "no, tomatoes are red", you assume there might be someway of conveying that isn't what you said since surely somebody understands English and constructive critique. However, I'm starting to assume that isn't the case. I feel like I've fallen for arguing with the blind men and the elephant in this discussion.

[stlredbird]

Well, when you keep telling people the sky is blue and they keep yelling back, "no, tomatoes are red", you assume there might be someway of conveying that isn't what you said since surely somebody understands English and constructive critique. However, I'm starting to assume that isn't the case. I feel like I've fallen for arguing with the blind men and the elephant in this discussion.

Perhaps it is your communication skills that are lacking?

[MidianGTX]

Well, when you keep telling people the sky is blue and they keep yelling back, "no, tomatoes are red", you assume there might be someway of conveying that isn't what you said since surely somebody understands English and constructive critique. However, I'm starting to assume that isn't the case. I feel like I've fallen for arguing with the blind men and the elephant in this discussion.

I dunno if anyone's noticed, but both of those are correct. The sky is blue and tomatoes are red. Since you're both right, how about you put it down to the fact you have different priorities on what makes a good game? Right now it's not even a discussion over price, it's just an argument over how good the game is, yet surely someone as intelligent as yourself would know that different people have different tastes and opinions... right?

[C.Hannum]

I dunno if anyone's noticed, but both of those are correct. The sky is blue and tomatoes are red.I did notice, hence my illustrative example. Doesn't make them related, though, hence, my illustrative example ;)

Right now it's not even a discussion over priceSee, that's the bizarre part, it never was a discussion over price except in the abstract, so I am particularly amused it all got dumped in this trash bin thread.

...it's just an argument over how good the game is, yet surely someone as intelligent as yourself would know that different people have different tastes and opinions... right?When the only point I was ever trying to get across in this whole kerfuffle is that it was valid to critique the game for lack of endgame content even as soon as a week after launch because of the style and cost of the game and then backed up the assertion with supporting evidence, I don't even begin to understand how it became an issue.

-----

At any rate, I opened up a slot in the Touch Arcade guild for someone more aligned with the powers that be since I'm obviously not the best fit.

[Eli]

At any rate, I opened up a slot in the Touch Arcade guild for someone more aligned with the powers that be since I'm obviously not the best fit.

Well, it's official, TouchArcade is a real guild. We've had our first forum drama rage quit, we're bonafide.

[stlredbird]

Well, it's official, TouchArcade is a real guild. We've had our first forum drama rage quit, we're bonafide.

Ha! Guild chat rage quits were always funny in WoW.

[backtothis]

It's great that all the self-annoited "experts" on App Store pricing and the "worth" of games always end up at this point. Every time.

They are the experts ... they know what true value is ... and, in their near-infinite grace, they will help us, if only we would just listen! Gosh darn it to heck!

The voice of reason. Thank you.

[ak47killa]

Sooo..... Does anyone think Canabalt is Worth $2.99 ? LMAO

[C.Hannum]

Well, it's official, TouchArcade is a real guild. We've had our first forum drama rage quit, we're bonafide.
This isn't a rage quit, just a "sigh, I give up" quit. Figured someone might appreciate the notice there was a slot available.

Really, if you think it's a rage quit or I'm some sort of self appointed expert on value that doesn't get what you're so clued in on, you never even bothered reading my posts; just entertained yourself poking fun by deliberately not listening to someone else.

[backtothis]

Believe me, I read your posts. We've seen the same bullshit around here enough times in the past few years. There's a reason we shoot it down immediately. We've heard it all before. It's not like your argument only applies to MMORPGs. Plenty of people have come and gone through TA.

[dumaz1000]

Canabalt is a flash game with minimal content. I think it's missing the point entirely to argue whether something like that is worth $3 or only $1. There is a far bigger picture to deal with here. Like games that take a 1.5 years to develop, and yet stand virtually no chance of reembursing fairly the dev for the incredible amount of time, and possibly money, he has invested into the project.

Virtually all indie games are more or less like Canabalt for this very reason. It's the only way indie devs can turn a profit. Make cheap games and sell cheap games cheap. It's all a bunch of crap, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't download those games for free, much less pay the .99c that most of them sell for. I understand why devs do it though. What other choice do they have? My impression is that, in terms of mainstream sells, Aralon and Mission Europa didn't do so well.

[MidianGTX]

Canabalt is a flash game with minimal content. I think it's missing the point entirely to argue whether something like that is worth $3 or only $1. There is a far bigger picture to deal with here. Like games that take a 1.5 years to develop, and yet stand virtually no chance of reembursing fairly the dev for the incredible amount of time, and possibly money, he has invested into the project.

Virtually all indie games are more or less like Canabalt for this very reason. It's the only way indie devs can turn a profit. Make cheap games and sell cheap games cheap. It's all a bunch of crap, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't download those games for free, much less pay the .99c that most of them sell for. I understand why devs do it though. What other choice do they have? My impression is that, in terms of mainstream sells, Aralon and Mission Europa didn't do so well.

I'm pretty sure you just said all indie games are a bunch of crap, which would kinda make you the #1 enemy of the entire forum.

[yongkykun]

So, do people post here or are all of these posts came from some other threads? I'm beginning to think that this thread is a glorified version of recycle bin.

Anway, not complaining. I can rant when I want all I want.

[backtothis]

So, do people post here or are all of these posts came from some other threads? I'm beginning to think that this thread is a glorified version of recycle bin.

Anway, not complaining. I can rant when I want all I want.

Both, yeah.

[Vovin]

I'm pretty sure you just said all indie games are a bunch of crap, which would kinda make you the #1 enemy of the entire forum.

Now it's getting really, really ridiculous here and this dumaz post was serious trolling.
Yeah, I understood him in the same way.
Funny, that games like Legendary Wars, Dungeon Raid, Infinity Control, PathPix and dozens of other high class titles are suddenly marked as crap, not even worth the download.

Enemy #1 would fit. I just wonder why dumaz1000 fell on his head so hard and hasn't visited a doctor asap.

[STYJ]

I just realised dumaz is not only pronounced du-maz but also dum-az :o

[gunxsword]

Well, it's official, TouchArcade is a real guild. We've had our first forum drama rage quit, we're bonafide.

I'm actually quite new to this forum, being active only since the last month (thanks to Mission Europa :D). Can someone fill me up on this rage quit drama? :D

Just contributing to the discussion: I personally wouldn't think that Canabalt is worth its current price based solely on the fact that there are equal, if not better alternatives available to fit my tastes.
The point I'm making here is that games always have their own target audiences, and people should equally decide if the game is in their opinion, worth the price.

[Vovin]

I just realised dumaz is not only pronounced du-maz but also dum-az :o


Kudos!

I just hope that none of our indie devs are reading this. Embarrassing.
It just got more and more stupid with this confused Hannum dude... until dumaz1000 placed the crown of idiocy on this threads head.

[C.Hannum]

We've heard it all before. It's not like your argument only applies to MMORPGs.Really? Because I think you didn't actually comprehend my posts, because if you had and you were still dumping on me as much as you are then you must agree with the following statement (the negation of my points):

Even though O&C was developed by a team of Chinese developers experienced in producing full fledged MMOGs that are free to play and funded purely by IAP, it is completely invalid and wrong to criticize the lack of end game content or greater diversity in a pay to play with IAP launch solely because it is on iOS.

My position was not a general argument, it's not even applicable to anything except whether it's valid to critique Order & Chaos. Heck, it's not even a critique of Order & Chaos itself, merely a defense of the ability to genuinely critique it for the limited state it launched in because of the specific facts about the game, the genre, and its particular development.

So, no, you haven't heard this before over the past few years because the game hasn't even been out two weeks.

[Vovin]

Really? Because I think you didn't actually comprehend my posts, because if you had and you were still dumping on me as much as you are then you must agree with the following statement (the negation of my points):



My position was not a general argument, it's not even applicable to anything except whether it's valid to critique Order & Chaos. Heck, it's not even a critique of Order & Chaos itself, merely a defense of the ability to genuinely critique it for the limited state it launched in because of the specific facts about the game, the genre, and its particular development.

So, no, you haven't heard this before over the past few years because the game hasn't even been out two weeks.



Nonsense.

Also, you're off topic. This is the thread about price discussions. :D

[C.Hannum]

Can someone fill me up on this rage quit drama? :D
Short version:

Someone critiqued Order & Chaos for the basic level of its content and lack of endgame content.

I defended that it was a valid critique of the game.

Some posters insisted it was not a valid critique of the game solely because it was on iOS.

I layed out with specific counter examples why it was indeed a valid critique, iOS or not.

No one posting understood my posts, I made unsuccessful attempts to clarify why it was a valid critique, no one posting understood my posts...

Site admin and a few old timers decided without basis that I was making some sort of whining post about the cost of the game, moved all the discussion to the trashbin thread and proceeded to tell me they know what I said better than myself.

Since these people are the guild leaders, didn't feel like I wanted to be working with people who would treat me like that, so I decided I'd free up the slot for someone who did want to work with them.

No rage, no real drama, just a bunch of people so convinced they know it all that they'll treat a grown man like it's the 9th grade locker room because they think it makes them look better.

[C.Hannum]

Also, you're off topic. This is the thread about price discussions. :DYes, hence my whole puzzlement how it all wound up here in the first place ;)

I partly get it, there are plenty of people who bitch and moan about the pricing of games (ohnoes, that game I paid $2 is now $1, I want a free car!) and they add nothing to the value of the forums. And old timers can be reflexively dismissive to relative newcomers when they see any hints of the same sort of idiotic behavior that crops up again and again. However, that doesn't change the fact that pigeon holing what I had to say about O&C was mistaken.

It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, I just wish people hadn't been so quick to dismiss what was being said as I think it does relate to the meta discussion of the game and its future.

[Vovin]

Yes, hence my whole puzzlement how it all wound up here in the first place ;)

I partly get it, there are plenty of people who bitch and moan about the pricing of games (ohnoes, that game I paid $2 is now $1, I want a free car!) and they add nothing to the value of the forums. And old timers can be reflexively dismissive to relative newcomers when they see any hints of the same sort of idiotic behavior that crops up again and again. However, that doesn't change the fact that pigeon holing what I had to say about O&C was mistaken.

It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, I just wish people hadn't been so quick to dismiss what was being said as I think it does relate to the meta discussion of the game and its future.


I think that Gameloft had already finished their first update and will include end content very soon. In the early days, a lot of MMORPGs were released in a state you can easily name "unfinished" or "without end content".
The whole thing of 3D MMORPGs is quite new to the iOS, things are developing slowly, in the same way as the earlier PC MMOs did.
And why the haste? I believe in Gamelofts support and care for this game. Seeing the big success of O&C, they won't abbandon it so fast.

Overall, it's a huge leap for handheld gaming. Even Gameloft has to learn a lot and this task is surely huge and difficult. And that's why you can't compare iOS MMORPGs and their PC equivalents. Some things (like 40 char raids / instances) will simply not work on iOS for now, Gameloft has to take another route. But it is awesome what they have already accomplished. If I told people just a year ago about a game like O&C on a phone, they would have laughed at me.

[MidianGTX]

No rage, no real drama, just a bunch of people so convinced they know it all that they'll treat a grown man like it's the 9th grade locker room because they think it makes them look better.

You could be a million years old and king of the world for all I care, but you still can't stay on topic. You can't keep playing the mature card if you continuously fail to follow that one, basic forum rule.

[Eli]

I am mad as hell about both game pricing and the fact that someone moved my off-topic rant. /gquit

[Vovin]

I am mad as hell about both game pricing and the fact that someone moved my off-topic rant. /gquit


u mad?


All are equal when it comes to the holy forum rules.
Your mods are doing a great job, be proud instead of mad.

[backtothis]

I am mad as hell about both game pricing and the fact that someone moved my off-topic rant. /gquit

LOL, laugh of the day.

[backtothis]

My position was not a general argument, it's not even applicable to anything except whether it's valid to critique Order & Chaos. Heck, it's not even a critique of Order & Chaos itself, merely a defense of the ability to genuinely critique it for the limited state it launched in because of the specific facts about the game, the genre, and its particular development.

So, no, you haven't heard this before over the past few years because the game hasn't even been out two weeks.

Exactly. It's because you aren't critiquing the game itself that this is a common complaint on iOS games. Devs on the iOS try to aim at quality games at times, but mostly, they're trying to make sure they earn a profit as their priority. Because of this, they cut the initial time invested by a good fraction, and will only continue on finishing the project once they see that it's worth the opportunity cost. If Gameloft didn't make their quota, then don't expect any additional content. However, Gameloft has already promised additional content on O&C, and if they are the experience developers that you suggested, they'll indeed fulfill your wishes on the game. Just give it time alright? Look, I don't have anything against you. I have a quick mouth quite often, so don't feel too hurt if I've insulted you.

[red12355]

Gotta give C. Hannum credit for his patience.

I would have flipped a shit if I were in his shoes.

[natedogg213]

Wow, this thread is getting so boring. I miss it's glory days :D

[K?!]

Dear god. Is this thread still going?

[MidianGTX]

Dear god. Is this thread still going?

It's either this or leave the annoying price discussion posts in the game topics.

[Nidol]

Canabalt is way worth 3 bucks, I play it all the time.

[zamansimba]

i dont get this thread, canabalt was aeons ago, why are we still discussing it

you can wander around the sidewalks of your town and get some dropped change amounting to 2.99 all this while

[backtothis]

i dont get this thread, canabalt was aeons ago, why are we still discussing it

you can wander around the sidewalks of your town and get some dropped change amounting to 2.99 all this while

The question isn't supposed to be serious..neither is the title, or the thread..

[MidianGTX]

The question isn't supposed to be serious..neither is the title, or the thread..

It's kinda serious for people on one side of the argument... for everyone else though it can be best described as:

http://gigapress.com/media/EternalGlee.gif

[12yam]

Gotta give C. Hannum credit for his patience.

I would have flipped a shit if I were in his shoes.

So would I. The way he was ganged up on for having a different opinion than most everyone else is saddening, especially considering he was completely respectful in every one of his arguments.

[MidianGTX]

So would I. The way he was ganged up on for having a different opinion than most everyone else is saddening, especially considering he was completely respectful in every one of his arguments.

And partly for going off-topic, which you're also doing so HAVE AT THEE, LANDLUBBER!

[Vovin]

LOL — that makes "respectful" the new "condescending," then.


Ya mean "hoity-toity", mate? Well, he didn't even say "Parley".

[yongkykun]

I'm going on a limb and repost what I said earlier because I haven't had anyone who wants to see more and more expensive apps give any kind of a counter argument.

"Chrono Trigger, for me. Heck I'll pay the same price as FF3 if they were to release the iOS version in 3D. But that's asking too much, I reckon. But if they do release it with the same 2D sprite graphics (revamped for higher res ala SoM) at the same price of FF3, then screw it. I'm happy with my SNES (which still works after all these years, unlike iDevices which has the lifespan of a deer living close to a highway).

I agree with natedogg213, and would like to remind these sell-them-higher fanboys that iPod Touch and iPhone didn't start out as a gaming platform and the platform has been embraced as one only recently. Back then, the competition is healthy, because devs are trying to figure out the best selling price for their apps as those who start the trend get to decide the general pricing trend. In two years, it has become somewhat established that the pricing of apps in the App Store is somewhere between free to $9.99 (US dollars, as I've pointed out, we who live in Australia pay higher due to the oh-so-fair Apple's currency policy). Along came big developers, we didn't invite them, did we? We were happy playing wee games for less than $5 a piece. Crappy as they may sound, some of them were quite enjoyable and some were even made to look, feel, and play like a console game, but these big devs started to push the limit of the hardware, surely Apple is more than happy to oblige which is why in later years, we see more powerful hardware and features being introduced to the iDevices. Then what comes next is you people wanting more and more big devs to come and make iPhones (initially a phone and organizer hybrid) and iPod Touch (entertainment iPod, iPhone without the phone) into a proper gaming platform.

BUT! Look at the reality of things, please! Is there a way for you to keep your saved games in your iDevices? Maybe in the future, we don't know. As it is, we don't have that kind of feature and what kind of a gaming platform doesn't keep save game files? If it was a nokia organizer, thing wouldn't be the same, right? Apple got extremely lucky with iDevices and you sell-them-higher-please-oh-developers type of gamers don't realize that you're like bots sending more money to Apple and bigger devs while all of those pioneering devs who started the pricing trend on iOS a few years earlier die out and forgotten.

So this is why I don't understand why people can't see that they have fallen victim to a classic case of capitalism. Some even think that capitalism is the best thing that ever been invented by humanity! Sad... I'm sad... "

[Vovin]

So would I. The way he was ganged up on for having a different opinion than most everyone else is saddening, especially considering he was completely respectful in every one of his arguments.


This one made me laugh.
You still haven't understood the nature of this thread, no?

1. Ridiculous pricing discussion from other thread is moved into this thread.
2. "Cheapskate" comes and continues discussion about the ridiculous high app prices.
3. Other members without unadjusted points of view read these posts and laugh.
4. Other members start making fun of these posts:
a) CS pouts and leaves the stage or
b) CS leaves more ridiculous statements and finally leaves or
c) CS gets angry and leaves sooner or later or
d) CS admits he was wrong (hasn't happened yet).
5. Situation calms after a while.
6. New ridiculous price discussion is moved into this thread, go to point 2.


Now the simple explanation: this is a garbage thread, you can tell this by looking at the thread name alone. Most things here aren't supposed to be taken serious.

Clear?

[backtothis]

I'm going on a limb and repost what I said earlier because I haven't had anyone who wants to see more and more expensive apps give any kind of a counter argument.

"Chrono Trigger, for me. Heck I'll pay the same price as FF3 if they were to release the iOS version in 3D. But that's asking too much, I reckon. But if they do release it with the same 2D sprite graphics (revamped for higher res ala SoM) at the same price of FF3, then screw it. I'm happy with my SNES (which still works after all these years, unlike iDevices which has the lifespan of a deer living close to a highway).

I agree with natedogg213, and would like to remind these sell-them-higher fanboys that iPod Touch and iPhone didn't start out as a gaming platform and the platform has been embraced as one only recently. Back then, the competition is healthy, because devs are trying to figure out the best selling price for their apps as those who start the trend get to decide the general pricing trend. In two years, it has become somewhat established that the pricing of apps in the App Store is somewhere between free to $9.99 (US dollars, as I've pointed out, we who live in Australia pay higher due to the oh-so-fair Apple's currency policy). Along came big developers, we didn't invite them, did we? We were happy playing wee games for less than $5 a piece. Crappy as they may sound, some of them were quite enjoyable and some were even made to look, feel, and play like a console game, but these big devs started to push the limit of the hardware, surely Apple is more than happy to oblige which is why in later years, we see more powerful hardware and features being introduced to the iDevices. Then what comes next is you people wanting more and more big devs to come and make iPhones (initially a phone and organizer hybrid) and iPod Touch (entertainment iPod, iPhone without the phone) into a proper gaming platform.

BUT! Look at the reality of things, please! Is there a way for you to keep your saved games in your iDevices? Maybe in the future, we don't know. As it is, we don't have that kind of feature and what kind of a gaming platform doesn't keep save game files? If it was a nokia organizer, thing wouldn't be the same, right? Apple got extremely lucky with iDevices and you sell-them-higher-please-oh-developers type of gamers don't realize that you're like bots sending more money to Apple and bigger devs while all of those pioneering devs who started the pricing trend on iOS a few years earlier die out and forgotten.

So this is why I don't understand why people can't see that they have fallen victim to a classic case of capitalism. Some even think that capitalism is the best thing that ever been invented by humanity! Sad... I'm sad... "

Good thing you're not American.

Once I've deleted a game from my iPod, I've already gotten my money's worth out of it and played it to an amount I've seen fit for that game. What the hell do I need save files for? If you're hoping for updates, just keep the game on the iPod. Buy a f**king 64GB if you're going to give us this bullshit. Data files are the future. We won't have any use for clumsy disks and high prices for shelf space/transportation that come with the games on other devices. And um, hell yes we invited these bigger developers to the iOS. What the hell? Steve Jobs has already acknowledged that the iPod Touch is a full gaming device that markets games that can compete with those on the PSP/DS a long time ago. Christ, why don't you just go back to playing your consoles, and leave us in peace. I, for one, will be updating my device annually in September and buying all the games I want with satisfaction and no complaint about their meager prices. The bigger companies didn't ruin the competition. The race to the bottom $0.99 price point did. We haven't been affected by shit. It's you who's fallen prey to the childish mindset and entitlement that infects iOS customers like the plague. Here on TA, most of us have been vaccinated. Get your's today. Plus, are you sure know the first thing on capitalism? It sure doesn't sound like it. Yeah, imad. But f**k, umad more bro.

[Vovin]

Sad... I'm sad... "


A good psychatrist might be able to help you. Just ask for Maprotilin.

[Vovin]

Good thing you're not American.

Once I've deleted a game from my iPod, I've already gotten my money's worth out of it and played it to an amount I've seen fit for that game. What the hell do I need save files for? If you're hoping for updates, just keep the game on the iPod. Buy a f**king 64GB if you're going to give us this bullshit. Data files are the future. We won't have any use for clumsy disks and high prices for shelf space/transportation that come with the games on other devices. And um, hell yes we invited these bigger developers to the iOS. What the hell? Steve Jobs has already acknowledged that the iPod Touch is a full gaming device that markets games that can compete with those on the PSP/DS a long time ago. Christ, why don't you just go back to playing your consoles, and leave us in peace. I, for one, will be updating my device annually in September and buying all the games I want with satisfaction and no complaint about their meager prices. We haven't been affected by shit. It's you who's fallen prey to the childish mindset and entitlement that infects iOS customers like the plague. Here on TA, most of us have been vaccinated. Get your's today.


+1
Sigworthy, but way too big.
Gaming never was cheaper than today.

They just don't seem to get that all we want is: paying decent prices and more quality games in the App Store.
In the end, devs need money for food and toilet paper, too.

[backtothis]

Damn, the new iOS is out..another 650.3 MB download!

[yongkykun]

Good thing you're not American.

Once I've deleted a game from my iPod, I've already gotten my money's worth out of it and played it to an amount I've seen fit for that game. What the hell do I need save files for? If you're hoping for updates, just keep the game on the iPod. Buy a f**king 64GB if you're going to give us this bullshit. Data files are the future. We won't have any use for clumsy disks and high prices for shelf space/transportation that come with the games on other devices. And um, hell yes we invited these bigger developers to the iOS. What the hell? Steve Jobs has already acknowledged that the iPod Touch is a full gaming device that markets games that can compete with those on the PSP/DS a long time ago. Christ, why don't you just go back to playing your consoles, and leave us in peace. I, for one, will be updating my device annually in September and buying all the games I want with satisfaction and no complaint about their meager prices. The bigger companies didn't ruin the competition. The race to the bottom $0.99 price point did. We haven't been affected by shit. It's you who's fallen prey to the childish mindset and entitlement that infects iOS customers like the plague. Here on TA, most of us have been vaccinated. Get your's today. Plus, are you sure know the first thing on capitalism? It sure doesn't sound like it. Yeah, imad. But f**k, umad more bro.

I've got a 64gb ipad and 32gb iphone 3gs, have to split my games to both devices to fit them in. Save files need to be saved because I love games and I love to play the new ones to give them a go and sometimes I have to delete the ones I hardly touch to make room for the new ones so by the time I have the old ones back in to play them again, thanks to the current state of iOS I have to start from the beginning again. Plus I love rpg games, and sometimes you just want to keep them so that you can play through the end part or level up more after finishing the game just to kill time, so yeah, to me, it's really important.

Again with the entitlement, it's like speaking to a fundamentalist with you people. Hopeless. Yeah, I know more about the idea behind capitalism and socialism, liberalism and conservatism and what not, because I study history, media, science, art, economy, and politics. Doesn't matter if you don't get my point, most people who live in the west don't.

At the end of the day, you haven't given me any counter-argument. What you've been telling me in your post is your specific individual point of view.

[Vovin]

I've got a 64gb ipad and 32gb iphone 3gs, have to split my games to both devices to fit them in. Save files need to be saved because I love games and I love to play the new ones to give them a go and sometimes I have to delete the ones I hardly touch to make room for the new ones so by the time I have the old ones back in to play them again, thanks to the current state of iOS I have to start from the beginning again. Plus I love rpg games, and sometimes you just want to keep them so that you can play through the end part or level up more after finishing the game just to kill time, so yeah, to me, it's really important.



Install a brower / manager for your iDevices on your PC.

Going to the private/var/mobile/Applications folder, you will see a ton of folders that will remind you of the windows registry. Each folder contains your application and it's saves. The folder is larger than your apps. For instance, I have 2.9GB apps installed, but the folder is 3.2GB.

An example: I had Enigmo installed. I had played up to level 5, so I knew I had a saved game on the phone. I copied (backupped) the entire Applications folder to my PC for easy searching. I found the Enigmo under one of those huge-named folders. 121D0BD9-etc... I removed the app from my
iPhone
using the iPhone, then resynced with
iTunes
to let it reinstall. I started the game, and my save was gone. Using WinSCP, I browsed to my PC with the save files, and then looked on the iPhone. The folder had changed to BC116506-etc... so the folder structure changed, however the folders under that were exactly the same. I simply restored the Library/Preferences folder and restarted the game (did not have to reboot my iPhone for any of this). When it restarted, I told it to resume, and my Level 5 save was there.

Some games may require more files to restore, however I suspect the folder with the program name is simply the app and won't change. I can't prove this, just my assumption.

However, this shows that you can restore your save games, and that they are NOT linked with iTunes.

Any more complaints?

[gunxsword]

However, this shows that you can restore your save games, and that they are NOT linked with iTunes.

Oh crap I'm desperately looking for one of these :eek:. Can I find a program that will work on a un-jailbroken iphone 4?

[yongkykun]

Yes, Vovin, you're working under the premise that my device is jailbroken. My iPad is, but iPhone is not. It's not really a complain though, why do people always miss the point?

Thanks for the tutorial, but I've tried it and for some games, this method doesn't work.

[yongkykun]

Oh crap I'm desperately looking for one of these :eek:. Can I find a program that will work on a un-jailbroken iphone 4?

Try mobilesyncbrowser. It works for me, but what it does is only restore you save games from an earlier backup files made by iTunes.

[Vovin]

Not jailbroken? Air Sharing (available in the AppStore) might help maybe.

Another option for savegame backups without jailbreaking:

To gain access to iPhone’s files, use a utility called iPhone Explorer which is available for both Mac & Windows user as freeware. Connect your iOS device over USB and launch iPhone Explorer. Navigate to Apps > [Application which you want to backup].

You should be able to see a sub-folder called Documents. Drag this folder to a backup location on your computer.

Usually, a single file is enough to restore the game saves. After you have deleted and re-installed the app on an iOS device, follow the same steps to replace the save file or the full Documents folder in the case of other games.

For the changes to take effect, quit the application manually using the multitasking bar and then relaunch it. Might work.

[Dekon]

Yes, my dear jerky friend... greed is also the reason why Square / Enix donated 100 million Japanese yen for the Japan relief?

http://release.square-enix.com/na/2011/03/17_01.html

Get lost.
=1,240,368.31 USD that's nothing.:rolleyes:

[yongkykun]

Not jailbroken? Air Sharing (available in the AppStore) might help maybe.

Another option for savegame backups without jailbreaking:

To gain access to iPhone’s files, use a utility called iPhone Explorer which is available for both Mac & Windows user as freeware. Connect your iOS device over USB and launch iPhone Explorer. Navigate to Apps > [Application which you want to backup].

You should be able to see a sub-folder called Documents. Drag this folder to a backup location on your computer.

Usually, a single file is enough to restore the game saves. After you have deleted and re-installed the app on an iOS device, follow the same steps to replace the save file or the full Documents folder in the case of other games.

For the changes to take effect, quit the application manually using the multitasking bar and then relaunch it. Might work.

Have you actually tried this yourself? Because that was the first thing I did when I tried to restore my Chaos Rings save game files from an old backup and it didn't work. I reckon it has to do with the game having the savegame files listed on the plist file which means that even though you have copied over the necessary files the game still won't be able to register them.

[b00mers]

errm why dont you just use appbackup if you are jailbroken, thats what i did... it works great and you can transfer your saves to a pc

[yongkykun]

errm why dont you just use appbackup if you are jailbroken, thats what i did... it works great and you can transfer your saves to a pc

The question is how to do it on an un-jailbroken device, mate.

[MidianGTX]

What I'd like to know is... how did yongkykun manage to type so much while seemingly having no real knowledge of the App Store and the game development business other than what he likes to see as a consumer? I too, would love an endless supply of quality games at little to no cost with no consequences to Apple, the developer or myself, but it's not quite as simple as that.

[Vovin]

The question is how to do it on an un-jailbroken device, mate.


No, this text was saved on my PC, got it from the internet a while ago. Haven't tried it myself, therefore I wrote: "might work" at the end. But I'll try that later.

I also found this:

http://www.gadgetxtreme.com/how-to-transfer-save-games-on-iphone-and-ipad-without-itunes-and-without-jailbreak/

Looks like a backup guide for non-jb devices.

Now back to topic, thanks Midian.

[yongkykun]

What I'd like to know is... how did yongkykun manage to type so much while seemingly having no real knowledge of the App Store and the game development business other than what he likes to see as a consumer? I too, would love an endless supply of quality games at little to no cost with no consequences to Apple, the developer or myself, but it's not quite as simple as that.

If you're so smart, enlighten me then instead of just insulting my intelligence. Economy is not an exact science is it? You really think that the app store is fair? Even though Australians have to pay more than Americans for apps? Game dev business is just like any other business, ain't it?

BTW, it's not the cost that concerns me, it's the mindset. People thinking that big devs setting higher price can actually do any good, it's just naive. Remember that smaller devs (especially the one man show ones) are the ones that set the price low, so do keep that in mind when I say that big developers like SquareEnix who sets the price higher and higher doesn't really do any good because the competitors are setting the price low and it has been so since the conception of the App Store itself. Only fans would buy them and most of those who are not familiar with the FF series will be put off because, other devs who made similar games are selling them at lower than half the price that they set. And back to my point, Apple is making the iDevices more and more powerful with each new iteration because it has become known as a gaming platform in recent years, BUT IT WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE ONE therefore they just don't have the features of a proper gaming console ergo not intended to have the apps priced at the same level as a proper gaming console. Features within the iOS that we have seen so far point to that very fact (i.e.: airplay, facetime, HD camera, etc.). I hope they do use cloud services for save game files in the future iOS, but that still doesn't take away the fact that the iDevice was not intended to be a gaming platform. So stop this rubbish about comparing prices between App Store apps with PSP or NDS or what have you. That is all the point that I'm trying to make!

[yongkykun]

And you're doing an incredibly poor job of it.

Although I will add that this thread is a perfect place for you.

Glad to see you here then

[backtothis]

You know, just you even complaining that you have to pay more Australian dollars should void your entire argument. Do you know anything at all about economics? Why are you here?

Steve Jobs stated that the iPod Touch has long evolved into a gaming device, and that future generations will all move in the direction of providing a better gaming experience. Also, you stated earlier that you needed 96GB of free space for games? Really? Not a week goes by where I don't buy a giftcard, and I'm doing just fine with my 32 GB. Maybe it's time to delete trash and free games? I don't have a single free game/app on my iPod or on iTunes. And um, maybe finish those long RPGs and other lengthy games at least once in a while before moving on to the next game? Maybe that'll help. The AppStore is all about finding a gem, so why does it matter if I delete games 5 minutes after I purchase them. It's because their prices are so low that l can do that without second thoughts. If it's competent, I'm not going to play it. If you buy a console game, that's a different story. And don't tell me about buying a used game or returning a game by making up some bullshit story. I've never done either and never will. Plus, Square Enix obviously hasn't done anything to the prices. If anything, prices have gone done in every sector of the iOS gaming market continuously thoughout the past few years. Heck, Gameloft just released Fast Five for $4.99. Did the price point get lowered AGAIN? When you see the slightest hint that the AppStore reflects your sentiments, we can talk again. But for now, with your nearly completely absent knowledge of anything about the AppStore and related markets, please just stop it. Economics isn't an exact science, true, but it's definitely not a place for idiotic bullshit.

[yongkykun]

You know, just you even complaining that you have to pay more Australian dollars should void your entire argument. Do you know anything at all about economics? Why are you here?

I can ask the same about you.

Steve Jobs stated that the iPod Touch has long evolved into a gaming device, and that future generations will all move in the direction of providing a better gaming experience.

A trend started by small developers.

Also, you stated earlier that you needed 96GB of free space for games? Really? Not a week goes by where I don't buy a giftcard, and I'm doing just fine with my 32 GB. Maybe it's time to delete trash and free games?

I didn't say that I used all of them on games, it's your assumption. I do have music and work related videos. Wait, you buy giftcards? Out of curiousity, can you elaborate on why you don't use credit card? Trash and free games? Again, it's in your mind this. Stop assuming things and get on with facts.

I don't have a single free game/app on my iPod or on iTunes. And um, maybe finish those long RPGs and other lengthy games at least once in a while before moving on to the next game? Maybe that'll help. The AppStore is all about finding a gem, so why does it matter if I delete games 5 minutes after I purchase them. It's because their prices are so low that l can do that without second thoughts. If it's competent, I'm not going to play it. If you buy a console game, that's a different story. And don't tell me about buying a used game or returning a game by making up some bullshit story. I've never done either and never will.

You're having a "dear diary" moment there. Not interested in your opinion on how to manage your game or which one to buy. Fascist.

Plus, Square Enix obviously hasn't done anything to the prices. If anything, prices have gone done in every sector of the iOS gaming market continuously thoughout the past few years. Heck, Gameloft just released Fast Five for $4.99. Did the price point get lowered AGAIN? When you see the slightest hint that the AppStore reflects your sentiments, we can talk again. But for now, with your nearly completely absent knowledge of anything about the AppStore and related markets, please just stop it. Economics isn't an exact science, true, but it's definitely not a place for idiotic bullshit.

True. SE hasn't done anything to the prices, I've been saying that, problem is many people are in favour of other big devs going down the same path and make games at higher and higher price than necessitated by the market. Have you ever gone to a market, any market, and ask them to sell an item higher? Go to a any market and the general thing you'll find is that they DO compare prices, they adjust their prices to make the competition healthy. What's idiotic about it?

[backtothis]

You belong in this thread. Let's just leave it at that. Like so many before me have stated here on TA, sometimes there's just no point in trying. This is one of those occasions. I'm a Keynesian if that means anything.

[phattestfatty]

^ I don't see what's so healthy about a hardworking indie dev spending a year on making a high quality game that they sell for dirt cheap. And they lose money cause a ton of little kids think everything should be free. It's even worse if the dev sells for a decent price cause a ton of people freak if a game is more than a dollar, even if it's awesome. I've seen an iTunes review ranting for two paragraphs about how awesome a 2.99 or up game is and then give one to two stars cause they finish with: it should have been free or it should have been .99. Plus, if the prices are higher, and people don't piss and moan about it, then big companies are going to invest in making good games for iOS because they could actually make a good profit.

Edit: ^^ before previous post.

[yongkykun]

You belong in this thread. Let's just leave it at that. Like so many before me have stated here on TA, sometimes there's just no point in trying. This is one of those occasions.

I'd just checked your profile, I'm so sorry, mate. Didn't realize that you're just a teen. Shouldn't have been too harsh on ya. But do mind that there are things that you don't understand yet, just because you have the internet doesn't mean that it's the same as having read a plethora of books on the library. Learn stuff before calling others idiots.

[phattestfatty]

You belong in this thread. Let's just leave it at that. Like so many before me have stated here on TA, sometimes there's just no point in trying. This is one of those occasions. I'm a Keynesian if that means anything.

Wtf is a Keynesian?!?

[MidianGTX]

Wtf is a Keynesian?!?

Someone born in Keyna :p

[backtothis]

I'd just checked your profile, I'm so sorry, mate. Didn't realize that you're just a teen. Shouldn't have been too harsh on ya. But do mind that there are things that you don't understand yet, just because you have the internet doesn't mean that it's the same as having read a plethora of books on the library. Learn stuff before calling others idiots.
Bleh..it's whatever I guess. I don't want to argue anymore.
Wtf is a Keynesian?!?

It's a branch of economic thought, the dominant one here in the US. Lol...time for Economics 101? I thought you were in college...economics is a required credit here in Houston for high school seniors.

[yongkykun]

^ I don't see what's so healthy about a hardworking indie dev spending a year on making a high quality game that they sell for dirt cheap. And they lose money cause a ton of little kids think everything should be free. It's even worse if the dev sells for a decent price cause a ton of people freak if a game is more than a dollar, even if it's awesome. I've seen an iTunes review ranting for two paragraphs about how awesome a 2.99 or up game is and then give one to two stars cause they finish with: it should have been free or it should have been .99. Plus, if the prices are higher, and people don't piss and moan about it, then big companies are going to invest in making good games for iOS because they could actually make a good profit.

That's the point though, ain't it. Most of the developers in the App Store are indie devs, which means that they should be able to change the price point. But when a big dev comes along and sells apps for more than $9.99, then it's a problem to me, because they are taking the attention away from the indie devs. It's like in Karl Marx's Das Kapital, ain't it? A rich businessman opens a big supermarket in a small town. The supermarket buys vegetables from local farmers but sells them higher, but because of the mindset of the people in the small town, they rather buy stuff at the supermarket as opposed to buying them from the farmers. But the farmers have the right and power to actually sell them high to supermarket and low to their consumers to balance the scale, so to speak, something that can't be done with app store.

I agree with your last point, I'm all for fair market/competition. But at the current state, I just don't see that happening. The current trend, to me, is people wanting the irrational thing, higher and higher price for better games, and I don't see how the two can actually be put together. We've seen a lot of examples for this. There are many games that are sold for over AU$10 and they are not as good as advertised. Either the gameplay is too simplistic or there are too many bugs or whatever. But of course, at the other end of the spectrum, you do have those kids who ask for cheaper and free games, but we don't give a damn about them, do we?

[backtothis]

Let's just see where the iOS takes us by the end of 2011 first. No point in speculating too much. Keeping my hopes up though.

[triggywiggy]

That's the point though, ain't it. Most of the developers in the App Store are indie devs, which means that they should be able to change the price point. But when a big dev comes along and sells apps for more than $9.99, then it's a problem to me, because they are taking the attention away from the indie devs. It's like in Karl Marx's Das Kapital, ain't it? A rich businessman opens a big supermarket in a small town. The supermarket buys vegetables from local farmers but sells them higher, but because of the mindset of the people in the small town, they rather buy stuff at the supermarket as opposed to buying them from the farmers. But the farmers have the right and power to actually sell them high to supermarket and low to their consumers to balance the scale, so to speak, something that can't be done with app store.

I agree with your last point, I'm all for fair market/competition. But at the current state, I just don't see that happening. The current trend, to me, is people wanting the irrational thing, higher and higher price for better games, and I don't see how the two can actually be put together. We've seen a lot of examples for this. There are many games that are sold for over AU$10 and they are not as good as advertised. Either the gameplay is too simplistic or there are too many bugs or whatever. But of course, at the other end of the spectrum, you do have those kids who ask for cheaper and free games, but we don't give a damn about them, do we?

Its the App Store man not Supemarkets :p:rolleyes::):D:cool:;)

[MidianGTX]

I love the argument that better quality games shouldn't cost more. I wish you'd tell it to Lamborghini.

[yongkykun]

Its the App Store man not Supemarkets :p:rolleyes::):D:cool:;)

All stores operate in the same way. Even in countries and certain market places where you can haggle, the principle is the same.

[triggywiggy]

All stores operate in the same way. Even in countries and certain market places where you can haggle, the principle is the same.

Yeh but you can't haggle on the app store.

Its not Bali or Phuket man its a Multi Billion Dollar business and if every game was to be at 1.19 we would have a considerably less amount of games and updates for games on the app store.

So what if you sell your game for $5 and only get 1/4 of the amount of people buy your game then what you would get if you sold it for a dollar. You still are making more then you would at a dollar.

[yongkykun]

triggy mate, you've missed the whole point of my argument.

[Rofl Copter]

It seems like the mindset of people posting in here is that if they don't agree with what you think they're automatically wrong. Most of you aren't even considering the arguments of these people and are just flaming them for not agreeing with you.

I don't necessarily agree with anyone, but I actually get the feeling here that if I feel like posting something that hasn't been posted thousands of times and universally agreed on by the forums I could get flamed.

The one thing i definitely agree on though, is that Australian's are getting ripped off with digital purchases on itunes. Regardless of the fact our dollar is dominating the US one, we have a nearly 20% mark up on all prices, which is more when considering the conversion rates. If a US 99c app is being sold, it 'should' only be 92c AUS, as opposed to $1.19 which it currently is.

/rant.

[Vovin]

That's the point though, ain't it. Most of the developers in the App Store are indie devs, which means that they should be able to change the price point. But when a big dev comes along and sells apps for more than $9.99, then it's a problem to me, because they are taking the attention away from the indie devs. It's like in Karl Marx's Das Kapital, ain't it? A rich businessman opens a big supermarket in a small town. The supermarket buys vegetables from local farmers but sells them higher, but because of the mindset of the people in the small town, they rather buy stuff at the supermarket as opposed to buying them from the farmers. But the farmers have the right and power to actually sell them high to supermarket and low to their consumers to balance the scale, so to speak, something that can't be done with app store.

I agree with your last point, I'm all for fair market/competition. But at the current state, I just don't see that happening. The current trend, to me, is people wanting the irrational thing, higher and higher price for better games, and I don't see how the two can actually be put together. We've seen a lot of examples for this. There are many games that are sold for over AU$10 and they are not as good as advertised. Either the gameplay is too simplistic or there are too many bugs or whatever. But of course, at the other end of the spectrum, you do have those kids who ask for cheaper and free games, but we don't give a damn about them, do we?



You're mentioning the name Karl Marx way too often - but you don't have any clue about the true nature of things. You're missing some sense of reality, that's for sure. Stay in your own little world. Dream on.
You also shouldn't refer too much to someone, who expressed racist statements against certain nations.



MidianGTX:

I love the argument that better quality games shouldn't cost more. I wish you'd tell it to Lamborghini.


Yeah. I am still laughing.

[gunxsword]

The one thing i definitely agree on though, is that Australian's are getting ripped off with digital purchases on itunes. Regardless of the fact our dollar is dominating the US one, we have a nearly 20% mark up on all prices, which is more when considering the conversion rates. If a US 99c app is being sold, it 'should' only be 92c AUS, as opposed to $1.19 which it currently is.

Hey wanna file a petition?
Let's start media campaigns etc and pressure Apple to change the prices :D

[Rofl Copter]

You're mentioning the name Karl Marx way too often - but you don't have any clue about the true nature of things. You're missing some sense of reality, that's for sure. Stay in your own little world. Dream on.
You also shouldn't refer too much to someone, who expressed racist statements against certain nations.

Things like this are exactly what I mean. You're just shutting him out, practically ignoring his entire post, and focusing on one small thing he said in a very insignificant reference.

Oh, and I completely agree with you there gun. Get into them!

EDIT: Oh, and music. A US 1.29 song is $2.19 dollars australian. Bloody pathetic >.>

[Vovin]

Things like this are exactly what I mean. You're just shutting him out, practically ignoring his entire post, and focusing on one small thing he said in a very insignificant reference.

Oh, and I completely agree with you there gun. Get into them!

EDIT: Oh, and music. A US 1.29 song is $2.19 dollars australian. Bloody pathetic >.>


No, that's not my intention. I already made my point in this thread, don't like to discuss the same thing over and over again.
He also brought the same things over and over, nothing new. Still he continues, deluded by dubious tenets; he just goes around in circles. He ignores everything except his own opinions. That's getting boring. As MidianGTX said, he states he's mature and full into the worlds economics and makes ridiculous statements at the same time. Slowly, this makes me feel conned.

And I always would be careful throwing around names like Marx or Engels too much.

[Rofl Copter]

No, that's not my intention. I already made my point in this thread, don't like to discuss the same thing over and over again.
He also brought the same things over and over, nothing new. Still he continues, deluded by dubious tenets; he just goes around in circles. He ignores everything except his own opinions. That's getting boring. As MidianGTX said, he states he's mature and full into the worlds economics and makes ridiculous statements at the same time. Slowly, this makes me feel conned.

And I always would be careful throwing around names like Marx or Engels too much.

Fair enough, it just feels like I see the same thing over and over again, regardless of points and it's starting to get on my nerves.

Some guy posts somewhere about something that disagrees with majority of people, argument happens, argument is moved here and the person is eventually shunned by the majority of people without anyone even considering their thoughts.

That's not always the case, I know, but I feel that is the general vibe coming from most posts in this thread.

[Vovin]

Fair enough, it just feels like I see the same thing over and over again, regardless of points and it's starting to get on my nerves.

Some guy posts somewhere about something that disagrees with majority of people, argument happens, argument is moved here and the person is eventually shunned by the majority of people without anyone even considering their thoughts.

That's not always the case, I know, but I feel that is the general vibe coming from most posts in this thread.


The intention of this thread is not to be a platform for serious discussions. This is the price discussion garbage thread. Have you never noticed that everyone can talk freely here? There's nearly no censorship, no mod comes and puts the flames out when it's burning. This thread is a collection of crappy price discussion posts - nothing more, nothing less. Hodapp and his mods have given up long time ago, nobody of them is trying to talk some sense into the people anymore. Same is valid with most of the users who participated here weeks ago.
People who try to discuss here should know what they're entering into, if you know what I mean.
This thread ain't no pony farm.

I do read the posts. I try to understand them. Some I do, some not. Sometimes I agree with a statement. But 95% of these posts are just blabla. People posting here in the garbage thread can't claim to be taken seriously.

[Rofl Copter]

I know this thread is not serious and that is filled with people moaning about prices and other things, however there is the odd occasion where someone has tried to make a legimiate, respectful and well-posted argument only to have it unnecessarily shot down.

The fact that this thread is a mess shouldn't be an excuse to treat people like idiots, unless they truly act like them, and I'm sick of seeing it happen.

[Vovin]

there is the odd occasion where someone has tried to make a legimiate, respectful and well-posted argument


Where? Where?? :confused:



shouldn't be an excuse to treat people like idiots


Both sides are doing this, so...

[Rofl Copter]

Legitimate and respectful doesn't always mean right, lol. I would bring up one post in particular but I doubt the person would appreciate me opening up a can of worms.

[Vovin]

A guy who makes keys?



Keynesian economics is a macroeconomic theory based on the ideas of 20th century English economist John Maynard Keynes. Keynesian economics argues that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes and therefore advocates active policy responses by the public sector, including monetary policy actions by the central bank and fiscal policy actions by the government to stabilize output over the business cycle.

[...]

According to Keynesian theory, some microeconomic-level actions—if taken collectively by a large proportion of individuals and firms—can lead to inefficient aggregate macroeconomic outcomes, where the economy operates below its potential output and growth rate. Such a situation had previously been referred to by classical economists as a general glut. There was disagreement among classical economists (some of whom believed in Say's Law—that "supply creates its own demand"), on whether a general glut was possible. Keynes contended that a general glut would occur when aggregate demand for goods was insufficient, leading to an economic downturn resulting in losses of potential output due to unnecessarily high unemployment, which results from the defensive (or reactive) decisions of the producers. In such a situation, government policies could be used to increase aggregate demand, thus increasing economic activity and reducing unemployment and deflation. Most Keynesians advocate an activist stabilization policy to reduce the amplitude of the business cycle, which they rank among the most serious of economic problems. This does not necessarily mean fine-tuning, but it does mean what might be called 'coarse-tuning.' For example, when the unemployment rate is very high, a government can use a dose of expansionary monetary policy.


Source: Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

[Vovin]

Legitimate and respectful doesn't always mean right, lol. I would bring up one post in particular but I doubt the person would appreciate me opening up a can of worms.


People are just fed up with this whining about prices and stuff. They've read it a hundred times. Maybe more. Today, when somebody comes and tries to make good and valid points, nobody wants to listen anymore; people got sick of it because of others who already carried economy to extremes. They've just overdone it. That's the problem.

[yongkykun]

Hey Rofl Copter and gunxsword how do we go about filing that petition? Count me in.

@Vovin, I have to make the same argument over and over again to make things clear, but the main thing is I'm not from a western country, I'm not even Australian (yet), plug I only had a month to learn English before going to Australia a couple of years ago, so do understand my very limited lingo. Little known fact: Indonesian people can't write in a linear structure, the way we write thesis or paper is always in a fractal form. To most western civilization, indonesian literature is often considered to be chaotic. So there you have it.

And please, because Karl is a bit ethnocentric, but the message is clear, capitalism (and its derivative, consumerism) is bad, but I disagree with some socialist doctrines as well. I hate money is all. And the way you wrote your post seems to imply that I have something against paying money for apps, again, I don't. I don't like.. never mind. Read my previous posts more carefully. It's chaotic, but there's a silver lining in there somewhere.

[triggywiggy]

I totally agree with people when they say that the prices for apps in Australia needs changing. I don't care what prices developers list there games at. I care more that the Aussies have to pay extra for games then the rest of the worlds economies. We should be paying at most 90c(au) for a game. Out dollar is ahead of the US Dollar meaning it should be worth more. So 90c(au) is about equal to 98-99c(US) at the moment.

If only the App Stores prices change due to the global economic conditions. It would be great because it would bite all those kids that don't know about economic's in the ***. And all the intelligent individuals that do pay attention to this stuff can get the games when its the right time.

[Rofl Copter]

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.

Although it would be annoying if the aussie dollar ever hit rock bottom (it was almost 70c not too long ago D: ), it's only fair on the devs.

[yongkykun]

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.

Although it would be annoying if the aussie dollar ever hit rock bottom (it was almost 70c not too long ago D: ), it's only fair on the devs.

I think it's fair both ways. If the app store were to follow the currency rates, it would be fair both to the consumers and developers alike. Even though if aussie dollar were to plummet down, it'd be fair.

I mean, everything in Sydney is much more expensive than anywhere else in the country, but that doesn't mean that it's unfair because the economy works just fine. Minimum wages and fair labour cost are the two main reasons why I love this country.

[natedogg213]

The intention of this thread is not to be a platform for serious discussions. This is the price discussion garbage thread. Have you never noticed that everyone can talk freely here? There's nearly no censorship, no mod comes and puts the flames out when it's burning. This thread is a collection of crappy price discussion posts - nothing more, nothing less. Hodapp and his mods have given up long time ago, nobody of them is trying to talk some sense into the people anymore. Same is valid with most of the users who participated here weeks ago.
People who try to discuss here should know what they're entering into, if you know what I mean.
This thread ain't no pony farm.

I do read the posts. I try to understand them. Some I do, some not. Sometimes I agree with a statement. But 95% of these posts are just blabla. People posting here in the garbage thread can't claim to be taken seriously.

I guess this really speaks to your character. You troll around this "garbage thread" admitting that you disagree with 95 percent of the people who think price is a legitimate issue, and further attempting to marginalize their viewpoints by saying there is no serious discussion. Yet here you are, all the time, adding nothing of value! Rofl hit it on the head - The "other 5 percent" (you, Backtothis, Midian, Vovin, Dukester, et al) basically get your kicks ganging up on people and feeling obligated to defend the app store's pricing. You come across as a total shill.

[Vovin]

Hey Rofl Copter and gunxsword how do we go about filing that petition? Count me in.

@Vovin, I have to make the same argument over and over again to make things clear, but the main thing is I'm not from a western country, I'm not even Australian (yet), plug I only had a month to learn English before going to Australia a couple of years ago, so do understand my very limited lingo. Little known fact: Indonesian people can't write in a linear structure, the way we write thesis or paper is always in a fractal form. To most western civilization, indonesian literature is often considered to be chaotic. So there you have it.

And please, because Karl is a bit ethnocentric, but the message is clear, capitalism (and its derivative, consumerism) is bad, but I disagree with some socialist doctrines as well. I hate money is all. And the way you wrote your post seems to imply that I have something against paying money for apps, again, I don't. I don't like.. never mind. Read my previous posts more carefully. It's chaotic, but there's a silver lining in there somewhere.


Ok, you seem to be humble, so I'll answer you again in a hopefully clear and simple way:

First of all, economical rules doesn't seem to work with the AppStore. The AppStore is an economical chaos. The devs try hard to understand how the AppStore works, but it's an absolutely difficult task.
Second, neither communist nor capitalistic rules apply.
Btw., communism is a totally good idea, but it never works with the greedy human lot. Humans are too stupid to develop a functional system like this. There was never a true and working communistic system. Communism is a dream, not more.
Third: have you really read my posts? Me, not wanting to pay for apps?
Well, the completely opposite is the case. I want realistic and decent prices for both the developers and the customers. Good money for good quality apps.
Let's say a dev works a year to design a good, polished game and releases it for 3 bucks in the AppStore. A few moments later, the first cheapskate idiots show up, telling him why 3 bucks is way too much. This is not only an insult to his hard work, it's also bitter for him. The dev starts becoming unsure and lowers the price to one buck eventually. This buck isn't his alone. First, Apple takes their 30% share, he also has to pay another 20% per copy sold for a graphic designer, componist or other things. That's quite common today. This leaves him around 0.50$. Devs with good apps and a lot of luck, fans and visibility on the store might sell a few 10.000 copies of a game, the normal indie dev has luck when he sells a few thousand copies. Let's say 8.000 copies x 0.50$. For one year hard work. A bitter truth, isn't it? And along are coming more and more cheapskates, scratching the butter from the devs bread. Tell me how he should pay his rent. What about funds he needs for his next project? And then people come and demand more quality games.
When you want quality, you gonna have to pay a decent price for it. That's how it works. Forget everything else.

In the end - why do people pay 10 bucks for a cinema ticket and 2 hours of fun but won't pay 3 bucks for a game that entertains them 10 hours? Isn't this just crazy? My guess: yes.

[triggywiggy]

I guess this really speaks to your character. You troll around this "garbage thread" admitting that you disagree with 95 percent of the people who think price is a legitimate issue, and further attempting to marginalize their viewpoints by saying there is no serious discussion. Yet here you are, all the time, adding nothing of value! Rofl hit it on the head - The "other 5 percent" (you, Backtothis, Midian, Vovin, Dukester, et al) basically get your kicks ganging up on people and feeling obligated to defend the app store's pricing. You come across as a total shill.

Vovin 4,300 posts you 200. He has been on TA for a much longer time so he knows more about the store than you do. That other list of people Backtothis, Midian etc are well respected user and for you to come on here and say things like that is a disgrace. :mad:

[Vovin]

:cool:I guess this really speaks to your character. You troll around this "garbage thread" admitting that you disagree with 95 percent of the people who think price is a legitimate issue, and further attempting to marginalize their viewpoints by saying there is no serious discussion. Yet here you are, all the time, adding nothing of value! Rofl hit it on the head - The "other 5 percent" (you, Backtothis, Midian, Vovin, Dukester, et al) basically get your kicks ganging up on people and feeling obligated to defend the app store's pricing. You come across as a total shill.


Haven't you promised to shut up?

[triggywiggy]

:cool:


Haven't you promised to shut up?

Read what i said 2 posts back.

To Quote Vovin 4,300 posts you 200. He has been on TA for a much longer time so he knows more about the store than you do. That other list of people Backtothis, Midian etc are well respected user and for you to come on here and say things like that is a disgrace.

[STYJ]

In the end - why do people pay 10 bucks for a cinema ticket and 2 hours of fun but won't pay 3 bucks for a game that entertains them 10 hours? Isn't this just crazy? My guess: yes.

Humans are too stupid

Nothing more , nothing less . Just plain stupidity (:

[Vovin]

Read what i said 2 posts back.


I've just done, thanks. ;)

Well, peop... no, trolls like nate just don't realize that this thread was made for them, not for our enjoyment.

[Vovin]

Nothing more , nothing less . Just plain stupidity (:



LOL, you've nailed it.

[triggywiggy]

Nothing more , nothing less . Just plain stupidity (:

Agreed.

I've just done, thanks. ;)

Well, peop... no, trolls like nate just don't realize that this thread was made for them, not for our enjoyment.

No worries. I hate when people just come on here and start saying that us users don't know anything. If we did not know anything then why are we on TA? And why have we joined TA before them. If they knew more than us they would have joined this site a long long time ago.

[yongkykun]

Ok, you seem to be humble, so I'll answer you again in a hopefully clear and simple way:

First of all, economical rules doesn't seem to work with the AppStore. The AppStore is an economical chaos. The devs try hard to understand how the AppStore works, but it's an absolutely difficult task.
Second, neither communist nor capitalistic rules apply.
Btw., communism is a totally good idea, but it never works with the greedy human lot. Humans are too stupid to develop a functional system like this. There was never a true and working communistic system. Communism is a dream, not more.
Third: have you really read my posts? Me, not wanting to pay for apps?
Well, the completely opposite is the case. I want realistic and decent prices for both the developers and the customers. Good money for good quality apps.
Let's say a dev works a year to design a good, polished game and releases it for 3 bucks in the AppStore. A few moments later, the first cheapskate idiots show up, telling him why 3 bucks is way too much. This is not only an insult to his hard work, it's also bitter for him. The dev starts becoming unsure and lowers the price to one buck eventually. This buck isn't his alone. First, Apple takes their 30% share, he also has to pay another 20% per copy sold for a graphic designer, componist or other things. That's quite common today. This leaves him around 0.50$. Devs with good apps and a lot of luck, fans and visibility on the store might sell a few 10.000 copies of a game, the normal indie dev has luck when he sells a few thousand copies. Let's say 8.000 copies x 0.50$. For one year hard work. A bitter truth, isn't it? And along are coming more and more cheapskates, scratching the butter from the devs bread. Tell me how he should pay his rent. What about funds he needs for his next project? And then people come and demand more quality games.
When you want quality, you gonna have to pay a decent price for it. That's how it works. Forget everything else.

In the end - why do people pay 10 bucks for a cinema ticket and 2 hours of fun but won't pay 3 bucks for a game that entertains them 10 hours? Isn't this just crazy? My guess: yes.

I need to point out that when I posted those comments in this thread, I was in defensive mode because I thought that kids who are buying apps with their allowance and not with their hard earned cash were the ones that I was going to have to argue with. Reading your post, I realise that you're not one of them and I apologize, but I need some things clarified:

1. Do you read the app store terms and condition (which they change quiet frequently, I might add)? Because I don't and it might shed some light as to how Apple does its business.

2. You said it! On a slightly different topic, I hate those debates between faith vs science or theism vs atheism, because as bright as the speakers might be, they're dumb and blind enough not to have seen the very fact that humans are basically animals. As smart as we can be, the reptilian part of our brain kicks in most of the time.

3. No, what I meant to say is, your earlier post sounded as though you are putting me in the same lot as those who doesn't want to pay money for apps.

The last bit, I agree with most of it apart from the bit when you say "When you want quality, you gonna have to pay a decent price for it. That's how it works. Forget everything else." To me, price does not necessarily equal to quality. Final Fantasy 1 is a poor game if we were to be honest with ourselves, but I still bought it because I'm a big fan and never actually played the game before. But graphic and gameplay-wise, the game is poor compared to across age, zenonia, and what have you which are sold cheaper. FF2 is basically the same but it has a very fascinating story, and it has somewhat eliminated FF1's big problem (play it now, leave it for a month, and you won't know where you need to go the next time you play it). So please explain your way of thinking that putting a price tag of $15 can guarantee a good game, because I've seen great ones but the devs decided to sell them for around $5 for some reason (and we can speculate why). Though I do agree that devs shouldn't put themselves in the position where they feel enclined to sell their apps for a dollar simply because they want recognition.

[MidianGTX]

The App Store terms & conditions say nothing about how it's economics work... Apple don't seem to know how to control that aspect anyway. Hence the mess. Hence developers releasing perfectly good games that instantly get lost and become forgotten. Hence two developers releasing $0.99 games of similar quality, one becoming a millionaire and the other becoming backrupt.

[yongkykun]

The App Store terms & conditions say nothing about how it's economics work... Apple don't seem to know how to control that aspect anyway. Hence the mess. Hence developers releasing perfectly good games that instantly get lost and become forgotten. Hence two developers releasing $0.99 games of similar quality, one becoming a millionaire and the other becoming backrupt.

No point in starting a petition then. Don't think that they'd be bothered with it.

[Teh_Ninja]

tr0llz b3 lurk1ng h4rd

[Vovin]

I guess this really speaks to your character. You troll around this "garbage thread" admitting that you disagree with 95 percent of the people who think price is a legitimate issue, and further attempting to marginalize their viewpoints by saying there is no serious discussion. Yet here you are, all the time, adding nothing of value! Rofl hit it on the head - The "other 5 percent" (you, Backtothis, Midian, Vovin, Dukester, et al) basically get your kicks ganging up on people and feeling obligated to defend the app store's pricing. You come across as a total shill.


Okaaaay. When we are all dumb idiots and you're so smart, why is such a garbage thread in existence?

Do you know what the most stupid thing about this whole "price discussion" is?
Simple: the "discussion" itself. I never understood why there is a discussion. Dp you go to the cinema and discuss the ticket prices? Do you go into the bakery and discuss the ridiculous high cake prices? Or an even better example: do you start a political and economical discussion at your gas station when the oil and gas prices are raising? I doubt it.
So, who are we that we dare discussing the prices which the devs are setting for their apps?
And when Midian, the Duke, backtothis, all others and me are all just trolls, why do the people tend to agree with us instead of you?

I give a shit about all your economical nonsense - all I need is some common sense and a bit sense of fairness. You're lacking this. We have a lot of nice devs here and had a lot of good discussions a while ago, we're their customers and I care about them, at least a bit.
And all these whiners and complainers are doing nothing than repeadly insulting them.

If respect, fairness and a common sense means that I am a troll - I love to be a troll. :)

And all those you named got the balls to raise their voices against the BS you are spreading. Every one of them adds more to this thread with just a single post than you with all your postings together.

Go, learn some respect. You might need it sometimes.

[natedogg213]

Vovin 4,300 posts you 200. He has been on TA for a much longer time so he knows more about the store than you do. That other list of people Backtothis, Midian etc are well respected user and for you to come on here and say things like that is a disgrace. :mad:

More posts = more knowledge? That is some truly headache inducing logic.

[New England Gamer]

I guess this really speaks to your character. You troll around this "garbage thread" admitting that you disagree with 95 percent of the people who think price is a legitimate issue, and further attempting to marginalize their viewpoints by saying there is no serious discussion. Yet here you are, all the time, adding nothing of value! Rofl hit it on the head - The "other 5 percent" (you, Backtothis, Midian, Vovin, Dukester, et al) basically get your kicks ganging up on people and feeling obligated to defend the app store's pricing. You come across as a total shill.

This is rather humorous actually.

First of all, no one is trolling around here - it is an open thread that anyone is free to read and contribute to. Just because you agree or disagree with a point does or does not make you a troll. Laughable.

Second of all, price "discussion" is not a legitimate issue in the least. Devs set it. Consumers pay it or not. Whiners whine. A "discussion" dumping zone thread is not going to change the powers that be within an developer's head. And if you think it will you need to think again. Or you think you are much more powerful than you are - cuz you are a blip on the App Store consumer graph. One user. One user that will not make or break any app.

Third, I have seen no one "marginalize" your view or gang up on you. The members that you mention are the ones trying to get you to understand that you are not the App Store CFO setting all the prices. They are trying to get YOU to see the reality of the situation. Apparently you are so stubborn you will stick to you ideas no matter how wrong they are and will argue just to argue.

The only shill I see is you. What are you trying to prove? What point are you trying to make? You are looking foolish. The thread takes random posts from legit threads and dumps them here rather than deleting them and that makes you think that MOST of TA wants lower prices and consider it a legitimate issue? Because of this one thread? Did you NOT get the point made by countless others to you? If you can't understand this thread then you certainly won't understand why a game CAN be more than 99 cents.

Can I interest you in an Android - their apps are pretty much all free.

[natedogg213]

I give a shit about all your economical nonsense - all I need is some common sense and a bit sense of fairness. You're lacking this. We have a lot of nice devs here and had a lot of good discussions a while ago, we're their customers and I care about them, at least a bit.
And all these whiners and complainers are doing nothing than repeadly insulting them.

When did I refer to economics? You are really losing track of the discussion



And all those you named got the balls to raise their voices against the BS you are spreading. Every one of them adds more to this thread with just a single post than you with all your postings together.

Now you are just rambling and speaking in broad generalizations. You sound so rattled, it's very unbecoming.

[Vovin]

When did I refer to economics? You are really losing track of the discussion

Now you are just rambling and speaking in broad generalizations. You sound so rattled, it's very unbecoming.


Me so sorry, me just dumb Oxford English troll and not understand and not cannot express better. Me only speak simple. U mad now?
Me now go back to cave and eat raw t-bone steak.
But me like to remind that you called names.

[Eli]

As horrible as this thread is, I'm overjoyed that we've managed to detain price arguments to a single thread. Now that people who incessantly need to post 1000+ word diatribes on the value of 99¢ games have an outlet, individual game threads are so much more pleasant to read.

All we need now is a "A game I want is out in New Zealand and I'm really excited and have nothing to say!" thread and we'll really be making headway to readable game threads.

[Vovin]

As horrible as this thread is, I'm overjoyed that we've managed to detain price arguments to a single thread. Now that people who incessantly need to post 1000+ word diatribes on the value of 99¢ games have an outlet, individual game threads are so much more pleasant to read.

All we need now is a "A game I want is out in New Zealand and I'm really excited and have nothing to say!" thread and we'll really be making headway to readable game threads.


The fun thing is that people meanwhile noticed that all their price complaints are landing here. I noticed that the complaints are getting rare lately, not much additions to this thread lately. We are working really hard to keep this thread visible for everyone! The .99$ complainers are starting to die out. It seems as if this thread was a major success for you. :)

[natedogg213]

Second of all, price "discussion" is not a legitimate issue in the least. Devs set it.

So you enter an "iOS pricing discussion" having already determined that it isn't a legitimate issue? Makes sense :rolleyes:


A "discussion" dumping zone thread is not going to change the powers that be within an developer's head. And if you think it will you need to think again. Or you think you are much more powerful than you are - cuz you are a blip on the App Store consumer graph. One user. One user that will not make or break any app.

Thanks for the obvious remarks. Problem is, I don't recall ever intending to change the system, just voiced my opinion on the high cost of FF3.

The members that you mention are the ones trying to get you to understand that you are not the App Store CFO setting all the prices. They are trying to get YOU to see the reality of the situation. Apparently you are so stubborn you will stick to you ideas no matter how wrong they are and will argue just to argue.

No, the only point all of you are trying to get us to understand is that questioning prices is not tolerable to you. That's cool, but at least have a substantive argument.

The only shill I see is you. What are you trying to prove? What point are you trying to make? You are looking foolish. The thread takes random posts from legit threads and dumps them here rather than deleting them and that makes you think that MOST of TA wants lower prices and consider it a legitimate issue? Because of this one thread? Did you NOT get the point made by countless others to you? If you can't understand this thread then you certainly won't understand why a game CAN be more than 99 cents.

Can I interest you in an Android - their apps are pretty much all free.

Again, more generalizations not applicable to my previous comments in this thread. You are clearly lumping me in with every single person who has posted here. I made my point quite awhile ago, try reading up if you didn't grasp it. Right now I am only commenting on the fact that a group of you are sitting around here waiting to argue with anyone who gets tossed into this price discussion garbage bin. Since you don't consider price a legitimate discussion topic, I have nothing more to talk to you about.

Can I interest you in an Android - their apps are pretty much all free.

Um, no. I have an Android phone and they are not all free. They are generally inferior to the iphone versions and are overpriced. I think Doodle Jump cost $3 last time I looked. But don't dare question the price!!

[natedogg213]

Me so sorry, me just dumb Oxford English troll and not understand and not cannot express better. Me only speak simple. U mad now?
Me now go back to cave and eat raw t-bone steak.
But me like to remind that you called names.

Too bad your cave has an internet connection :(

[Vovin]

Too bad your cave has an internet connection :(


Yes. :D Me modern troll, me proud.
Me only sad that your juvenile detention center internets has too.

[Eli]

Do juvenile detention centers really have internet access? That might not be too bad of a deal if so.

[Vovin]

This is rather humorous actually.

First of all, no one is trolling around here - it is an open thread that anyone is free to read and contribute to. Just because you agree or disagree with a point does or does not make you a troll. Laughable.

Second of all, price "discussion" is not a legitimate issue in the least. Devs set it. Consumers pay it or not. Whiners whine. A "discussion" dumping zone thread is not going to change the powers that be within an developer's head. And if you think it will you need to think again. Or you think you are much more powerful than you are - cuz you are a blip on the App Store consumer graph. One user. One user that will not make or break any app.

Third, I have seen no one "marginalize" your view or gang up on you. The members that you mention are the ones trying to get you to understand that you are not the App Store CFO setting all the prices. They are trying to get YOU to see the reality of the situation. Apparently you are so stubborn you will stick to you ideas no matter how wrong they are and will argue just to argue.

The only shill I see is you. What are you trying to prove? What point are you trying to make? You are looking foolish. The thread takes random posts from legit threads and dumps them here rather than deleting them and that makes you think that MOST of TA wants lower prices and consider it a legitimate issue? Because of this one thread? Did you NOT get the point made by countless others to you? If you can't understand this thread then you certainly won't understand why a game CAN be more than 99 cents.

Can I interest you in an Android - their apps are pretty much all free.



Good points, NEG.

Only like to add that all these price discussions just have the reason that some people want the bread buttered on both sides and also jam on it.
All these discussions because of greed. Cheap apps mean you can buy more. And some people never get enough.

[Vovin]

Do juvenile detention centers really have internet access? That might not be too bad of a deal if so.


In Germany, yes. It's more like hotels today. TV, Radio, Consoles like X-Box and stuff, Training Rooms, Internet rooms, everything. Keeping them entertained means they don't make shit.

Here, look, found an cool American center:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/jdr/jdc/jdc08phototour.htm

[natedogg213]

In Germany, yes. It's more like hotels today. TV, Radio, Consoles like X-Box and stuff, Training Rooms, Internet rooms, everything. Kerping them entertained means they don't make shit.

Sounds like you had a good time there!

[Vovin]

Sounds like you had a good time there!



Sorry, me never there, me no hiphoprapgangsta like you.

[Eli]

Sounds like you had a good time there!

Future societies will study this post for entire lifetimes, endlessly debating and dissecting the ultimate burn.

[backtothis]

Lol what the hell? 4 pages of new posts.

Um, since when did I just shut people down without addressing everything they've said? More than half my posts here are over 500 words and address everything that was in the post. And what's wrong with paying $10.25 for a movie ticket? I go every single week, or nearly so to the movies with my girlfriend. Think again if you think I'm on my parent's payroll yongk. I work 3 days a week to earn every bit of the money that's spent on entertainment and clothing for myself. Although my parents make the big seven, they taught me a long time ago to make my own life for myself. Hell, I'm Asian after all, Chinese actually. Imagine the expectations. I'm still in high school and already earn $20.75 per hour. I'll be going to UPenn next year to study economics. I really don't know who you guys are accusing here when you're the one making all kinds of ignorant comments on things you clearly don't understand. I've studied the shifts in market behavior in the AppStore for hours in the past two years after being a customer of six months initially and have an incredibly knowledgable economic background. I'm not just spewing shit that just randomly spawns from my mind. I'm stating facts from evidence. Half of the arguments on the other side are speculations and sentiments that have largely gone unproven. Please just spare me.

[Vovin]

Is Canabalt worth $2.99?

[Vovin]

Lol what the hell? 4 pages of new posts.

Um, since when did I just shut people down without addressing everything they've said? More than half my posts here are over 500 words and address everything that was in the post. And what's wrong with paying $10.25 for a movie ticket? I go every single week, or nearly so to the movies with my girlfriend. Think again if you think I'm on my parent's payroll yongk. I work 3 days a week to earn every bit of the money that's spent on entertainment and clothing for myself. Although my parents make the big seven, they taught me a long time ago to make my own life for myself. Hell, I'm Asian after all, Chinese actually. Imagine the expectations. I'm still in high school and already earn $20.75 per hour. I'll be going to UPenn next year to study economics. I really don't know who you guys are accusing here when you're the one making all kinds of ignorant comments on things you clearly don't understand. I've studied the shifts in market behavior in the AppStore for hours in the past two years after being a customer of six months initially and have an incredibly knowledgable economic background. I'm not just spewing shit that just randomly spawns from my mind. I'm stating facts from evidence. Half of the arguments on the other side are speculations and sentiments that have largely gone unproven. Please just spare me.


Hey, buddy, I missed you today. We had a lot of fun here. :)

[backtothis]

I was taking the AP for US Government, rofl.

[natedogg213]

Future societies will study this post for entire lifetimes, endlessly debating and dissecting the ultimate burn.

Shouldn't you be posting the latest and greatest iOS games for my viewing pleasure? Get back to work you slacker.

[natedogg213]

That's debatable.

Hey, I know! Let's debate it!

Dukester, you haven't debated anything to this point.

I thought Canabalt was worth that much when I bought it back in early 2010 but now it is just another endless runner worthy of the dollar bin. Come to think of it, did it ever get updated with Gamecenter? If so, I may need to reinstall.

[backtothis]

Dukester, you haven't debated anything to this point.

I thought Canabalt was worth that much when I bought it back in early 2010 but now it is just another endless runner worthy of the dollar bin. Come to think of it, did it ever get updated with Gamecenter? If so, I may need to reinstall.

True enough. Yes, it got the update sometime last year actually.

[MidianGTX]

Lol what the hell? 4 pages of new posts.

Um, since when did I just shut people down without addressing everything they've said? More than half my posts here are over 500 words and address everything that was in the post. And what's wrong with paying $10.25 for a movie ticket? I go every single week, or nearly so to the movies with my girlfriend. Think again if you think I'm on my parent's payroll yongk. I work 3 days a week to earn every bit of the money that's spent on entertainment and clothing for myself. Although my parents make the big seven, they taught me a long time ago to make my own life for myself. Hell, I'm Asian after all, Chinese actually. Imagine the expectations. I'm still in high school and already earn $20.75 per hour. I'll be going to UPenn next year to study economics. I really don't know who you guys are accusing here when you're the one making all kinds of ignorant comments on things you clearly don't understand. I've studied the shifts in market behavior in the AppStore for hours in the past two years after being a customer of six months initially and have an incredibly knowledgable economic background. I'm not just spewing shit that just randomly spawns from my mind. I'm stating facts from evidence. Half of the arguments on the other side are speculations and sentiments that have largely gone unproven. Please just spare me.

This post is one giant ego boost, but still pretty impressive. Good on you :p

I can't even remember if we're on the same team when it comes to App Store pricing... reading back through this topic is too headache-inducing.

[Varrack]

Backtothis - I hope you learn some tact by the time you get out of college and enter the real world. It's great and all you come from a wealthy family and are going to an ivy, but I can guarantee you most people in life could care less who your parents are, how rich they are or that you graduated from an ivy. That may go far in high school, but if you take that attitude into real life, you are going to have some problems.

[backtothis]

This post is one giant ego boost, but still pretty impressive. Good on you :p

I can't even remember if we're on the same team when it comes to App Store pricing... reading back through this topic is too headache-inducing.

I just believe in fair prices. When a developer charges unfairly, we'll know. Demand drives the iOS economy since there's an unlimited supply. I don't think there's anything wrong with FFIII costing $15.99. Considering it stayed in the top 100 for over a month and is still high in top grossing, I'm guessing consumers generally feel the same. I'm not asking for higher prices by any means, just fair ones. Quality merits higher prices.

Edit: Awesome that more people who've not read more than 5 posts are joining into the convo again. I don't post anything unless it's a response to someone else's post. Thanks for sharing your opinion though. From where I grew up, Houston, money drives everything. My attitude? You don't know anything about me so just save it.

[Vovin]

I just believe in fair prices. When a developer charges unfairly, we'll know. Demand drives the iOS economy since there's an unlimited supply. I don't think there's anything wrong with FFIII costing $15.99. Considering it stayed in the top 100 for over a month and is still high in top grossing, I'm guessing consumers generally feel the same. I'm not asking for higher prices by any means, just fair ones. Quality merits higher prices.

Edit: Awesome that more people who've not read more than 5 posts are joining into the convo again. I don't post anything unless it's a response to someone else's post. Thanks for sharing your opinion though. From where I grew up, Houston, money drives everything. My attitude? You don't know anything about me so just save it.


But you were really bragging a bit... :D

[MidianGTX]

I just believe in fair prices. When a developer charges unfairly, we'll know. Demand drives the iOS economy since there's an unlimited supply. I don't think there's anything wrong with FFIII costing $15.99. Considering it stayed in the top 100 for over a month and is still high in top grossing, I'm guessing consumers generally feel the same. I'm not asking for higher prices by any means, just fair ones. Quality merits higher prices.

That's a yes then :)

I didn't buy FFIII because I already own it, but I think it's worthy of the price tag. I did buy Canabalt though :D

[backtothis]

But you were really bragging a bit... :D

You only need to read into it oh so much. Tired of people giving me that bullshit about being a teenager and depending on your parents for everything and knowing nothing about the 'real world.' Enough with that.

[Vovin]

You only need to read into it oh so much. Tired of people giving me that bullshit about being a teenager and depending on your parents for everything and knowing nothing about the 'real world.' Enough with that.


Kidding :p

Oh, oh, oh!... let's stop with this price discussion!
Looks like a Gameloft-0.99$-sale is coming up, Settlers, Avatar HD and Let's Golf HD are just a buck... hooray for fair prices! :D

[drelbs]

Well I paid $0.99 for Canabalt and I still don't play it much.

Probably would have gotten more use out of it's soundtrack as a music download for $0.99...

Aargh, I hear Windows XP bells!!! (Coworker must be reimaging another mobile system.)

[natedogg213]

That's a yes then :)

I didn't buy FFIII because I already own it, but I think it's worthy of the price tag. I did buy Canabalt though :D

FFIII's release feels like such a long time ago. Hard to believe that SE hasn't dropped the price on it yet. I figured that would happen for sure when they launched the ipad version for only a buck more.

Anyways, now that the dust has settled, do you all still believe FFIII was fairly priced at $16, when compared to the costs and quality of other premier titles in the app store?

[MidianGTX]

FFIII's release feels like such a long time ago. Hard to believe that SE hasn't dropped the price on it yet. I figured that would happen for sure when they launched the ipad version for only a buck more.

Anyways, now that the dust has settled, do you all still believe FFIII was fairly priced at $16, when compared to the costs and quality of other premier titles in the app store?

Compared to other games it's difficult to say, and that's probably where the arguments come from. There are so many games on the App Store underselling themselves that it makes other games look greedy when they launch at what the developer thinks is a fair price.

Looking at everything the App Store has to offer, I'd admit that I can probably get just as much fun spending half the amount on other games, so in that respect it seems high. If we were to pretend the App Store didn't exist though, and someone asked me if an official FFIII port was worth $16 I'd say hell yeah. It's only through other games playing the race-to-the-bottom game that prices like this look wrong in the eyes of some customers.

I'm with backtothis when it comes to fair pricing for the simple reason that the App Store needs money injected back into it. Bar the few lucky successes like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope most devs barely break even due to the way the App Store has become and as a result they're dropping like flies. Who knows how many brilliant ideas we're missing out on because some teams can't raise enough capital to develop their second app? Give and ye shall recieve!

[drelbs]

I'm with backtothis when it comes to fair pricing for the simple reason that the App Store needs money injected back into it. Bar the few lucky successes like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope most devs barely break even due to the way the App Store has become and as a result they're dropping like flies. Who knows how many brilliant ideas we're missing out on because some teams can't raise enough capital to develop their second app? Give and ye shall recieve!

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! ;)

I'm finding myself much more often being willing to pay more for an app or IAP simply because I want the app/developer to succeed because I like what they did (or are doing, or might do...) I gave up pirating a loong time ago because I realized that if I like something and want more of it, I better support it.

Vote with your wallet, people!

[Eli]

Shouldn't you be posting the latest and greatest iOS games for my viewing pleasure? Get back to work you slacker.

I'm busy getting ready to move from Chicago to Los Angeles!

[red12355]

Wow. I must say, I've lost a lot of respect for some of the members of TA (not that it matters to anyone, I guess).

Just wow. Never expected some people to be so hostile.

[backtothis]

@Midian: To be fair, you're exactly right. It's indeed hard to determine if it's a fair price or not. After seeing games like Dead Space and NBA Jam drop to a dollar, it's really a hard call. EA is indeed putting out some pretty high quality games now, but they're still the leader of the race to the bottom effect like they've been since the start of the movement. I guess it's just up to consumers. I know it's been argued before, but it's indeed an issue of value. I know the market may be corrupted if every high quality game started charging over $10, but until that happens, we shouldn't worry too much. Plus, like I said, demand drives this market, and I don't believe iOS customers would tolerate such a dramatic increase in prices after nearly three years of price level decline.

Have a safe move Hodapp. What a big move that is. One of the coldest places in the US to the best weather the US has to offer, not to mention the beaches and the ladies :).

[phattestfatty]

It's a branch of economic thought, the dominant one here in the US. Lol...time for Economics 101? I thought you were in college...economics is a required credit here in Houston for high school seniors.

haha lol no freakin way. I have a sister that is out of college, but I'm still early on in high school. I'm not dumb in any way, very smart actually, but the reason I might seem older is probably cause I don't post stupid things for the most part.... haha lol. I was thinking of taking economics this summer at nerd camp but my parents kinda made me do some dumb writing course. oh yeah, and sorry to pull this quot outta the dumps, had a fever last night so I'm just getting around to checking stuff. BTW, this may sound stupid, but first thing I saw when you said keynesian was WTF?!?! never heard of that? I thought he was asian?!? lol. :D

[backtothis]

Wow. I must say, I've lost a lot of respect for some of the members of TA (not that it matters to anyone, I guess).

Just wow. Never expected some people to be so hostile.

Oh? Do tell.

@PF: Ah, that makes a lot more sense. It's fine. LOL AT THE END OF YOUR POST.

[phattestfatty]

Lol what the hell? 4 pages of new posts.

Um, since when did I just shut people down without addressing everything they've said? More than half my posts here are over 500 words and address everything that was in the post. And what's wrong with paying $10.25 for a movie ticket? I go every single week, or nearly so to the movies with my girlfriend. Think again if you think I'm on my parent's payroll yongk. I work 3 days a week to earn every bit of the money that's spent on entertainment and clothing for myself. Although my parents make the big seven, they taught me a long time ago to make my own life for myself. Hell, I'm Asian after all, Chinese actually. Imagine the expectations. I'm still in high school and already earn $20.75 per hour. I'll be going to UPenn next year to study economics. I really don't know who you guys are accusing here when you're the one making all kinds of ignorant comments on things you clearly don't understand. I've studied the shifts in market behavior in the AppStore for hours in the past two years after being a customer of six months initially and have an incredibly knowledgable economic background. I'm not just spewing shit that just randomly spawns from my mind. I'm stating facts from evidence. Half of the arguments on the other side are speculations and sentiments that have largely gone unproven. Please just spare me.
wharton?!!? DAMN... my sister got rejected from there, and only there. and what kind of job do you have now?!?!

[backtothis]

wharton?!!? DAMN... my sister got rejected from there, and only there. and what kind of job do you have now?!?!

Yessir. I'm interning for a company haha.

[phattestfatty]

Yessir. I'm interning for a company haha.

I thought interns are unpaid?

[backtothis]

I thought interns are unpaid?

Depends what kind of intern you're doing. Two summers ago I interned at MD Anderson, and that was unpaid, pretty much volunteer work while learning the stuff. This is different. You actually help provide services for the company that count in the calculated earned revenue.

[phattestfatty]

Depends what kind of intern you're doing. Two summers ago I interned at MD Anderson, and that was unpaid, pretty much volunteer work while learning the stuff. This is different. You actually help provide services for the company that count in the calculated earned revenue.

ahh aight. yea... so over summers, what do you think would help to get into top colleges? I'm going to nerd camp this year, prolly checking out colleges next year, but.... do you think interns, or what helps the most?....

[backtothis]

ahh aight. yea... so over summers, what do you think would help to get into top colleges? I'm going to nerd camp this year, prolly checking out colleges next year, but.... do you think interns, or what helps the most?....

Alright, last post on the topic. This really isn't the thread for this. I don't know man; no one can really answer that to guarantee you getting in whatever college. In the summer, I'd spend most of my time taking it easy, but get your volunteering hours in whether it's at a local library or interning somewhere. Camp is alright as well as long as it's not for more than a month. But yeah, take it easy, and work hard during the year. You got time.

[natedogg213]

I'm busy getting ready to move from Chicago to Los Angeles!

Sweet! I just moved from Chicago to Denver. Were you in the city or around the burbs of Chicago? I commuted downtown from the Downer's Grove area.

[phattestfatty]

Alright, last post on the topic. This really isn't the thread for this. I don't know man; no one can really answer that to guarantee you getting in whatever college. In the summer, I'd spend most of my time taking it easy, but get your volunteering hours in whether it's at a local library or interning somewhere. Camp is alright as well as long as it's not for more than a month. But yeah, take it easy, and work hard during the year. You got time.

haha lol aight thanks. Of course, that's the opposite of what my parents would tell me. Work hard during the summer and work hard during year. sorry about derailing THIS thread. :D

[yongkykun]

I just believe in fair prices. When a developer charges unfairly, we'll know. Demand drives the iOS economy since there's an unlimited supply. I don't think there's anything wrong with FFIII costing $15.99. Considering it stayed in the top 100 for over a month and is still high in top grossing, I'm guessing consumers generally feel the same. I'm not asking for higher prices by any means, just fair ones. Quality merits higher prices.

Yes, but NOT the other way around. Which has been my argument thus far, my liege.

[backtothis]

Yes, but NOT the other way around. Which has been my argument thus far, my liege.

It does too apply vice versa..the low quality games we generally see are either free or $0.99. I don't understand how you don't think so..these games can't get any cheaper. $0.99 is baseline price. Anyways, Midian posted a good post somewhere after the one you quoted.

[yongkykun]

It does too apply vice versa..the low quality games we generally see are either free or $0.99. I don't understand how you don't think so..these games can't get any cheaper. $0.99 is baseline price. Anyways, Midian posted a good post somewhere after the one you quoted.

Because you're so fixated on the cheaper ones. Look at the expensive ones as well, only some of them are of good quality. Also, note that most of the expensive ones are either ports (i.e. Big Fish games, Battle for Eustrath, Square Enix Games, EA Games, etc.) or endorsement games (don't know the proper way to call it) where you take a pre-existing franchise and use it to promote its console counterpart (i.e. Mass Effects Galaxy, MGS Touch, Dead Space, Ultimate Mortal Kombat, etc.) which basically means, they already have the concept, idea, and story handed down to them, it's just a matter of adapting them to the iOS interface.

I don't know why $.99 is the baseline price but we do know that most of the smaller devs do have a day job and develop apps in their spare time. Which is why we have so many of them and a large portion of the games on App Store is a copy of a copycat of a pre-existing game (Gameloft is a bit of an execption) and they don't bother selling much of them because they can still pay their bills from their day job. So screw them! Real iOS games are the ones that are made by proper game developers and they still do sell some apps at $0.99 simply because iOS is not their main concern.

PS: Great job on getting a paid internship.

[backtothis]

Hmm, well the thing is though, while many gamers indeed look to the iOS for casual games that fall into the pick-up-and-play and one-more-go categories, there's quite an audience that's also looking for higher end "console-quality" titles. Companies who have the potential don't want to allocate the resources to create a brilliant franchise for the iOS and have no one buy it. In the video game industry, the iOS is still generally considered unproven, so for now, I think getting what quality titles we do see on the iOS, even if they're ports from large corporations, is a good thing. They're leading the way in testing the waters of how the AppStore can actually be a place of profit for bigger companies.

It's just that when the biggest companies have monthly sales on very high end games for a dollar, everything becomes very murky. When a game like Dead Space has the same price as Doodle Jump, it's just really hard to figure out how the market behaves and if it's actually worth investing in the iOS market. I can't quite remember when EA and Gameloft began the trend, but I don't think it's brought us to the best place. Only rarely do we see an equally outstanding higher end game from an Indie developer, like Real Racing 2, World of Goo, Superbrothers, etc. The reason why these developers all have do have day jobs is because of the race to the bottom effect of the AppStore. It's a gamble going in with a game that you've spent a lot of time on and charge only a dollar for it. If this wasn't the case, we might, and I emphasize might, see more developers that actually develop games for a living move towards the AppStore.

Once again, I need to say, I'm not asking for higher prices. I'm asking for fair prices if, and only if, more higher quality games hit the AppStore that we love. Thanks by the way, your last sentence, that is.

[triggywiggy]

Because you're so fixated on the cheaper ones. Look at the expensive ones as well, only some of them are of good quality. Also, note that most of the expensive ones are either ports (i.e. Big Fish games, Battle for Eustrath, Square Enix Games, EA Games, etc.) or endorsement games (don't know the proper way to call it) where you take a pre-existing franchise and use it to promote its console counterpart (i.e. Mass Effects Galaxy, MGS Touch, Dead Space, Ultimate Mortal Kombat, etc.) which basically means, they already have the concept, idea, and story handed down to them, it's just a matter of adapting them to the iOS interface.

I don't know why $.99 is the baseline price but we do know that most of the smaller devs do have a day job and develop apps in their spare time. Which is why we have so many of them and a large portion of the games on App Store is a copy of a copycat of a pre-existing game (Gameloft is a bit of an execption) and they don't bother selling much of them because they can still pay their bills from their day job. So screw them! Real iOS games are the ones that are made by proper game developers and they still do sell some apps at $0.99 simply because iOS is not their main concern.

PS: Great job on getting a paid internship.

I don't think its the games that are the problem i think its you. You expect high quality games/ports. But there always going to be a lesser quality to that on other devices/consoles. Due to the screen size and programing unit they are powered by. It seems you expect every game to be well made. But you must remember the app store is a start place for many new developers and it takes a while for them to get there games and prices up to the standard that they should be.

Take Halfbrick for example. They started as a very small team when they produced Blast Off, That game did not succeed very well causing the studio to go back to the drawing board and produce another game. But they now knew thanks to Blast Off what was needed. I high quality Arcade Pick Up and Play Title so they developed Fruit Ninja. It was a success. This less to Monster Dash that though it was not as popular ad Fruit Ninja was the star of a Series of games for the company. They were using Monster Dash's Character in there next game "Age Of Zombies". This was to lore those fans that bought Monster Dash and loved the character Barry Steakfries to go and get the new title. The gameplay also got fans that liked Minigore to play it. This expanding the fan base. They also found that by upping the games price they can gain a better profit but still attract a good amount of users.

[12yam]

Cool story

[backtothis]

Cool story

bro?

[phattestfatty]

bro?

sis?
bra?
broha?
brosif?
brotato?

[MidianGTX]

I don't know why $.99 is the baseline price but we do know that most of the smaller devs do have a day job and develop apps in their spare time. Which is why we have so many of them and a large portion of the games on App Store is a copy of a copycat of a pre-existing game (Gameloft is a bit of an execption) and they don't bother selling much of them because they can still pay their bills from their day job. So screw them! Real iOS games are the ones that are made by proper game developers and they still do sell some apps at $0.99 simply because iOS is not their main concern..

Oh please. Now you're trying to tell us that indie games aren't unique any more? What about Flight Control, Touchgrind, Cut the Rope, Angry Birds, Tiny Wings, World of Goo and Doodle God? All big sellers, all extremely popular. If anything it's the big name games that are scared to experiment and like to stay safely within their established genres; Street Figher, Call of Duty and Need for Speed haven't done anything especially new in forever.

You know how much money it takes to create a game right? Yes, indie devs probably have day jobs, but their salary is getting sucked away by the development process and putting a good quality game on the App Store is going to cost tens of thousands. That's not the kind of money people are prepared to just throw away without a fight.

TouchArcade is one of the biggest indie-supporting websites on the internet. The forum in particular is packed with hundreds of developers trying to scrape a living by doing what they love and the last thing they want is to read something as ignorant and disrespectful as "screw them".

What you call "real" iOS games, I call stripped down versions of their real console counterparts. If you want innovation on the App Store you need to look towards the little guys.

[yemi]

The very people who complain about quality are the same ones who causes lack of quality. Developers arent here to serve anyone they are here to make great games and a decent living. What I see here is making the Nintendo Chairman sound right. He said IOS people will start devaluing a developer work and you people are proving him right.

[natedogg213]

Real iOS games are the ones that are made by proper game developers and they still do sell some apps at $0.99 simply because iOS is not their main concern.

This is absurd. You are saying that the "real" iOS games are the ones made by companies that do it as an afterthought? You are wrong, iOS gaming is serious business now. There is a reason that EA is buying everything in sight. These big game devs are or should be salivating at the success of small time companies such as Rovio, who currently has a 37,000% profit with Angry Birds. Do you even know what you are complaining about?

[yongkykun]

Backtothis, thanks mate, you made a good point there, I wish I learned english sooner, because learning when you're already an adult is a real hassle. To prove my point, take a gander at these posters I've quoted below.

I don't think its the games that are the problem i think its you. You expect high quality games/ports.

Miss the point there again, I never did ask for higher quality game/port. I was giving examples.

Oh please. Now you're trying to tell us that indie games aren't unique any more? What about Flight Control, Touchgrind, Cut the Rope, Angry Birds, Tiny Wings, World of Goo and Doodle God? All big sellers, all extremely popular. If anything it's the big name games that are scared to experiment and like to stay safely within their established genres; Street Figher, Call of Duty and Need for Speed haven't done anything especially new in forever.

What you call "real" iOS games, I call stripped down versions of their real console counterparts. If you want innovation on the App Store you need to look towards the little guys.

No, I was not being specific, so, sorry about that. I was referring to devs who use artworks from other games or movie posters and create games with little to no innovation whatsoever. Original games are plentiful in the App Store, developed by devs that we never even heard of before and they are the ones who made hits like Angry Birds, Flight Control, etc. And I WAS against porting in the previous post and still AM, SF4, CoD, NFS are the ones that fall under the category of what I call "endorsement games". And the FF games as well, though to their defence, FF3 is quiet good and they did put quiet a lot of effort in revamping the graphics for the iPad and retina display, and I love the franchise (mainly due to Nobuo Uematsu's musical genius), which brings me to another point, we can dislike ports, but there are fans of a specific franchise and chances are that is what those devs are after, as well as promoting the console version, of course.

[amn624]

Hehe, that's a cool German card game. I loved to play that.

$5 is way too steep. pass. :mad:

[Vovin]

$5 is way too steep. pass. :mad:



Cool, they've added fuel to the fire!... but wait -

Hey, I can't bash on him, he's a buddy from the Orions 2 thread. :(

Bad luck, my troll career came quickly, now it went away quickly.

[MidianGTX]

No, I was not being specific, so, sorry about that. I was referring to devs who use artworks from other games or movie posters and create games with little to no innovation whatsoever. Original games are plentiful in the App Store, developed by devs that we never even heard of before and they are the ones who made hits like Angry Birds, Flight Control, etc. And I WAS against porting in the previous post and still AM, SF4, CoD, NFS are the ones that fall under the category of what I call "endorsement games".

Alright, we'll put that one down to a misunderstanding :p

[natedogg213]

... no one really gives a sh*t about where you think the price point on an iPad card game should be.

If nobody gave a shit, price comments would remain in whatever game thread they began in. The mods care for moving it, and you care for following it here. I find it amusing how such a little comment like that is swiped up and sent here. The mods here really have too much time on their hands.

[phattestfatty]

If nobody gave a shit, price comments would remain in whatever game thread they began in. The mods care for moving it, and you care for following it here. I find it amusing how such a little comment like that is swiped up and sent here. The mods here really have too much time on their hands.

umm they move it here exactly because nobody give a shit. Nobody wants to read through 50 pages of bitching about prices when they are at a thread to read up about a game. They want to read about how it runs, how it looks, how fun it is, etc. They don't wanna hear.. 5$?!?!:eek:THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH!!! THESE DEVS ARE GREEDY! LET'S BOYCOTT!!!

[natedogg213]

umm they move it here exactly because nobody give a shit. Nobody wants to read through 50 pages of bitching about prices when they are at a thread to read up about a game. They want to read about how it runs, how it looks, how fun it is, etc. They don't wanna hear.. 5$?!?!:eek:THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH!!! THESE DEVS ARE GREEDY! LET'S BOYCOTT!!!

If I didn't care about a messy room, why clean it up? If I didn't care about school, why go? If people didn't care about the price comments, they would ignore it and move onto the next comment. They care so they move it. And if there are 50 pages of bitching, I think the developer probably does have a pricing issue. Since I first heard you all talk about people whining about prices in the Games section, I have kept an eye out for it and have hardly noticed any complaining at all except in the MMOPRG and IAP rooms, where price can directly affect gameplay.

[phattestfatty]

If I didn't care about a messy room, why clean it up? If I didn't care about school, why go? If people didn't care about the price comments, they would ignore it and move onto the next comment. They care so they move it. And if there are 50 pages of bitching, I think the developer probably does have a pricing issue. Since I first heard you all talk about people whining about prices in the Games section, I have kept an eye out for it and have hardly noticed any complaining at all except in the MMOPRG and IAP rooms, where price can directly affect gameplay.

ummm the mods move the crap posts here so that people can ACTUALLY find posts about the game? duh? and honestly, 50 was an exaggeration for one thread unless it's massive or it's this thread, which is also massive. But the dev prolly doesn't have a pricing problem when a ton of people agree that it is well worth the money and only a select few that complain if an app A. Isn't nearly awesome enough for their tastes, or B. is priced at something that they deems is too high (which for some is higher but others can be 2.99 to 4.99 and up). Point is, people don't care for the posts complaining about prices. They want to know about the game. your analogy was terribly dumb, btw. the point is, people DO care about the FORUMS but DO NOT care about the COMPLAINING. btw, most people don't care about school but still go? IDK where you were trying to go with that?

[backtothis]

If I didn't care about a messy room, why clean it up? If I didn't care about school, why go? If people didn't care about the price comments, they would ignore it and move onto the next comment. They care so they move it. And if there are 50 pages of bitching, I think the developer probably does have a pricing issue. Since I first heard you all talk about people whining about prices in the Games section, I have kept an eye out for it and have hardly noticed any complaining at all except in the MMOPRG and IAP rooms, where price can directly affect gameplay.
Looks good thanks for the post. Gonna wait till its a buck to but it though ;)
Fresh post from the Thor game thread in the upcoming games section. It's hard to believe you don't see these posts..check out any games that aren't $0.99..

You're right, the mods care about these posts, but not about their contents. They just care about getting rid of them as fast as possible to remove the build-up of useless posts in a thread that should be about the game itself. Ouch looks like the majority doesn't think Canabalt is worth it anymore, lol.

[natedogg213]

ummm the mods move the crap posts here so that people can ACTUALLY find posts about the game? duh? and honestly, 50 was an exaggeration for one thread unless it's massive or it's this thread, which is also massive. But the dev prolly doesn't have a pricing problem when a ton of people agree that it is well worth the money and only a select few that complain if an app A. Isn't nearly awesome enough for their tastes, or B. is priced at something that they deems is too high (which for some is higher but others can be 2.99 to 4.99 and up). Point is, people don't care for the posts complaining about prices. They want to know about the game. your analogy was terribly dumb, btw. the point is, people DO care about the FORUMS but DO NOT care about the COMPLAINING. btw, most people don't care about school but still go? IDK where you were trying to go with that?

I'm pretty sure I was only talking about you all caring so much about price comments. But it's okay, I don't mind your aimless ramblings and stating of the obvious. A couple goals for college: learn to use question marks appropriately and if you are going to act like a little kid and call something someone says "dumb," perhaps include an explanation why?

Lastly, saying that people don't care about the complaining may be true in some instances (like myself) but you are here engaging every price complaint that comes your way. Ah the hypocrisy. It's obvious that you care, the real question is "why!?"

[natedogg213]

Fresh post from the Thor game thread in the upcoming games section. It's hard to believe you don't see these posts..check out any games that aren't $0.99..

You're right, the mods care about these posts, but not about their contents. They just care about getting rid of them as fast as possible to remove the build-up of useless posts in a thread that should be about the game itself. Ouch looks like the majority doesn't think Canabalt is worth it anymore, lol.

But that is not necessarily a complaint, just a useless post. Of course nobody cares about that guys personal decision to wait to buy a game at a lower price. So, send it on over here! I guess I've just seen so much bullshit in forums that I can just skip past those comments without even thinking about it. My only concern would be when a legitimate price related question comes up - is it just trashed as well? Like I've said before, the extent of my price complaint has been isolated to this thread in regard to ff3, a game I have made a strong argument against being overpriced in relation to other premiere titles.

But if people complain in the FF3 game thread, should their comments be categorically dismissed and relegated to the garbage. Whether you agree or not, complaints can send a message. Take kindle e-books as an example. Some publishers are unwilling to accept that people don't want to pay the same amount for a digital book as a new release hardback. Customers realize that it doesn't make economic sense and often revolt by giving one star amazon reviews and driving down the overall score, which can be extremely detrimental. I bet the publisher may think twice next time they do that. I am not inciting people to complain, app store prices are awesome! But if square Enix thinks it can set the high price ceiling with an updated version of an antiquated game, I'll voice my opinion (which I clearly have...)

[phattestfatty]

I'm pretty sure I was only talking about you all caring so much about price comments. But it's okay, I don't mind your aimless ramblings and stating of the obvious. A couple goals for college: learn to use question marks appropriately and if you are going to act like a little kid and call something someone says "dumb," perhaps include an explanation why?

Lastly, saying that people don't care about the complaining may be true in some instances (like myself) but you are here engaging every price complaint that comes your way. Ah the hypocrisy. It's obvious that you care, the real question is "why!?"

Ahaha correcting my mistakes. Please tell me that was a joke. It is clear you were not talking about me and the people trying to make others realize the invalidity of their arguments due to your mention of the mods in previous posts and talking of moving posts, since only mods can do that. And with the question marks, do you ever talk to people? Do you message people? Cause this is informal; we aren't using ?'s correctly! Ooh!! The sky is falling! Lol. I do in fact know proper grammar, but hell, who cares as long as thy understand?.... And it was dumb for many reasons. 1st analogy: throwing a nice dinner party, but the living room's a mess. You may not care about the room , but you care about the bigger picture. Same on TA. If it weren't for these price posts, Idk what else would be bad about TA. And the second... Well that would take an entire essay to say everything wrong with it.
Btw, I post here occasionally if I see something completely over the top... Idek how to say it. And every one? Far from it. I have a max of 10 posts in this thread. And you? THAT is hypocrisy at it's best.
P.s. I'm on an iPod. Excuse any errors. Plus, please let's keep this civilized... I've seen what has happened in this thread before. ;) didn't mean to be a d btw, just debating :D

[phattestfatty]

But that is not necessarily a complaint, just a useless post. Of course nobody cares about that guys personal decision to wait to buy a game at a lower price. So, send it on over here! I guess I've just seen so much bullshit in forums that I can just skip past those comments without even thinking about it. My only concern would be when a legitimate price related question comes up - is it just trashed as well? Like I've said before, the extent of my price complaint has been isolated to this thread in regard to ff3, a game I have made a strong argument against being overpriced in relation to other premiere titles.

But if people complain in the FF3 game thread, should their comments be categorically dismissed and relegated to the garbage. Whether you agree or not, complaints can send a message. Take kindle e-books as an example. Some publishers are unwilling to accept that people don't want to pay the same amount for a digital book as a new release hardback. Customers realize that it doesn't make economic sense and often revolt by giving one star amazon reviews and driving down the overall score, which can be extremely detrimental. I bet the publisher may think twice next time they do that. I am not inciting people to complain, app store prices are awesome! But if square Enix thinks it can set the high price ceiling with an updated version of an antiquated game, I'll voice my opinion (which I clearly have...)

well, it all depends on what it is compared to. Only if you compared to iOS games is it overpriced. And even then, it is still rather reasonable. In fact, don't get me wrong, I love iOS prices, but many iOS games are, in fact, underpriced. Compare it to the D.S. version of lesser quality or any other game of similar quality on other devices, and it is severely underpriced. IMO, the only way to go is to compare it to your salary. At minimum wage, this should take, what, 3 hours to make, at most? And it gives you many many hours of entertainment. However, you should really only own an idevice if you are making decent money, as these are better ways to spend money if you don't. For kids, this may seem like a lot, but really? there are contests within our own forums, beta tests, and gift cards as presents or that you could earn. As a kid, you don't have to pay for anything at all really. Hell, I'll admit, I can't work quite yet, soon, but not yet, and the only giftcards I ever had handed to me were during christmas in 09. 50$ that was mostly all spent. But, hell, there are plenty of ways to get money for iOS games' cheap prices. I can't really say anything but junk apps are overpriced.
Sorry about another rant. ;)

[crex]

Holy crap! What just happened in this thread? Last time I checked there were only about 1,000 posts.

Damn. You really miss a lot in a week.

[gunxsword]

well, it all depends on what it is compared to. Only if you compared to iOS games is it overpriced. And even then, it is still rather reasonable. In fact, don't get me wrong, I love iOS prices, but many iOS games are, in fact, underpriced. Compare it to the D.S. version of lesser quality or any other game of similar quality on other devices, and it is severely underpriced.

AGREED!!!
Though the thing is, most portable console games are indeed made by a team of devs who's jobs are making games. Most apple store games however, aren't. Simple apps made by ppl with jobs in hopes of earning extra income by selling crap that nobody actually buys.
Though the benefit of this flood of crappy apps brings heavy competition and as customers, we ultimately get to pay less even for apps that are supposed to worth 2-5 times their admission price.

I can't really say anything but junk apps are overpriced.

Parody: since when did you have to pay for junk?
Answer: APP STORE!!! :D

[New England Gamer]

But that is not necessarily a complaint, just a useless post. Of course nobody cares about that guys personal decision to wait to buy a game at a lower price. So, send it on over here! I guess I've just seen so much bullshit in forums that I can just skip past those comments without even thinking about it. My only concern would be when a legitimate price related question comes up - is it just trashed as well? Like I've said before, the extent of my price complaint has been isolated to this thread in regard to ff3, a game I have made a strong argument against being overpriced in relation to other premiere titles.

But if people complain in the FF3 game thread, should their comments be categorically dismissed and relegated to the garbage. Whether you agree or not, complaints can send a message. Take kindle e-books as an example. Some publishers are unwilling to accept that people don't want to pay the same amount for a digital book as a new release hardback. Customers realize that it doesn't make economic sense and often revolt by giving one star amazon reviews and driving down the overall score, which can be extremely detrimental. I bet the publisher may think twice next time they do that. I am not inciting people to complain, app store prices are awesome! But if square Enix thinks it can set the high price ceiling with an updated version of an antiquated game, I'll voice my opinion (which I clearly have...)

I guess you summed up the reason for this thread pretty well - the mods and admins here don't want to allow this forum to accumulate useless posts in game threads. A reader should not have to skim over them looking for game impressions. Do they add to the substance of the game? And leaving one, well, absurdity begets absurdity. Look at this thread as an example. I have seen forums like that too and who wants to waste time sifting through the good posts with the crap posts? So yes, people care about the posts but not in the way you think. They care about what they contribute to the forum discussion - nothing. And it is that attention to content that separates this forum from any other.

You say you merely voiced your opinion about Final Fantasy. Then you say everyone else comes here to rebut every post, well isn't that what you are doing as well? I suppose if you need a sounding box this is the place to do it though. Just like the kijib thread has its regulars, so will this one it appears. The bottom line that you have to understand is there really are no "legitimate" price complaints - even your Final Fantasy argument is not legitimate. I am sure if you spoke face to face with a Square Enix representative they will have legitimate reasons for pricing it as they did.

If it is only that game you have a problem with, perhaps you can start a dialogue with someone who might be able to address your concerns here: http://support.na.square-enix.com/ Otherwise, the amount of posts you have in this thread daily suggest it is not that game alone you take umbrage with and you have some other agenda.

This thread has become so much more entertaining as the puffed up "expert" economists argue using words I bet they found on Spark Notes and use them out of context. Better than LOL cats any day.

[Teh_Ninja]

I take it the reason Nate hasn't been banned is because the mods find this discussion amusing?

[Vovin]

I take it the reason Nate hasn't been banned is because the mods find this discussion amusing?



No. In fact, this whole thread is a casting for

http://dontdatethatdude.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/american-idiot.gif


Believe me, Midian, backtothis, Dukester and all other jury members are having a hard time. All contestants are fantastic, nobody can decide who will be the next one thrown out.

[Teh_Ninja]

Oh lawl!

[natedogg213]

there really are no "legitimate" price complaints

This is one of the most naive statements I have heard in these forums yet. You think that every game is justifiably priced and there is no need to ever question it? Jesus, I hope you never go to a used car lot. Pure fantasy.

If it is only that game you have a problem with, perhaps you can start a dialogue with someone who might be able to address your concerns here: http://support.na.square-enix.com/ Otherwise, the amount of posts you have in this thread daily suggest it is not that game alone you take umbrage with and you have some other agenda.

I appreciate the link, but FF3 is a thing of the past, I have accepted it. I truly am surprised they haven't dropped the price though, but perhaps they fear backlash. Now, if Chrono Trigger debuts at $16, then I'll need that link again.

As for you evaluation of my contributions to this thread, I'll admit that a large percent of my total posts since I joined are here; I am engaged in this discussion and having this thread show up over and over makes me want to check in. But am I here just to argue with immovable objects like you? Nah, I love just reading through people's posts and seeing what they have to say. So I am not sure what you mean, questioning that I have some ulterior motive? It's you whose motive is questionable. You clearly dismiss any price complaint, while I support the notion that complaints can be legitimate. My motive is very open ended, yours is absolute, and when you think in black and white, logic can begin to take a backseat.

This thread has become so much more entertaining as the puffed up "expert" economists argue using words I bet they found on Spark Notes and use them out of context. Better than LOL cats any day.

I'm not sure if this is a shot at me, as I plainly can't stand economics as a profession. A barb at college boy Backtothis?

[natedogg213]

I take it the reason Nate hasn't been banned is because the mods find this discussion amusing?

And the fact that I haven't broke any forum rules?

Nice signature by the way...

[natedogg213]

That is some really twisted "logic," there, my man.

Care to elaborate Dukester? You still haven't had a substantive response, why even participate?

[backtothis]

Lol it wasn't targeted at me. I'm pretty NEG meant you, weehoo, etc..

[natedogg213]

Believe me, Midian, backtothis, Dukester and all other jury members are having a hard time. All contestants are fantastic, nobody can decide who will be the next one thrown out.

I bet you're the Paula Abdul of the group

[Vovin]

And the fact that I haven't broke any forum rules?


Liar.

[New England Gamer]

Lol it wasn't targeted at me. I'm pretty NEG meant you, weehoo, etc..
Definitely not you - definitely not a handful of people that actually know what they are talking about.

As for who I meant, well if they have to wonder, then it probably IS directed at them.

@NateDogg - your dissecting of my post sentence by sentence just proves my point. I didn't post to get into an exchange with you - much like I dismissed your last dissection of a post I made in this thread. But comparing iOS games to a used car?? See, that is just so illogical that you can't debate it. At least compare apples to apples would ya? Not an American vs. a Native Greek shopping in the Plaka in Athens.

[natedogg213]

"Participate"? In what? This trainwreck of a thread? I can't think of anything more pointless.

No, I am here strictly for the mocking, bro. I can't resist mocking those who take themselves sooooo seriously, and also think they have all the answers.

Right now, that appears to be you on both counts. Thus, I mock.

It's simple, really.

If mocking is what you do, keep at it. I hadn't even noticed though. You're kinda the little brother of the group who agrees with everything his big brothers say.

[natedogg213]

As for who I meant, well if they have to wonder, then it probably IS directed at them.

LOL, way to dance around your own accusation.

But comparing iOS games to a used car?? See, that is just so illogical that you can't debate it. At least compare apples to apples would ya?

So price complaints are legitimate in other facets of life, but not iOS gaming. I got ya, clear as mud!

New England, you are here to net-fight, because you don't even acknowledge that this topic is arguable. You are just like the guy who is here to mock apparently. I disagree with Backtothis and MidianGTX on some pricing issues, but I understand their points and I think our conversations have transitioned to what could be considered respectful. Not so much with you, your little brother and Paula, for which I have clearly given up.

But if you want to make an effort to turn this into a respectful discussion, I'm game!

[natedogg213]

So that's why you respond to every one of my posts?

Of course you've noticed.

You'll have to try harder than that, junior.

You truly have reading comprehension issues. I hadn't noticed you were trying to mock me!

LOL at "junior." I'm torn, are you the little brother or some crotchety old man.

[New England Gamer]

LOL, way to dance around your own accusation.



So price complaints are legitimate in other facets of life, but not iOS gaming. I got ya, clear as mud!

New England, you are here to net-fight, because you don't even acknowledge that this topic is arguable. You are just like the guy who is here to mock apparently. I disagree with Backtothis and MidianGTX on some pricing issues, but I understand their points and I think our conversations have transitioned to what could be considered respectful. Not so much with you, your little brother and Paula, for which I have clearly given up.



No not here to argue at all actually. Made some observations that I did not expect to get cut to slivers letter by letter. Last I checked people are entitled to that. You have an uncanny way of sucking people in to a discussion they really and truly want to stay out of. Maybe it is your sarcastic tone. Maybe it is your disrespect. Whatever it is, it prompted me to reply even though the better part of me really didn't want to.

But I would ask you to keep to context. Yes, and I mean apples to apples. It is too easy to try to "haggle" a price on the app store because the developers are too approachable. Indies are here on the forums, appear at conferences and gaming shows like PAX and PAX East. They are so desperate to "make it" that if a rallying cry to cut prices is made, chances are they will do it. Programs like FAAD and others that have slogans - ask for more quality games like (__________) to go free - don't help the situation.

But the big guys, the Square Enix's of the world are just not here and you would have to go find them to voice your concerns. Maybe they read these forums, maybe they don't - but they surely watch the top grossing charts, the top sales charts, etc. Vote with your feet as they say. Might be the only way to get their attention. And who do THEY send to those conferences? Interns, low level employees, perhaps a guest appearance by a writer or artist to sign some posters, but by and large the most important people who do the business end of things are not there either. Indies rubbing elbows with interns - such is the way of the dichotomous gaming industry.

So yes, while you are correct there MAY be some "legitimate" iOS price discussions, they would not necessarily apply to the big guns that can do what they please - and will, just because they can. But again, just because a developer is accessible to comments, praise, and criticism does not mean the consumer should devalue their work by asking for price cuts, freebies, sales, etc. What I would want most is for everyone to treat the app store like they would a packaged game.

Would you walk into Best Buy, or GameStop, or any other video game retailer and stomp your feet demanding a price drop? I would not think so. Why? Because the developer is not sitting right in front of you. They set prices and you either pay or walk away and wait for a sale. I would say the same should go with iOS games - pay or wait for a sale. Prices plunge in the app store so quickly that sales are inevitable and so if you can wait, surely the price will drop. And this is the sad reality - sad because many hard working, creative developers have given up developing games for the iOS platforms because it is too cut throat and the pressure to go free or 99 cents is too great. I actually know a few, and have seen others in these forums just stop developing because of this. We will never see anything new and creative if this mentality continues. Reward those that deserve to be rewarded and avoid those that don't. Cream always rises to the top as they say. If that means I do not acknowledge this is an "arguable topic" so be it. And of course, when I gave you the support link to Square Enix you backed right off that - referring to some time in the future where you MIGHT voice your concern in a way that might actually get some response. So you can argue all you want with the forum members, but that is not going to change the price of some games. Where you really need to express yourself is to those that might have a hand in changing them.

Haggling is an acceptable form of sales in the Plaka in Greece for Native Greeks (in case you didn't understand my example, since you snipped it) but most Americans would have no clue about that. Haggling is acceptable in many areas of commerce but trying to haggle an iOS game when you could not haggle a console or handheld game simply shows entitlement. In order for the app store to become strong and viable for the struggling developer then the haggling has to stop. Respect for the developers and their work will enable them to produce more and better titles in the future.

If no one bought Final Fantasy at that price I am positive Square Enix would have heard the cry loud and clear. But since it was pretty high for a respectable amount of time, I bet Square Enix is thinking they did ok.

But if you want to make an effort to turn this into a respectful discussion, I'm game!

So nice edit there to try and salvage yourself, but name calling and the like just won't do anything for the discussion other than making people angry and rubbing nails on members' emotional chalkboard. That's the start of the net-fights you accuse others of engaging in.

[natedogg213]

No not here to argue at all actually. Made some observations that I did not expect to get cut to slivers letter by letter. Last I checked people are entitled to that. You have an uncanny way of sucking people in to a discussion they really and truly want to stay out of. Maybe it is your sarcastic tone. Maybe it is your disrespect. Whatever it is, it prompted me to reply even though the better part of me really didn't want to.

But I would ask you to keep to context. Yes, and I mean apples to apples. It is too easy to try to "haggle" a price on the app store because the developers are too approachable. Indies are here on the forums, appear at conferences and gaming shows like PAX and PAX East. They are so desperate to "make it" that if a rallying cry to cut prices is made, chances are they will do it. Programs like FAAD and others that have slogans - ask for more quality games like (__________) to go free - don't help the situation.

But the big guys, the Square Enix's of the world are just not here and you would have to go find them to voice your concerns. Maybe they read these forums, maybe they don't - but they surely watch the top grossing charts, the top sales charts, etc. Vote with your feet as they say. Might be the only way to get their attention. And who do THEY send to those conferences? Interns, low level employees, perhaps a guest appearance by a writer or artist to sign some posters, but by and large the most important people who do the business end of things are not there either. Indies rubbing elbows with interns - such is the way of the dichotomous gaming industry.

So yes, while you are correct there MAY be some "legitimate" iOS price discussions, they would not necessarily apply to the big guns that can do what they please - and will, just because they can. But again, just because a developer is accessible to comments, praise, and criticism does not mean the consumer should devalue their work by asking for price cuts, freebies, sales, etc. What I would want most is for everyone to treat the app store like they would a packaged game.

Would you walk into Best Buy, or GameStop, or any other video game retailer and stomp your feet demanding a price drop? I would not think so. Why? Because the developer is not sitting right in front of you. They set prices and you either pay or walk away and wait for a sale. I would say the same should go with iOS games - pay or wait for a sale. Prices plunge in the app store so quickly that sales are inevitable and so if you can wait, surely the price will drop. And this is the sad reality - sad because many hard working, creative developers have given up developing games for the iOS platforms because it is too cut throat and the pressure to go free or 99 cents is too great. I actually know a few, and have seen others in these forums just stop developing because of this. We will never see anything new and creative if this mentality continues. Reward those that deserve to be rewarded and avoid those that don't. Cream always rises to the top as they say. If that means I do not acknowledge this is an "arguable topic" so be it. And of course, when I gave you the support link to Square Enix you backed right off that - referring to some time in the future where you MIGHT voice your concern in a way that might actually get some response. So you can argue all you want with the forum members, but that is not going to change the price of some games. Where you really need to express yourself is to those that might have a hand in changing them.

Haggling is an acceptable form of sales in the Plaka in Greece for Native Greeks (in case you didn't understand my example, since you snipped it) but most Americans would have no clue about that. Haggling is acceptable in many areas of commerce but trying to haggle an iOS game when you could not haggle a console or handheld game simply shows entitlement. In order for the app store to become strong and viable for the struggling developer then the haggling has to stop. Respect for the developers and their work will enable them to produce more and better titles in the future.

If no one bought Final Fantasy at that price I am positive Square Enix would have heard the cry loud and clear. But since it was pretty high for a respectable amount of time, I bet Square Enix is thinking they did ok.

Other than the last paragraph (I cut it out), this is good stuff. I like engaging in this type of discussion. Interestingly, I agree with nearly everything you said, with just a few small exceptions. A couple comments (excuse me being in a hurry, I have to leave soon): Square's $16 price tag is poorly priced IMO, but I didn't back away from your suggestion to take it to SE, I just don't have that much invested to take it to that level. FF3 wasn't a very noteworthy game in the series. Now, if FF6 (FF3 in the US) came out at $16, I might send a message to them because that game is great and I'd expect it to be priced similar to the recently released Secret of Mana. I understand this is just a forum and the topic came up so I expressed it. If the original post that had started this failed to exist, it would be old news and we all wouldn't be here having such a great time.

[yongkykun]

Other than the last paragraph (I cut it out), this is good stuff. I like engaging in this type of discussion. Interestingly, I agree with nearly everything you said, with just a few small exceptions. A couple comments (excuse me being in a hurry, I have to leave soon): Square's $16 price tag is poorly priced IMO, but I didn't back away from your suggestion to take it to SE, I just don't have that much invested to take it to that level. FF3 wasn't a very noteworthy game in the series. Now, if FF6 (FF3 in the US) came out at $16, I might send a message to them because that game is great and I'd expect it to be priced similar to the recently released Secret of Mana. I understand this is just a forum and the topic came up so I expressed it. If the original post that had started this failed to exist, it would be old news and we all wouldn't be here having such a great time.

Agreed but FF6 might come out some time in the future and the price might even be higher than SoM or even FF3. But what worries me is that some TA members are going to cheer this move by SE, saying that it will attract big developers to iOS. My concern is that it's going to create such a gap in App Store games pricing between small devs and big devs.

[Vovin]

My concern is that it's going to create such a gap in App Store games pricing between small devs and big devs.


Which would be a good solution.

[yongkykun]

Which would be a good solution.

Elaborate please?

[Vovin]

Elaborate please?


Lesser competitive struggle.

[yongkykun]

Kill the competition eh? I don't know what you think of the word "morality" but that kind of thing is against my moral principle. To each his own I suppose.

[New England Gamer]

Kill the competition eh? I don't know what you think of the word "morality" but that kind of thing is against my moral principle. To each his own I suppose.
I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. The way I read that comment was that there could be two different tiers with two different competitive markets.

High tier - you want Final Fantasy or you want oh I dunno - some dream game of Halo. (I know there is no Halo but trying to make the point). Big expensive titles will compete only with big expensive titles.

Lower tier - Angry Birds or Cut the Rope or some new game we haven't heard about yet. Gamers that don't care about the big console experience on their handheld will still be able to get inexpensive quality games that they can play in bits and spurts.

Each tier would only be competing within itself. As it stands with only a handful of premium priced titles people can still say - why get x for 10 dollars when I can get 10 different x's for the same price. At least with a bigger premium price range you can have a choice of titles.

[Vovin]

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. The way I read that comment was that there could be two different tiers with two different competitive markets.

High tier - you want Final Fantasy or you want oh I dunno - some dream game of Halo. (I know there is no Halo but trying to make the point). Big expensive titles will compete only with big expensive titles.

Lower tier - Angry Birds or Cut the Rope or some new game we haven't heard about yet. Gamers that don't care about the big console experience on their handheld will still be able to get inexpensive quality games that they can play in bits and spurts.

Each tier would only be competing within itself. As it stands with only a handful of premium priced titles people can still say - why get x for 10 dollars when I can get 10 different x's for the same price. At least with a bigger premium price range you can have a choice of titles.




Exactly.

[ackmondual]

You can get Hero of Sparta or Samurai: Way of the Warrior for 2 dollars.

I don't think 3 dollars is unreasonable at all for a game like this, but the developers have to consider the competition. For the same price, a customer can get more from another game.

[shrug] Probably the ideal that people pay less for simplicty. I guess It'd be like paying $5 for a small cup of chopped fruit, while others would rather just pay $3 for a large melon, and chop it up themselves.

[barcodetat2]

Ive actually wanted to play the xbox game of this...so all just wait for this to go on sale.