I don't mean to be rude but...

[postman]

Tell me why I should keep developing iPhone apps?

Ten thousand people downloaded my app while it was free for a couple of days. Nearly ten thousand people downloaded the free update, which means most people thought it was good enough to keep on their phones.

At least 3,000 people have downloaded the lite version so far.

Sounds pretty good right?

Yet, not enough people have downloaded the paid version for me to make a penny. Nothing. I don't think I'm greedy, but folks, I can't do this for free forever.

CALL to developers:

Stop giving away your stuff for free. You worked hard on it, it's worth something!

CALL to customers:

Stop expecting something for nothing.

CALL to Apple:

Set the minimum price tier in the app store to 99 cents. This is not a hardship to anybody who bought an iPhone.

Have at it folks, let the debate begin!

The postman

[BulletDev]

I know exactly what you mean! I don't completely agree with you, I mean there should still be an option to develop free apps, but people have to stop expecting free stuff. I can't stand it when people complain over great apps costing money.

[Little White Bear Studios]

Ten thousand people downloaded my app while it was free for a couple of days.

Yet, not enough people have downloaded the paid version for me to make a penny. Nothing. I don't think I'm greedy, but folks, I can't do this for free forever.

I think you may have run into the problem of setting the value of your app too low from the start. You made it free, thus setting its value. Then you raised the price, and people aren't interested because they know it was free before. It makes them think they're being charged too much.

Of course, there could be other factors as to why you aren't selling well. Too hard to tell, as I don't know what your app is.

[Little White Bear Studios]

Tell me why I should keep developing iPhone apps?


1. It's fun!
2. Given the right price, right gameplay, right marketing, and a little bit of luck, you can make a whole lot of money.
3. Did I mention that it's fun?

[rootbeersoup]

People do NOT expect something for nothing

It has been said countless times by all of us here, we will pay good money for a quality game

I have spent a load of money on games that I like

BTW, what app do you sell?

[Everydaynormalguy]

Well mr. postman, 'i don't wanna be rude' but...why the hell should i care? Obviously your game wasn't good enough to attract paying customers so...as far as developing new games, well, it's a free country: do as you like.

[wastedyuthe]

We could really do with finding out what The Postman's app is, only then can we ascertain the root of the problem for this particular case.
As others have said, people WILL pay for a quality app. So this app perhaps either wasn't as good as it could have been or it wasn't marketed very well. We won't know till we know what it is.

[stiggybird]

I think you may have run into the problem of setting the value of your app too low from the start. You made it free, thus setting its value. Then you raised the price, and people aren't interested because they know it was free before. It makes them think they're being charged too much.

Of course, there could be other factors as to why you aren't selling well. Too hard to tell, as I don't know what your app is.

I don't know if this is entirely true. If you consider Air Sharing, it was free for a long time, and now they charge $7ish. I think they're the possibly most popular app of that purpose, even if it is not clearly the best (I prefer FileMagnet, but I'm sure many will disagree, I think some people use datacase). I believe they've probably achieved this by having so many people getting it for free that it now gets around by word of mouth, even at a price. This is despite the fact that it's now more expensive than equivilant apps, and also came later than others.

Also, I think removing free apps would be a mistake, as I feel that it is what gets some people onto the store to begin with, who will later buy paid apps.

[moopf]

Well I'm carrying on, even though my app hasn't done very well (not sure if I'll see a penny this year from sales, to be honest.) It may not be the most sensible use of my time, if my first app sales are anything to go on, but I enjoy it.

[Oliver]

BTW: That they update does not mean that they have it on their phone. They just were too tired to delete it from iTunes.

I have 250 apps in iTunes. Guess what: Not all of them are on my phone. Many of them just sit in iTunes waiting for updates which make them suck less.

[snow_mani]

Hi Postman,

Please let us know which app you are talking about.

I have spent a small fortune on apps (an app here and an app there is really adding up).

I have also downloaded lots of free apps and have then gone on to recommend some of those apps to other people (who had to pay when those apps where no longer free). I have also purchased full copies of apps after using the lite versions, and in one case, I have paid for a full version even though the then free version was a full game that was only missing the ability to change the appearance of the blocks in the game and access a hint system (that I don't even use). All because I liked the app and wanted to support the developer.

There is a very wide range of people who use this forum. From all ages and walks of life. And we are all interested in seeing and using great apps. And we are interested in helping developers create those apps and improve those apps.

Let us know what the app is and we can provide you with some constructive feedback and ideas.

[Oliver]

In august I spent about 130 Euros. Now I limit myself to 25 Euros per month, just to limit "impulse buyings". I don't have a problem to pay 8, 10 or more Euros if the game is good. I won't buy stuff like Scoops, garbage which entertains me for a few minutes and then I put it away. I also won't buy any more match-n-stuff. I'm seeking for real games, which entertain me for hours, days and weeks. Games which deserve my money, like Virtual Villagers, FieldRunners, Block Breaker, Bejeweled, Missile Command, Motion X Poker, Bubble Bash, Blue Skies, Chopper, Asphalt and others.

Regarding my 25 Euro limit per month this means that I won't buy the game when it comes out. I will wait for videos and reviews and really think about whether this is a bad game, a game with good production value which just won't fit to me or a game which would entertain me for a while. If the third position, I will buy it. But most of the time, the game price dropped to free or to 1/4 of the original price in the first month.

So I really think that all price problems are in fact problems of the devs who charge not enough for their work. Of course you as a dev have to make sure, that your app is visible. I put a thread on this into the programmers forum on this site. If your only chance to make your app visible is dropping the price to free, than their's something wrong, either with your app (nobody likes it, wants it, needs it) or with your promotion.


PS: And that you are not able to tell us what game you made, not in the discussion and not in a signature, tells us something about your marketing...

[lynch]

being burned way too many times initially has stopped me from buying any app that i may want to buy, so i sit on it, and think about it,
i also set a limit, although i went over it this month and am sitting @ $54 this month, thank gawd its the last day of the month -haha...but initially i spent well over 300, and i regret a lot of those apps

so as a customer, i will only buy if

I know the developer and they are good for not releasing a beta
there are screenshots
there is a video
and the price reflects the value and the benefit that i hope to get out of the app

it can have all the features in the world, but as a consumer i only care about benefits

[Little White Bear Studios]

I don't know if this is entirely true. If you consider Air Sharing, it was free for a long time, and now they charge $7ish. I think they're the possibly most popular app of that purpose, even if it is not clearly the best (I prefer FileMagnet, but I'm sure many will disagree, I think some people use datacase). I believe they've probably achieved this by having so many people getting it for free that it now gets around by word of mouth, even at a price. This is despite the fact that it's now more expensive than equivilant apps, and also came later than others.


Yes, there can be exceptions to any rule. :) Certain apps' features can certainly sell at any price.

[mek]

is the game Asterope?

i enjoyed the game
but i believe it was missing a demo so no one knew the gameplay ahead of time
so everyone was afraid of buying it

but then i dont think that one was updated, so i could be wrong
but if it is...amazing game

[mek]

Yes, there can be exceptions to any rule. :) Certain apps' features can certainly sell at any price.

*cough* I am Rich *Cough*

[SwingOnThis]

I think also app fever has subsided, and the people who would buy any and every 99 cent and 1.99 app under the sun have decided to hold out for better things.

The righteous indignation of angry developers is astounding to me. You know if your app is good or not. Just because another developer has success w/ a crappy app, doesn't mean that you're owed the same success.

Make better apps, and they'll sell. Show me one app that's awesome that hasn't sold.

[Oliver]

Hiqup :) Really great and polished, but it seems that nobody buys it.

[SwingOnThis]

It's a peg jump variation. Not saying it's not polished or fun, but it's a variation on many other existing apps.

[moopf]

It's a peg jump variation. Not saying it's not polished or fun, but it's a variation on many other existing apps.

Oh yes, I completely agree. But then, how many of the top selling apps are truly original, rather than variants (or ports) of previously existing games?

I now know that my game didn't seem to have much appeal, for whatever reason. That much is absolutely clear :)

[crunc]

What is the deal with getting money for your apps? If you have sold the game to anyone, shouldn't you be seeing 70% of those sales? Why have you received nothing? What happens to all that money you haven't received? Did Apple get 100% of it?

Edit: the problem with Hiccup is not that it is a variant of an existing game, but that it is specifically a variant of a peg jump game. That just isn't going to illicit a buying frenzy. A demo was released, and that's good, but unfortunately for Moopf, the demo just made people see that, oh yes, it is just a variant of peg jump. A very, very well done one, but peg jump none-the-less.

[mek]

What is the deal with getting money for your apps? If you have sold the game to anyone, shouldn't you be seeing 70% of those sales? Why have you received nothing? What happens to all that money you haven't received? Did Apple get 100% of it?

and why is mek so sexy?


i'll answer both of those questions

first, you have to rake in $250 per region in order for apple to cut you a check, a good month or so later..if you dont get that 250, it goes towards the effort of another month of sales in order to get that 250, if you dont make 250 in per say region, apple will be delighted to hold on to that money for you

or if you violate something, like I AM RICH, apple will not pay the developer, and hold on to that 7,000 dollars

as for question number two
i dont know the answer

but happy Halloween

[moopf]

What is the deal with getting money for your apps? If you have sold the game to anyone, shouldn't you be seeing 70% of those sales? Why have you received nothing? What happens to all that money you haven't received? Did Apple get 100% of it?

What mek said :) I haven't made enough in any region to get any money and I don't see it totaling up to enough in any region for the rest of this year. So, to date, I've seen nothing :)

Edit: the problem with Hiccup is not that it is a variant of an existing game, but that it is specifically a variant of a peg jump game. That just isn't going to illicit a buying frenzy. A demo was released, and that's good, but unfortunately for Moopf, the demo just made people see that, oh yes, it is just a variant of peg jump. A very, very well done one, but peg jump none-the-less.

No, I wasn't expecting a buying frenzy at all. I wasn't expecting such poor sales, either ;) But, you live and learn.

[Mr. Charley]

i'll answer both of those questions

first, you have to rake in $250 per region in order for apple to cut you a check, a good month or so later..if you dont get that 250, it goes towards the effort of another month of sales in order to get that 250, if you dont make 250 in per say region, apple will be delighted to hold on to that money for you

or if you violate something, like I AM RICH, apple will not pay the developer, and hold on to that 7,000 dollars



So what happens if a developer never reaches $250 in sales per region? How long does Apple hold on to the cash and the accompanying interest?
And do they give you your cash with interest (I probably already know the answer to that but was just curious)

[crunc]

Oh, and another thing... what are you folks waiting for? It's pretty simple: make an RPG and your app will sell like crazy. There aren't many RPGs for the iPhone yet. The only real one is Vay, and it's a port of a less then stellar original.

Make a new, original, *and good* RPG and it will sell for at least $10, easy. If you need a suggestion for a game to model it after, check out the fan translation (or not, if you know Japanese) of Mother 3, or Paper Mario or Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door. Mother 3 is an absolutely fantastic action-ish RPG game, and the same with the other two. Humor, action, RPG. OK, so that's what I want, but I still think you can't go wrong with an RPG as long as it doesn't come across as a hack job. Make it a fully fleshed out, well designed, well balanced RPG and it will go gold and for a higher price then other games.

[moopf]

So what happens if a developer never reaches $250 in sales per region? How long does Apple hold on to the cash and the accompanying interest?
And do they give you your cash with interest (I probably already know the answer to that but was just curious)

As far as I know they just keep hold of it until you do. This is why, in several regions, I doubt I'll *ever* see any of the money from the sales. The only places I think I'll see any money from (although not sure when) would be the UK region, the US region and...possibly sometime next year...the European region.

And no, they don't pay interest :) That $250 is also after their 30% cut, you in effect you have to sell around $350 in each area to get that $250.

[crunc]

As far as I know they just keep hold of it until you do. This is why, in several regions, I doubt I'll *ever* see any of the money from the sales. The only places I think I'll see any money from (although not sure when) would be the UK region, the US region and...possibly sometime next year...the European region.

And no, they don't pay interest :) That $250 is also after their 30% cut, you in effect you have to sell around $350 in each area to get that $250.

That is pretty disheartening to think that you might never see anything for your effort. Let me just say that I think you did a bang-up job with Hiqup and you certainly deserve to see money from it. That arrangement by Apple seems like a coup for them. In fact it seems like incentive for them to push for lots of low-selling games that they get to, in effect, keep all the revenue from, versus a smaller number of big sellers that they only get 30% of. EDIT: or to put it another way, it's disincentive for them to improve the AppStore. By making it hard to find older apps, they may in effect create more low-selling applications, and thus increase their take.

[Oliver]

Vayis not available in the German store. I tried it since they had it in the US store.

[moopf]

That is pretty disheartening to think that you might never see anything for your effort. Let me just say that I think you did a bang-up job with Hiqup and you certainly deserve to see money from it. That arrangement by Apple seems like a coup for them. In fact it seems like incentive for them to push for lots of low-selling games that they get to, in effect, keep all the revenue from, versus a smaller number of big sellers that they only get 30% of.

Not really, I can completely see why Apple do it this way - otherwise they'd be sending out many thousands of really small payments each month which wouldn't be at all cost effective for them, and might actually cost them to do. So it's quite normal to set a limit for payments on something like this and I don't see anything really bad about it in that respect.

And thanks for the comments about Hiqup :)

[Mr. Charley]

Not really, I can completely see why Apple do it this way - otherwise they'd be sending out many thousands of really small payments each month which wouldn't be at all cost effective for them, and might actually cost them to do. So it's quite normal to set a limit for payments on something like this and I don't see anything really bad about it in that respect.

And thanks for the comments about Hiqup :)

I hear you, and agree that it doesn't make sense for Apple to send payment on a daily, or weekly basis. But to have the stipulation that you must make a certain amount of money or else you get nothing just doesn't seem fair.
Maybe if they then "paid out" every year? At least the developer gets the $200 at some point, which is rightfully theirs...it's chump change for your time, I know, but out of principle, Apple shouldn't be entitled to your rightfully earned money

[Frand]

@crunc

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit :)

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

[mek]

@crunc

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit :)

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

but as we speak, there are a select few already going down such a road, some big companies, some people doing it on their own time after they get out of work

whoever can release the first, well done published rpg, could make a small killing

[Frand]

I'm sorry if I haven't kept up with the news, but which big RPG is coming to the iPhone? The Squaresoft game is a tower defense clone ported from their existing cell phone game.

[nattylux]

Ooh interesting thread.

First of all, I think you're speaking to the wrong crowd here. Most folks on this forum appreciate quality games and pay good money to get them.

However, you've hit upon the dirty little secret of the App Store: most people don't make money. I think there was a huge gold rush when the store opened up, and you heard the rags-to-riches stories of a couple of individual developers, and then everyone in the world wanted to get into the game.

Fact is, 95% of the apps in the store aren't making enough money to sustain an individual developer. That's just how that market works, and you can't blame the customers for that. You just have to be aware of it and behave accordingly. You're not going to change the thinking of the millions of people shopping on the App Store by complaining about it.

The question is, how do you get into that top 5%? A couple of misconceptions on that point:

"If you make something good and original, it WILL sell."

False. Unless you're a big company that has a game that's already known, or can guarantee that Apple will market your new app, there are NO guarantees of sales on the app store. There are countless examples of apps that are good, original, or both, that are not selling. No matter how good your game is, your customers need to FIND it. There are now over 5,000 apps in the store, and only a handful get displayed upfront. Unless you're lucky enough to be displayed or covered by multiple high profile blogs, your customers just can't find you.

As to originality, this is a common misconception that I used to make. However, most people don't want originality. People gravitate towards the familiar. Take a look at the top 50 games. How many of those are actually original? Very few. Most are simply a port of an existing game, or are somehow like an existing game, OR come out of a known name that people trust. As much as people complain about the proliferation of match-3 puzzles, Bejewelled is now the #3 game in the store. People are much more likely to buy something they've heard of before. This is why popularizing a new game is a HUGE effort, as opposed to, say, making a Tetris clone.

So basically - yeah, you're not making money. Most people aren't making money. It's a very tough market to be in, and you need to be able to handle it. The apps that make money are:

- Ports or clones of existing games that everyone knows (Tetris, Bejewelled, Spore, Nanosaur, and too many others to name)
- Apps made by known companies that can build up hype and get Apple marketing (EA, Pangea, Freeverse, ngmoco)
- Apps lucky enough to get featured by Apple in the store
- Apps whose devs were smart enough to invest a ton of money and effort into marketing (Trism (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/02/interview_the_next_big_puzzle.php), Where To (http://www.taptaptap.com/blog/the-easy-way-to-get-into-the-iphone-app-game-buy-a-proven-app/))
- The lucky few individual devs that developed an app with a hook that everyone just loves (Koi Pond, iChalky)

If you're not one of the above, don't expect a big payday. You may get lucky, but the odds are stacked against you.

This has been a public service announcement :)

[Oliver]

You forget the apps that are just so great that they sell by word of mouth and then get featured on review sites like this one and even on Ars Technica. I really think that great games with long gameplay can come from single developers or small companies. Stuff like Fieldrunners prove it. Great game. Word of mouth. Reviews. More buyers. More word of mouth etc.

[nattylux]

Yup, that's another one. Given the great execution and art, I would guess that Fieldrunners was developed by more than one person, and that it took at least a couple of months. And still - there are very very few of these apps that are so good and popular that they just sell themselves.

[crunc]

Or if you make a good RPG. :)

[Mr. Charley]

@ nattylux

You're right about the goldrush at the launch of the appstore, and how individual developers (Trism, Chopper for example) made tons of money. Not certain if those were released today would they even be talked about...

The rest of your public service announcement brought up some very valid points and things to consider. :)

[nattylux]

Or if you make a good RPG. :)

Ok, so my list was not exhaustive :)

Let's throw this into the list:

Games of a genre that everyone wants (RPG) or that everyone generally likes or is willing to try (racing), but where the cost to entry is prohibitive to most small developers. As a result, making a killing on such games will pretty much be limited to the big gaming studios.

I think the point of my page-long rant above is that making money on the app store is HARD and in general pretty unlikely. Right now, it's like after the Alaska gold rush, where everybody and their mom arrives in the middle of nowhere in Alaska expecting to come back a millionaire, where the reality is that most of those who don't freeze or starve or die of some awful disease will probably come back home empty handed.

[rootbeersoup]

Ooh interesting thread.

First of all, I think you're speaking to the wrong crowd here. Most folks on this forum appreciate quality games and pay good money to get them.

However, you've hit upon the dirty little secret of the App Store: most people don't make money. I think there was a huge gold rush when the store opened up, and you heard the rags-to-riches stories of a couple of individual developers, and then everyone in the world wanted to get into the game.

Fact is, 95% of the apps in the store aren't making enough money to sustain an individual developer. That's just how that market works, and you can't blame the customers for that. You just have to be aware of it and behave accordingly. You're not going to change the thinking of the millions of people shopping on the App Store by complaining about it.

The question is, how do you get into that top 5%? A couple of misconceptions on that point:

"If you make something good and original, it WILL sell."

False. Unless you're a big company that has a game that's already known, or can guarantee that Apple will market your new app, there are NO guarantees of sales on the app store. There are countless examples of apps that are good, original, or both, that are not selling. No matter how good your game is, your customers need to FIND it. There are now over 5,000 apps in the store, and only a handful get displayed upfront. Unless you're lucky enough to be displayed or covered by multiple high profile blogs, your customers just can't find you.

As to originality, this is a common misconception that I used to make. However, most people don't want originality. People gravitate towards the familiar. Take a look at the top 50 games. How many of those are actually original? Very few. Most are simply a port of an existing game, or are somehow like an existing game, OR come out of a known name that people trust. As much as people complain about the proliferation of match-3 puzzles, Bejewelled is now the #3 game in the store. People are much more likely to buy something they've heard of before. This is why popularizing a new game is a HUGE effort, as opposed to, say, making a Tetris clone.

So basically - yeah, you're not making money. Most people aren't making money. It's a very tough market to be in, and you need to be able to handle it. The apps that make money are:

- Ports or clones of existing games that everyone knows (Tetris, Bejewelled, Spore, Nanosaur, and too many others to name)
- Apps made by known companies that can build up hype and get Apple marketing (EA, Pangea, Freeverse, ngmoco)
- Apps lucky enough to get featured by Apple in the store
- Apps whose devs were smart enough to invest a ton of money and effort into marketing (Trism (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/02/interview_the_next_big_puzzle.php), Where To (http://www.taptaptap.com/blog/the-easy-way-to-get-into-the-iphone-app-game-buy-a-proven-app/))
- The lucky few individual devs that developed an app with a hook that everyone just loves (Koi Pond, iChalky)

If you're not one of the above, don't expect a big payday. You may get lucky, but the odds are stacked against you.

This has been a public service announcement :)

I always thought that devs paid to have their apps advertised by Apple

[moopf]

I always thought that devs paid to have their apps advertised by Apple

Nope, not that I'm aware of.

[nattylux]

I always thought that devs paid to have their apps advertised by Apple

Nope. It's 100% up to Apple's discretion. Devs don't even get alerted that they're being featured - they just might get a nice surprise one morning when they check iTunes.

Of course, Apple is much more likely to feature companies they already have a relationship with. I don't know if EA talks to Apple to set that up, or Apple just realizes that an EA game is likely to sell and therefore markets it. I'm sure that EA has an *expectation* that their games will get featured.

But no, it is not paid advertising whatsoever.

[rootbeersoup]

Nope. It's 100% up to Apple's discretion. Devs don't even get alerted that they're being featured - they just might get a nice surprise one morning when they check iTunes.

Of course, Apple is much more likely to feature companies they already have a relationship with. I don't know if EA talks to Apple to set that up, or Apple just realizes that an EA game is likely to sell and therefore markets it. I'm sure that EA has an *expectation* that their games will get featured.

But no, it is not paid advertising whatsoever.

Yeah, Apple and Pangea obviously have a good relationship, and have had one for a very very long time

[different]

Do you want us to buy your game? If so, stop crying and tell us about it. ;)

Wasn't it your choice to introduce it for free? If you wanted to make a buck off it, why didn't you charge a buck?

[Renare]

I can't help but notice that he hasn't posted anything since the first post... Either he is busy or too scared to show us his game...

[Everydaynormalguy]

I can't help but notice that he hasn't posted anything since the first post... Either he is busy or too scared to show us his game...

I was just gonna say that...I think mr. postman is a rather ellaborate troll. He/She just posted some random bullsh@t to get people mad and post even more random bullsh@t. Please people: don't feed trolls...

[davidmdowning42]

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

So how come more big companies aren't porting their existing games? That's gotta be a lot easier/cheaper. Sega & others could dust off about a billion old gems and start making $ off properties that are just sitting and not earning anything. It doesn't seem to be too hard for Pangea and a few others. They're doing it quick, and for cheap selling prices, and those are actually 3D games.

How hard could it be to port the Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog? It would look better than any of the other 2D scrollers and that game is ancient. Instead I'm sure Sega is hard at work developing some totally new sonic title for the iPhone. I'd love to play that game. It just seems like there some easy money in ports that's being ignored.

[STP_Steve]

Tell me why I should keep developing iPhone apps?

Ten thousand people downloaded my app while it was free for a couple of days. Nearly ten thousand people downloaded the free update, which means most people thought it was good enough to keep on their phones.

At least 3,000 people have downloaded the lite version so far.

Sounds pretty good right?

Yet, not enough people have downloaded the paid version for me to make a penny. Nothing. I don't think I'm greedy, but folks, I can't do this for free forever.

CALL to developers:

Stop giving away your stuff for free. You worked hard on it, it's worth something!

CALL to customers:

Stop expecting something for nothing.

CALL to Apple:

Set the minimum price tier in the app store to 99 cents. This is not a hardship to anybody who bought an iPhone.

Have at it folks, let the debate begin!

The postman

What's your opinion on ad-based revenue? I'm surprised more devs aren't resorting to it, frankly.

[STP_Steve]

Nope. It's 100% up to Apple's discretion. Devs don't even get alerted that they're being featured - they just might get a nice surprise one morning when they check iTunes.

Of course, Apple is much more likely to feature companies they already have a relationship with. I don't know if EA talks to Apple to set that up, or Apple just realizes that an EA game is likely to sell and therefore markets it. I'm sure that EA has an *expectation* that their games will get featured.

But no, it is not paid advertising whatsoever.

You had better believe that EA talks to Apple! They probably have a sales guy or two specifically tasked with bothering the App Store people.

[STP_Steve]

@crunc

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit :)

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

I think that Square Enix WILL bring Final Fantasy I/II to the iPhone, and they WILL charge $20-$30 for it. Hundreds of thousands of people will pay for it, especially in Japan.

[STP_Steve]

@crunc

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit :)

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

But FF wouldn't be developed from scratch, obviously. I take your point about original games.

[daniglue]

I simply think that if your app is worth some bucks, you'll get some bucks.

There are many develpers who made some money with 0.99$ apps.

If you didn't, I just think your app is not worth 0.99$, sorry.




Bum.

[Chilling]

To be blunt, if people thought it was worth their money then they would buy it. If they thought it wasn't worth the price you wanted then either they don't think they should pay for something they used to be able to get for free, or they don't think it's worth paying for at all.
I can somewhat see your point but I stand by what I mentioned above.

[Jesse Arcadia]

Thanks to this site, I have bought many games with nothing to go on but the screenshots. If I didn't buy your game, it's for one of three reasons:

1) I didn't know about it
2) I read about it, but the review made me lose interest
3) I don't like the genre (couldn't be less inclined to play a "match 3" game ever again. If you made the world's best "match 3" game, I still wouldn't buy it.)

[Renare]

@crunc

A new, original, good RPG with modern production values for the iPhone takes easily 1-2 years to develop with a development company of 10-30 people (again, depending on the production values, 2D versus 3D graphics and so on). Assuming those people are paid decent salaries, the company would spend $40k-$200k per month on wages alone to develop the game, bringing its budget without marketing costs or utility costs up to $480k-$4.8 Million.

If you'd be willing to pay $10 for such a game, only ~650 000 similarly minded people would have to feel the same way (remember, Apple takes 30%) for the game to even meet its production costs, much less make profit :)

Looking at the current iPhone marketplace, would you take such a risk as an independent developer or a publisher? Really?

Assuming those numbers were correct (although I am sure it is just much speculation)... Let's think about the fact that there are over 10 million iPhones that have been sold thus far... I know that not all markets may receive such app, but if it's a polished app that is actually worth 10 bucks (I stress the word WORTH as I have seen too many apps not worth half that price in the store), they could easily make their money back.... For the amount of iPhones in circulation today that's only about 5-6 percent of the users out there... I could be wrong, but being that the app store is selling over a million dollars worth of apps a day (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/11/iphone-apps-selling-at-1_n_118152.html) I think that it is definitely feasible and plausible for a company to make bank...

Just my 2 cents...

[darwiniandude]

BTW: pricing is in AUD.... :)

Apple need to drop the $250 before paying cutoff. There needs to be a pettition!

Why?

Because originally I (and others) expected a few 99c toys, but mostly games would be in the $5-$20 region, and idiots like EA might charge $39.95 for a big full featured game. Considering DS games at $59-$69 or more here, I was expecting the vast majority of games to be much cheaper, but still.

As games are now AT MOST $12.99 AUD (9.99USD) and a couple at $5.99 but mostly 99c or 'free for a day' it takes far longer to get $250 to the developers. So it should be lowered, IMO.

I am not a dev btw :)

I check the price drops and appstore daily, and get anything 'free for a limited time' that looks remotely interesting, knowing it will improve with future updates and i won't have to pay for it. Is everyone doing this? If so then no wonder things aren't selling after a free period.

I've spend countless amounts on the AppStore, because I can't wait for a good game to price drop. The price drops are stupid, much as I like spending less.

Fieldrunners I bought the day it came out because it looked brilliant, despite the lack of sound and it not being finished yet. I don't regret it at all. I love Lux Touch, which is free, but it annoys me that the full version isn't done yet.

I bought the $9.99 SNATCH as it's more capable than any other mouse/keyboard trackpad apps, as it lets you create your own customisable button screens with assignable macros, how handy! I didn't by the cheaper air mouse because it doesn't do as much.

I will buy NFS, Monopoly, and Sim City, because they should all have decent replay value.

[Little White Bear Studios]

If you're not one of the above, don't expect a big payday. You may get lucky, but the odds are stacked against you.

Unfortunate, but true.

[super6ft7]

first what is your game, seriously we might be able to help you if you told us.
The minimum price for an app should be free because I would never pay for papi jump, i would never pay for that, but papijump+ brought more to the table and was worth 60p or $1.
I have payed for lots of games knowing fully well that within a week they would be cheaper, because the dev deserves their money sometimes, but obviously people don't think of your game as one that is worth a dollar

[Magnulus]

The way I'm seeing it as I'm inching closer to actually having a programmer to partner up with is that my more ambitious projects will have to wait. I'm actually working on ideas and designs for an RPG that would be kind of like a roguelike but not that much like them after all (informative, I know. ^_^) but I'm thinking of first of all making a smaller version incorporating a lot of the same features that I'm going to bring into what would effectively be the sequel but on a smaller scale.

That first game would be cheap 1-2 dollars and would (hopefully) be interesting enough that people start to take notice of the name so that by the time we are able to finish a much more advanced sequel, the first game will have wetted peoples appetites.

That's my business plan for that particular game, and one that I hope works.

[Frand]

Assuming those numbers were correct (although I am sure it is just much speculation)... Let's think about the fact that there are over 10 million iPhones that have been sold thus far... I know that not all markets may receive such app, but if it's a polished app that is actually worth 10 bucks (I stress the word WORTH as I have seen too many apps not worth half that price in the store), they could easily make their money back.... For the amount of iPhones in circulation today that's only about 5-6 percent of the users out there... I could be wrong, but being that the app store is selling over a million dollars worth of apps a day (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/11/iphone-apps-selling-at-1_n_118152.html) I think that it is definitely feasible and plausible for a company to make bank...

Just my 2 cents...

The numbers I posted for game development are a rough estimate, but the ballpark is correct. It's a big sliding scale of course, with clever outsourcing perhaps helping in keeping the core team smaller and therefore fixed costs lower.

However, expecting the total number of devices out there to be the target market would be a serious mistake. Despite being a very capable platform for gaming, iPhone and iPod touch are not dedicated gaming devices. So at least the following factors weigh in:

- A portion of the users will not purchase applications at all, simply because they are either unaware of the App Store, or simply not interested

- Some users may be underage and do not have credit cards

- Some users may simply be uninterested in gaming (beyond the occasional solitaire etc.)

There are no official numbers for the above, and it would be extremely difficult to even make an educated guess. One reference which may be valid for comparison is that roughly 50-70% of Xbox 360's are connected to Xbox Live (as I recall) and of them, perhaps 30% actually buy games from Live Arcade. Similar figures apply to PS3 as well.

For sake of argument, let's pick a number and say that there are 6 million potential customers who would be interested in games and both willing and able to purchase them. Now let's talk about segmentation:

The game industry loves to talk about casual and core gamers, based on their gaming habits. Casual gamers purchase games less often and look for games to provide entertainment more than challenge. The usually quoted figure is that core gamers are 20% of the total market. The figure may be less for iPhone due to it being new to the market and because it is not a dedicated gaming platform. But moving forward, since we are talking about an RPG, it's definitely a game that appeals to the core gamer. Therefore within the context of this example, the number of potential buyers is 1.2 million (20% of 6M).

But wait... not all core gamers like the same stuff. Core gamers are actually quite genre-biased, and tend to keep to their own turf. Therefore the total core gamer market is in fact divided into smaller segments per genre, with about 10-20% slices for the big genres (racing, sports, action, FPS...) and 1-5% slices for the rest. Asian RPGs are unfortunately not a major share of the core market despite the success of some specific series. So, even if we inflate the number to 10% due to higher demand of quality content on the iPhone, our expected number of customers is 120 000 (10% of core gamers).

These are the kind of calculations done by any publisher with basic business sense, and they determine if a project gets started or not. Their numbers must be more accurate than mine, and they will factor in variables that I haven't listed (region-specific genre preferences, release month etc.), but the principle remains.

I admit that 120 000 potential customers seems low, and my gut feeling is that a good RPG would sell more than that. But would I trust my gut instead of the spreadsheet when it's time to greenlight a $5M development project?
With Apple's 30% royalty share, the game would have to be priced at $65 to even meet the production cost if the spreadsheet is correct.

Remember that even on any game console, a blockbuster hit is a game that sells to about 20% of the entire device base. Halo goes a bit higher than that, since the profile of the customers is a good match for the genre.

In conclusion, my example game budget is silly, and should be adjusted to ~$500k for the business case to make any kind of sense. Can you make "a new, good RPG" with that budget? I highly doubt it. But you could make many other kick-ass games for sure.

Something to read:
http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/2007/09/indie-rpgs-just-not-worth-it.html

[spmwinkel]

@Frand - Thanks for those insights, I'm glad you took the time to write that down. I don't know a lot about development processes but when written in normal English, I enjoy reading about it.

[thom-22]

...
Despite being a very capable platform for gaming, iPhone and iPod touch are not dedicated gaming devices. So at least the following factors weigh in.
...
But wait... not all core gamers like the same stuff. Core gamers are actually quite genre-biased, and tend to keep to their own turf.
...

Excellent post, especially about genre bias. I am definitely a core gamer, easily spend >$1000 a year on games. But I'm an action/adventure gamer through and through. The sight of an RPG or RTS configuration screen makes me fall out of my chair in a catatonic state of boredom. :D

I honestly believe that the only route by which the iPhone/iPod Touch is going to see a regular stream of quality core-gamer games that will show good profits for developers is if/when major and semi-major publishers start making their new computer/console releases for the touch platform as well. This is how publishers leverage their assets and their advertising expenses. This is how it's been for any new gaming platform.

It's not going to come solely from indie devs (fortunately, tho, indie devs have and will continue to come up with the occasional rare gem and hopefully reap the rewards). It's certainly not going to come from ports of 15- or even 5-year old games (Mac games being an exception since OSX and the Touch OS are similar; it might have been "easy" for Pangea to port their Mac titles to iPhone but there's no way it's cheap or easy to port a title from a console-centric franchise like Sonic to the iPhone, except maybe as a "dumbed-down" mobile game).

I really don't get :confused: why RPG-gamers are calling for ports of FF one and two instead of calling for Square Enix, Bioware, etc. to start thinking about the iPhone when developing their next releases. I sure as hell don't want Raven or Epic porting their old games, I want their next games. :)

[Ace_97]

I undestand what you are trying to say. It isn't fair when you developers spend much time on your apps and don't get anything out of it. I don't completely agree with you though. Like previously stated some apps should come free even for a while. For example, if an app isn't popular, it could be free so people could see if it is great or not. I only expect a free app if that is what the developers promise.

[bootant]

Why customer can't expect something for nothing?

May be some developers just like to develop games very much and they are willing to give away their game. What is wrong with that?

[itman]

Tell me why I should keep developing iPhone apps?

Ten thousand people downloaded my app while it was free for a couple of days. Nearly ten thousand people downloaded the free update, which means most people thought it was good enough to keep on their phones.

At least 3,000 people have downloaded the lite version so far.

Sounds pretty good right?

Yet, not enough people have downloaded the paid version for me to make a penny. Nothing. I don't think I'm greedy, but folks, I can't do this for free forever.

CALL to developers:

Stop giving away your stuff for free. You worked hard on it, it's worth something!

CALL to customers:

Stop expecting something for nothing.

CALL to Apple:

Set the minimum price tier in the app store to 99 cents. This is not a hardship to anybody who bought an iPhone.

Have at it folks, let the debate begin!

The postman

What is your game?

If it looks decent you may make $1 :D