What is the cheapest available Mac that is good enough to make apps?

[GatorDeb]

I want to make an app (even have an idea!) and would love to get a Mac. What's the cheapest Mac that will get the job done?

[CandyNJ66]

I want to make an app (even have an idea!) and would love to get a Mac. What's the cheapest Mac that will get the job done?

I wish there was a cheap mac Deb heh. I think some of the Powerbook ones aren't that pricey. Amazon.com I think has listings of them. I envy you girl...they look awesome.

What idea do you have? PM it to me :)

[dannys95]

You need OS X so the cheapest would be a Mac mini which is $600. Devs say they are perfect for making apps so there you go. I too have an idea and will be getting a MB soon so stay tuned. But the coding is hard! Be warned. :cool:

[GatorDeb]

$600 is too much :(

I don't really WANT to do the programming. What's the best way to find a programmer who WON'T rip my idea off and will share profits equally? (either 2-way or 3-way (with a designer) or 4-way (with a publisher).

P.S. Not talking about you ripping it off Candy I'm just too tired to type a whole lot right now :D

[InsertWittyName]

You generally won't get a lot for coming up with an idea.

Just a forewarning.

[WellSpentYouth]

$600 is too much :(

I don't really WANT to do the programming. What's the best way to find a programmer who WON'T rip my idea off and will share profits equally? (either 2-way or 3-way (with a designer) or 4-way (with a publisher).

P.S. Not talking about you ripping it off Candy I'm just too tired to type a whole lot right now :D
If you have "an idea", a programmer most likely wouldn't split it with you. My friends and family give me plenty of ideas. Programming is fun, but is hard to learn. Again, you can't get paid half share for "an idea". That said, I encourage you to get a mac and make it yourself!! I am not trying to be mean, I an just stating the facts. Good luck!

[Adams Immersive]

Cheapest Mac: Mac Mini.

Cheapest SOURCES of Macs (you can do better than $599):
Education discount (if you're a student or school employee)
Apple Refurbished (have full warranty--see bottom-left of Apple store page)
Amazon.com

Or you could go the used route WITHOUT warranty and look on eBay, if you're feeling adventurous.

Just be sure you get a Mac with an Intel processor and Leopard, aka OS X 10.5 (all recent Macs are fine--some older used ones are not).

Also, some additional savings: if you have a PC now and expect to require Windows in future, you might be able to sell the PC and then buy a copy of Windows (if you don't already have one) to put on the Mac. Macs are also Windows PCs--they just don't come with Windows pre-installed.

[jaemcsd]

Put a post on oDesk.com to hire a programmer. If it is really, really small (basically does nothing) and you have all the graphics and sounds it needs (if any) then you could get it done for a few hundred.

+ mac mini for $600 (if you already have a keyboard, mouse & monitor)
+ $99 to join as an Apple Developer
+ $250-1000 if you need any artwork or graphics done

To share revenue it needs to be the best idea ever that nobody has ever thought of before. If it is kinda like program X but with a little of Y thrown in, forget it.

[PointOfLight]

@Adams Immersive: Thanks for the tip on the refurbished section of the store. I had never noticed that before. Unfortunately, they don't have any Mac minis right now, and their cheapest refurbished is $850 bucks. I imagine that's something you'd have to check on a regular basis, though.

@jaemcsd: Will a standard PC VGA monitor plug work with a Mac mini? I've been considering getting into this game myself, and I could probably swing the bare-bones Mac mini, but if I have to start adding in things like keyboard, mouse and monitor it's probably going to run me too much.

[jaemcsd]

The new Mini that came out last week (with Nvidia video card) will need a VGA adaptor for $20. I would get the new one if you want to make or play games.

The 'old' one with the Intel video card comes with it already.

Apple is selling the old ones on clearance: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance?mco=MTE3Njg

Any usb keyboard/mouse should work fine.

[sticktron]

If you already own a relatively modern PC, there is an alternative to buying a Mac: install OS X on your PC.

[PointOfLight]

The new Mini that came out last week (with Nvidia video card) will need a VGA adaptor for $20. I would get the new one if you want to make or play games.

The 'old' one with the Intel video card comes with it already.

Apple is selling the old ones on clearance: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance?mco=MTE3Njg

Any usb keyboard/mouse should work fine.

Once again, I appreciate the info. Are you saying that you don't think the old one is good enough for making games, or is it just a personal preference towards the new one? I don't want to make a bad decision if I do this, but seeing as I don't really have the money anyway, $100 is a big difference. I did notice that there were no upgrade options for the clearance model, which certainly makes sense. Can you buy and install memory yourself, or does this violate Apple's warranty? On the flip side, would 1GB be sufficient for development? At this point I really don't see myself using the machine for anything outside of programming.

[Zwilnik]

If you already own a relatively modern PC, there is an alternative to buying a Mac: install OS X on your PC.

Not reliable enough for proper iPhone dev and it's breaking the developer agreement with Apple so you could easily find all your hard work rejected.

[Zwilnik]

Once again, I appreciate the info. Are you saying that you don't think the old one is good enough for making games, or is it just a personal preference towards the new one? I don't want to make a bad decision if I do this, but seeing as I don't really have the money anyway, $100 is a big difference. I did notice that there were no upgrade options for the clearance model, which certainly makes sense. Can you buy and install memory yourself, or does this violate Apple's warranty? On the flip side, would 1GB be sufficient for development? At this point I really don't see myself using the machine for anything outside of programming.

If it's a Mac, has an Intel chip in it and is running OS X 10.5 Leopard, it's enough to write iPhone apps with. The newer Mac minis are better value for money than the previous ones for the same price, but if you can pick up an older one at a clearance price it may be a better deal for you.

[PointOfLight]

If you already own a relatively modern PC, there is an alternative to buying a Mac: install OS X on your PC.

My PC would definitely not work for this (I've already looked into it), and from what I understand, it violates the OS X license agreement anyway. If I was doing this for fun I'd consider it, but since I want to develop and sell games, I want this all to be legitimate. Of course, if someone could prove me wrong on this point I know a place where I can get a non-Apple machine with OS X installed a lot cheaper than Apple.

[Adams Immersive]

I'd say 1 GB is "sufficient" for just about anything these days (short of pro media production and some games). But 2 GB will be BETTER for just about anything: fewer "wait cursors" while data swaps from the hard disk, especially. 1 GB will make the machine feel slower, but still usable for your needs.

You can install RAM in the Mini later (and macsales.com or some other 3rd party will sell RAM cheaper than Apple). But I don't know whether it violates your warranty! It doesn't on other Macs, but on the Mini? I'm not sure--I know it's a little tricky (needs a putty knife) to open up.

I'd say an older Intel Mini with Leopard would be fine. The biggest difference with the new ones will be 3D graphics performance for games. Not important to you probably.

And the timing is right: new Minis just came out, so the Minis that were current models a week ago are now on clearance! That $499 model should be sufficient for your needs. And it comes with the VGA monitor adapter in the box--which I don't think the new ones do.

You could pay more for more HD and more RAM, and those are great to have, but if you're on a budget, $499 for a Mac with the latest 10.5 OS and full warranty ain't bad!

As for keyboard/mouse: anything USB should work fine. (Old PS/2 keyboards and mouse would need an adapter, and those adapters can be finicky, as I discovered the hard way.)

And of course you'll also need to learn to program in Cocoa (using Xcode, the free software platform from Apple for making both Mac and iPhone apps). But there are a ton of free Cocoa and Xcode learning resources out there--starting with Apple's own videos and tutorials, and your local library.

One last thing: if your idea is a 3D game, I can highly recommend the Unity engine. Additional cost, but it's a nice engine to work with, and I know non-programmers who have used it to learn programming and now have apps on the store. Disclaimer: I have never shipped a game for any platform with Unity, nor have I ever used the iPhone version. I HAVE used the regular Mac/Windows Unity to make good progress on a partial game, enough that I feel confident about using it to move to iPhone later.

[jaemcsd]

The $499 old one is plenty of power to make any of the programs that will run on the iPhone. It's just that if you are making games using a lot of graphics programs the new ones will run faster. Or if you want a computer that will play just about any game, the newer ones would work better. Making any productivity app or even a basic game like a match 3, any intel Mac with OSX10.5 would be more than enough. I almost got one of the Mini's and was waiting for the new ones, but decided to get a MacBook instead.

[PointOfLight]

Right now I'm not worried about 3D, not really worried about playing games, and probably not even too concerned about graphics (I know a couple people that if I'm lucky, I might be able to persuade them into creating the graphics for me). So from the sounds of it, the clearance Mac Mini will suit my needs just fine. And, if this ends up being something I really want to pursue, at that point I'll consider upgrading to a full blown Mac Something. Thanks to everyone for all your input, even though I wasn't the one that started this thread :D

[yourofl10]

Soo u can strip your PC OS and but in Mac OS X I see but its not legal or what ever right?

[sticktron]

Soo u can strip your PC OS and but in Mac OS X I see but its not legal or what ever right?

No need to "strip" anything, just install OS X on a separate partition and dual-boot. It helps if your PC hardware is similar to what they use in current Macs, since there are far fewer device drivers available for the OS X platform.

It's not "legal", and it's not as ideal as having an actual Mac, but for those who want to explore OS X and iPhone development it's a great way to start for free.

[rcloudsoftware]

$600 is too much :(

I don't really WANT to do the programming. What's the best way to find a programmer who WON'T rip my idea off and will share profits equally? (either 2-way or 3-way (with a designer) or 4-way (with a publisher).

P.S. Not talking about you ripping it off Candy I'm just too tired to type a whole lot right now :D

Just as everyone else said, ideas right now are basically not worth much...because of good old simple market economics: the supply of ideas is extremely high, and supply of competent programmers is much lower.

An excellent treatment of this topic is here: http://blogs.oreilly.com/iphone/2008/11/turning-ideas-into-application.html

That said, if you are serious about wanting to get your idea produced, you can. Just be prepared to match the investment that your programmer will have to make (in the form of his/her time). You can do it in a myriad of ways, but one way or another, you absolutely have to acknowledge the investment that an engineer is making, or else you won't get anywhere.

I don't know you background, but if it's not in programming, you are probably much better off hiring someone with a mastery of the iPhone SDK to do your work than try to do it yourself.

Thanks
Ryan

[Adams Immersive]

t's not "legal", and it's not as ideal as having an actual Mac, but for those who want to explore OS X and iPhone development it's a great way to start for free.

Well, not free: you still have to buy Leopard, which comes included with Macs. It costs 1/4 as much as just getting a refurb Mini.

[GatorDeb]

You have to pay Apple to write games for them? :eek:

[pablo19]

You have to pay Apple to write games for them? :eek:

90 buck's! plus 30% of what you earn

[Adams Immersive]

You have to pay Apple to write games for them? :eek:

No, you pay them to use THEIR tools and system to write games that YOU get most of the profits from :)

[GatorDeb]

No, you pay them to use THEIR tools and system to write games that YOU get most of the profits from :)

So it's not a free SDK, it's a $99 SDK :rolleyes:

[PointOfLight]

Well, not free: you still have to buy Leopard, which comes included with Macs. It costs 1/4 as much as just getting a refurb Mini.

This is true, but if you decide you don't like developing for the iPhone than you can reinstall Windows on your machine if you didn't dual boot, or just blow away OS X if you did dual boot, and you're only out $129 (last time I priced) vs. the cost of a machine. Plus, even the "cheap" machine is potentially a lot more than $499. There's tax, there's a warranty (which I don't think comes with it), keyboard and mouse if you need it (I recommend 3rd party, because Apple charges $100 for the pair), and monitor if so needed. So even if you just need machine and warranty you're looking at $649 plus tax. If someone is really unsure about the development thing and they have the machine to swing it, I highly recommend the "OS X on a PC" route first.

[PointOfLight]

So it's not a free SDK, it's a $99 SDK :rolleyes:

Actually, I think that was a bit of mis-wording on his part. The SDK is free. I could download it now if I had a Mac. To officially be a part of the developer's network - which is what allows you to release games on the App Store - that's what costs $99.

[Adams Immersive]

So it's not a free SDK, it's a $99 SDK :rolleyes:

The SDK is free--you can start to learn it on your own at no risk (or use it to make Mac apps). Participating in the store is not free. Nor is installing your app on your phone--even for testing. So it's free with limits.

Of course, Xcode plus the App Store is a pretty awesome system to get for just $99.

[PointOfLight]

The SDK is free--you can start to learn it on your own at no risk (or use it to make Mac apps). Participating in the store is not free. Nor is installing your app on your phone--even for testing. So it's free with limits.

Of course, Xcode plus the App Store is a pretty awesome system to get for just $99.

This is definitely true. It sure beats the thousands of dollars it costs to develop games for next gen consoles and handhelds.

[Diablohead]

If you are someone looking into making app's, your avarage cost to get started will look like this:

Mac Mini £500
Indie apple license fee £60+
iPhone or Touch (I guess you have one already) £169+

If you already have a monitor, keyboard and mouse with usb ports then they should work on the Mini, but there is always something else you might need so add more £ to your planned spending. If you can't code then you will either have to learn or find someone, who will probably want payment or a cut of the sales, that's more £ and management.

While i'm not finger pointing here, too many people seem to think having an idea and turning it into a cool app is easy, while I would say it's not. If you believe that your app can do well I say go for it and do everything you can to make it real, but prepare to spend money on doing so.

[Zwilnik]

This is true, but if you decide you don't like developing for the iPhone than you can reinstall Windows on your machine if you didn't dual boot, or just blow away OS X if you did dual boot, and you're only out $129 (last time I priced) vs. the cost of a machine. Plus, even the "cheap" machine is potentially a lot more than $499. There's tax, there's a warranty (which I don't think comes with it), keyboard and mouse if you need it (I recommend 3rd party, because Apple charges $100 for the pair), and monitor if so needed. So even if you just need machine and warranty you're looking at $649 plus tax. If someone is really unsure about the development thing and they have the machine to swing it, I highly recommend the "OS X on a PC" route first.

All Macs (including refurbs) come with the latest full version of Leopard pre-installed. Other than a keyboard, mouse and monitor, which you've probably got if you're able to access this forum, that's it. So other than tax in some states, there's no extra costs.

Compare that to the day or so you could lose trying to get a hackintosh working (a friend of mine who is pretty competent in Mac and PC repair is still trying to get one working, despite it being an 'easy' one to make work as a hackintosh) and compare it to the time and money you've lost if/when it fails on you just before submission.

[gillygize]

Unfortunately, an idea is not worth an equal share of the profit with the developer. If you have an idea and a developer actually makes it, the developer should probably get something like 99% of the revenue. (Just like Thomas Edison's insight that "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.") It might take about a minute to come up with an idea for a game. I've have two or three a week. But the developer will need to do much, much more work, answering questions like: how can I make this game feasible on this device? what technology will I need to use? what is the best way to implement it? Then they will spend hours upon hours actually typing code, fixing problems, in order to make that idea a reality.

Notice that there are a lot of people in the forums with ideas who are in search of developers. There are not a lot of developers saying, "Wow! I have tons of development and programming skills and I want to make an iPhone game, but I just have no idea what to program." This is why the programming skills are what is truly valuable.

But with regards to Macs...yeah, you can get started iPhone developing for under a thousand bucks. It sounds expensive, but its probably the cheapest game development has ever been for a platform with this kind of install base. Except maybe the TI-83.:D

[sticktron]

Well, not free: you still have to buy Leopard, which comes included with Macs. It costs 1/4 as much as just getting a refurb Mini.

No you don't have to buy Leopard. You don't have to buy anything when it comes to computer software, but that's beside the point. If you want to spend money, just go buy a Mac. The hackint0sh approach is more for those who want to play around with OS X and/or iPhone development *without* spending money first, or as a side hobby.

Two other small points:

1) You computer won't suddenly 'fail' just because you didn't pay Apple for the software. It doesn't work like that. Your hardware doesn't know that it didn't come from the Apple store.

2) If the prospect of installing and configuring OS X on your PC scares you, what makes you think you will be able to program a game?

[Zwilnik]

1) You computer won't suddenly 'fail' just because you didn't pay Apple for the software. It doesn't work like that. Your hardware doesn't know that it didn't come from the Apple store.

2) If the prospect of installing and configuring OS X on your PC scares you, what makes you think you will be able to program a game?

1) No but it will fail because you're running an OS on it that it wasn't designed for.

2) If the prospect of paying $1000 for a Mac mini and dev license scares you compared to what you think your app would make you on the iPhone, being an iPhone dev probably isn't a good business plan for you ;)

[Adams Immersive]

No you don't have to buy Leopard.

Do you mean pirate a copy of Mac OS? Just to to be clear since there are Mac newcomers here: OS X (aka Leopard) can be hacked to run on a PC, but you still DO have to have OS X, which is paid software, not free. The Xcode tools (which require OS X) are what are free.

Failures occur not because the hardware knows it's not a Mac, but because the SOFTWARE knows it's not a Mac. "Knows" meaning that the software was meant for differnet hardware/drives, and Apple doesn't test and debug their updates for anything but their own machines. So when a software update comes along, you're at your own risk.

As for being afraid to set up a hacked OS and troubleshoot your OS when/if it breaks: it's not necessarily about fear. It's about wanting to work on YOUR projects rather than work on your computer. The work of educating yourself about hackintoshes, the work of setting one up, the work of dealing with any failed updates--all that is time that could be spent USING your Mac and getting your game done. (Same reason I don't use Windows anymore: I have the technical know-how battle Windows, but I'd rather do other things.)

For hobbyists, I realize, the battle is half the fun. I hacked my iPod just "because I could." (But then again, I wasn't trying to conduct business and make a product on that iPod.) So I'm not saying I don't understand the appeal of a hackintosh--I do (not to mention, a machine you build yourself is always cheaper than a Dell or Apple). But for people deciding how to get into iPhone development, the above reasons to get a real Mac are worth considering.

[sticktron]

1) No but it will fail because you're running an OS on it that it wasn't designed for.

What do you think Mac's run on, magical Apple-made hardware? They use the same 3rd party hardware many PC users already own: same Intel CPUs, same Intel motherboard chipsets, same ATI or nVidia GPU, same HD, same ram, etc.

Hence the cheapest Mac for many PC owners might be: there own PC + OSX (cheap as in free).

If you have the computer savvy to program an application for the iPhone, and an Intel-based PC, you can install OSX and play around with it for if you'd like. It installs in about 20 minutes and runs like a dream... exactly like it would on a Mac with similar specs.

(Again, this is only for people wanting to get their feet wet, not a permanent replacement for an actual Mac for professional use.)

[Adams Immersive]

What do you think Mac's run on, magical Apple-made hardware? They use the same 3rd party hardware many PC users already own: same Intel CPUs, same Intel motherboard chipsets, same ATI or nVidia GPU, same HD, same ram, etc.

Other PC brands don't even use the same hardware/drivers as each other. It's a real challenge that Microsoft has had to put up with. Apple, designing the hardware and software together, has a lot less variety to test and debug for.

Your best long-term bet with a hackintosh is certainly to come AS CLOSE as possible to the hardware and drivers of a real Mac. But "close" isn't identical.

I wouldn't want my hackintosh to crash when the next OS X patch accidentally conflicts with the drivers for some part I've chosen to use. I don't know how big the risk is, but there a LOT of parts in a computer, and they do matter. Even one obscure chip vs. another matters, which is why sometimes software has a bug on just one certain hardware config. That happens all the time in the Windows world, while Apple steers clear of the issue by knowing exactly what systems to test on.

Question: have OS X patches ever needed additional work from hackintosh owners to make them run?

[PointOfLight]

Guys, I don't think all this bickering about hackintosh vs. mac is really benefitting anyone. What it really boils down to is this: if you don't have a Mac, and you want to "test the waters" on iPhone development without much expenditure, go with a hackintosh. If you don't like it, your out little or nothing (depending on whether you chose to buy an OS X license or just "acquire" it). If you know for sure this is what you want to do, or you go the hackintosh route and decide you actually want to do the iPhone thing, then buy a Mac. This is the easiest way to look at it.

[Adams Immersive]

Guys, I don't think all this bickering about hackintosh vs. mac is really benefitting anyone. What it really boils down to is this: if you don't have a Mac, and you want to "test the waters" on iPhone development without much expenditure, go with a hackintosh. If you don't like it, your out little or nothing (depending on whether you chose to buy an OS X license or just "acquire" it). If you know for sure this is what you want to do, or you go the hackintosh route and decide you actually want to do the iPhone thing, then buy a Mac. This is the easiest way to look at it.

Hopefully it IS helping people who don't know how all these options play out. But your scenario makes good sense. Risking some labor + $105 (OS X at Amazon) is different from risking $499 or more.

(Although the $499+ still leaves you with a nice tiny Mac-and-Windows-ready PC with good resale value, even if you decide not to get into iPhone development.)

[PointOfLight]

Hopefully it IS helping people who don't know how all these options play out. But your scenario makes good sense. Risking some labor + $105 (OS X at Amazon) is different from risking $499 or more.

(Although the $499+ still leaves you with a nice tiny Mac-and-Windows-ready PC with good resale value, even if you decide not to get into iPhone development.)

True, but for someone like me, I'd be hard pressed coming up with the $105 for the OS (guess I shouldn't have bought all those games for my iPod :))

[Adams Immersive]

Hang in there and save up :) You could be making games of your own before you know it...

The BEST bet to get a Mac cheap is to wait until you were going to replace your PC anyway. And when you do, choose a Mac--they have no low-end models, but their mid-ranges cost the same as other name brands. (Except you should add the cost of putting Windows on it unless you keep your old Windows license. Or go cold turkey!)

[Adams Immersive]

I just came across a recent hackintosh article. It's come a long way and is doable (on certain PC hardware--not just any hardware) if you're dedicated. This article is a success story. But a hackintosh is no picnic:

http://www.suntimes.com/business/1473468,ihnatko-apple-mac-pc-hackintosh-031209.article

[PointOfLight]

I just came across a recent hackintosh article. It's come a long way and is doable (on certain PC hardware--not just any hardware) if you're dedicated. This article is a success story. But a hackintosh is no picnic:

http://www.suntimes.com/business/1473468,ihnatko-apple-mac-pc-hackintosh-031209.article

Thanks for the article. You gotta love it when stuff like this makes nationally known papers :)

[sticktron]

This article is a success story. But a hackintosh is no picnic:

Installing OS X on your PC is quite easy if you have an Intel-based PC with an Intel-based motherboard. You may have to change a few info.plists to get certain components to be recognized by the Apple drivers, but we are talking about people who want to be software developers here--if they can't handle that, they aren't going to get very far writing a graphical software application from scratch.

I have 10.5 installed at work on my Dell, and at home on my custom built PC. Both installed in ~20 minutes.

PS: You'd be a fool to buy a copy of OS X for this experiment.. so this "Mac" is truly free.

[Adams Immersive]

Not pirating isn't being a "fool"--it's obeying the law and paying people for their work.

And the article above makes it pretty clear that getting OS X running on a PC (even one of the few recommended configs) in under 20 minutes--whether or not you include all the prep time and research/studying--is highly unlikely. I do believe you had that good fortune, but that's not going to be typical.

And it's not just about whether one CAN get it working, but about whether it's worth it or not. Which is a personal call--and that article (http://www.suntimes.com/business/1473468,ihnatko-apple-mac-pc-hackintosh-031209.article) gives BOTH the positives and negatives pretty clearly.

I'm an example of someone who DOES do software development--and who COULD get a hackintosh working--but who does not find all the hassle of a hackintosh (together with the future uncertainty) to be worth it. If I actually did all the things in life that I COULD handle, I'd be doing all KINDS of unpleasant things and never have any free time left :p

At the same time, I certainly understand why some would choose differently.