Is a DSI or PSP Worth it if I iPhone game?

[Mencius]

Hi everyone,

First post on Touch Arcade, love the site, always keeps me up to date!

So, as background I used to play PC games quite a lot but recently my gaming PC broke down and I am also a lot busier than I used to be. Around the same time I got my iPhone and discovered the joys of iPhone gaming. I've been enjoying it so much in fact that it has reconnected me with the golden years of Game Boy gaming and got me really enjoying hand-held gaming.

All this got me thinking, well, maybe I'll just buy a workstation PC (or basic Mac) and perhaps use some of the spare money to buy a DSi or PSP. What do you all think? Is there any point buying one of these handhelds when I have an iPhone and game on it? Am I going to be gaining much? Should I just wait for iPhone games to keep evolving?

Thanks

[HardcoreEricXXX]

I recently purchased a DS lite off craigslist for $50. There are some real quality games that are not available for iPhone. Gta, super mario (new classic and 64), metroid, zelda, advance wars, and the list goes on. Keep a lookout on Craigslist for games at cheap prices.

[Mencius]

Hmmm yeah if I could pick up one that cheap I suppose it'd be a no-brainer but I'm wondering whether I should get a DSi and I doubt many of those will be cheaply available...

Is there anything to be said in favour of the PSP or is the DS pretty much the winner this time around?

[Ravenblack]

I have both a ds and psp. Ever since I got my iTouch and put games on that, the psp has gotten neglected. I had used the psp for music and videos but now I don't have to. Everything goes on the iTouch and there's plenty of room.

For games, I find the psp recent releases to be rather dull - a lot of ports and console adaptations which aren't necessarily suitable for portable/ on-the-move gaming. There are some original titles that are excellent but they seem to be getting scarce. DS games interest me more -- better puzzle and adventure titles overall imho -- so I still play on it often.

Whether or not you should get either one of these really depends if you have games in mind to play on them. No point getting a ds or psp and then finding out that none of the games available for them appeal to you -- now that would be a real waste.

[brewstermax]

If you are wanting DS games, then go buy a DS. If you want retro classics, such as NES, SNES, GB, and GBA, then you can get emulators on a jb'ed iPhone to allow that. But DS does offer quite a lot for the price, and has some great games. But the new DSi is the most desirable considering the fundamental way that it works now. The OTA downloads, and such.

[brewstermax]

I have both a ds and psp. Ever since I got my iTouch and put games on that, the psp has gotten neglected. I had used the psp for music and videos but now I don't have to. Everything goes on the iTouch and there's plenty of room.

For games, I find the psp recent releases to be rather dull - a lot of ports and console adaptations which aren't necessarily suitable for portable/ on-the-move gaming. There are some original titles that are excellent but they seem to be getting scarce. DS games interest me more -- better puzzle and adventure titles overall imho -- so I still play on it often.

Whether or not you should get either one of these really depends if you have games in mind to play on them. No point getting a ds or psp and then finding out that none of the games available for them appeal to you -- now that would be a real waste.

What's an iTouch?

[yourofl10]

PSP has more teenager games

DSi has more childish games..

[Yagami_Light]

I have both systems (A DS, DS Lite, and PSP 1000). I think that the DS is definitely worth it. The PSP, on the other hand, is only really worth it if you are a Metal Gear fan (although if you were, you would already have it).

If you are getting one of these systems though, look at what you are getting. Remember that while the DSi does have the equivalent of an App Store, it DOES NOT have a GBA port, which means no GBA games, no Guitar Hero, downgraded experience when playing any Pokemon game, and no Rumble Pak (and a few Japanese only games that require the GBA port).

For the PSP, DO NOT BUY THE 2000 OR 3000 MODELS. They are downgraded systems that are awkwardly shaped, and have less features, and the 3000 can not be modded.

PSP has more teenager games

DSi has more childish games..

That is just wrong. The DS has more childish and "teenager" games, as well as adult games.

[brewstermax]

PSP has more teenager games

DSi has more childish games..

That may be your opinion. But it is not shared by many others who really appreciate games. PSP is crap, but the DS has many great games that are classics, and only get better. PSP has what?

[Hodapp]

PSP has more teenager games

DSi has more childish games..

What?

[yourofl10]

I'll make my self more clear.

IN MY OPINION

I think that the DS/DS Lite/DSi has more child friendly games....

PSP has more Teenager friendly games (like with blood etc...)
Do u see my little ponies for PSP.......
Barbie princes for PSP.............
I havent

[Vester]

DSi has some adult games, GTACTW for example, still i would prefer my ds over my ipod game wise

[Hodapp]

Does your opinion disregard the game libraries of each system or something?

[HardcoreEricXXX]

I really wanted a psp for that big screen and wifi, but I tried looking for some games to pick up with it, and the only choice I had was which game to throw my money away on. I looked at the DS's while in the store, put the psp down, and had to keep myself from going bankrupt picking up quality games

[yourofl10]

Does your opinion disregard the game libraries of each system or something?

No.....
Dang y do u people take like I'm gonna kill you guys if you dont agree with me Its a OPINION.........

Geez..... Chill out ppl.....

I respect u hodapp its just my 2 cents

[Hodapp]

I don't think the distinction between a "teen" and "kid" game makes any difference if the game is fun. The PSP's game library is literally overflowing with poorly done ports and terrible action games which are downright hilarious when played on the PSP's screen that has worse ghosting than my first generation 800x600 LCD I bought in 1999. The best part? The "new" slim PSP's come with the same crappy screen that really gives the Sega Game Gear a run for its money when it comes to ghosting.

Unless you're planning on modding it and playing emulators (you know, if you're looking to spend $170+ to re-play Chrono Trigger for the 800th time.) there's really no reason to get a PSP. I camped overnight to buy a launch PSP, and I think I have less dust on my VCR than my PSP at this point.

I seriously wish I could figure out how Sony went from complete domination of the video game market with the PS2 to their $600 BluRay player and a handheld whose sales seem to be entirely dependent on people who are content playing a terrible game as long as it has blood in it.

Just for some perspective, the Wii balance board itself is nearly outselling the PS3 (source (http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/a151229/wii-balance-board-nearly-outselling-ps3.html)) and Nintendo has sold over twice as many DS's as PSP's (source (http://vgchartz.com/)).

If that isn't a clear indicator of which system has a better game library, I honestly don't know what is.

[Tennisking1o1]

I have a PSP1000, a DSlite, and a 32 gig iPod Touch 2G. I love them all, but ever since I got my touch, the only non-iPod game I have played is Chinatown Wars for the DS. That means in 6 months, I have just recently picked my DS back up, and my PSP is collecting dust. Yes, games like Patapon, Hot Shots Golf, Lumines (I and II), Crush, Wipeout, Jeanne D'arc, Space Invaders, Brave Story, LocoRoco, Ratchet and Clank, Final Fantasy, and GTA made me love my PSP, but I basically out-grew it. I used to play my PSP a lot more than my DS, but I found myself playing my DS more as I got a little older, and now I don't even touch my PSP and am probably going to sell it. I would say if you are going to get one, get a DSi, although I would be very happy with just an iPod Touch :)

[Hodapp]

I think what draws me to the iPhone and DS over my PSP is how innovative most of the games are. If I'm going to play a 3D game with the regular old school controls the PSP offers like Ratchet and Clank or Wipeout, I'd rather just play a similar game on my 360. There's nothing the PSP offers that I can't get a better gameplay experience somewhere else. The list of "PSP" exclusives are also so laughable that they're hardly even worth mentioning.

Again, it's just amazing how Sony went from their console gaming dynasty with the PS2 to where they are today. When the DS first came out and the GameCube was floundering around in third place in the previous generation of consoles, I really was wondering if Nintendo was going to go the way of Sega.

Reversal of fortune!

[ibelongintheforums]

i used to have a DS lite and PSP. I honestly, played my PSP way more then the DS. Why? i agree there are more quality persay titles on the DS, but the PSP had some great titles. Wipeout, patapon, loco roco, hotshots golf, and a few more. The DS had many good titles and only a couple great titles. But, i sold both my PSP and DS. Why?
PSP reasoning: i refuse to own a console from a company like sony. They need better buisness managment. Console games were way to expensive also.
DS reasoning: i hardly ever played it and if i did the only one i would play was madden 09. thats a crappy port to.

And like yourofl said, i disagree with.
the PSP is geared toward more HARDCORE audiences and the DS CASUAL.
notice i said geared.
anyways, to answer the question, the DSi is, in my opinion, a crappy way for nintendo to try to take a spot they are not. Like said, DS=more casual. now whe you add in crappy camereas and an online store, you are gearing towards more multi-media non-casual.
Although, the camereas could be used for a good purpose though. like move your hands in front of the camerea to catch a ball.
in my humble but accurate opinion, i say get the DS lite. not the PSP or DSi

[yourofl10]

And like yourofl said, i disagree with.
the PSP is geared toward more HARDCORE audiences and the DS CASUAL.



Thats what I mean to.....
Plus PSP has better graphics. (IN MY OPINION)
Dang I'm to scared to say my own opinion around here...............
People get ticked off at yea..............

[ibelongintheforums]

That is what I mean to say
PSP also has better graphics. (IN MY OPINION)
Dang I am to scared to say my own opinion around here...............
People get ticked off at ya..............

fixed it for ya.........

honestly, though, no one was mad at you. hodapp was debating your point. thats the point of an internet forum. to discuss. if you dont want to stand up for what you say then dont post your opinion. Its your opinion and i am positive hodapp didnt mean for you to feel offended. but IMO, if you are going to be so sensitive about someome challenging your opinion then you dont belong here. no offense intended. (its even sadder i have to say no offense to you)

anyways, can the OP add a poll?
DS lite
DSi
PSP

[Hodapp]

Thats what I mean to.....
Plus PSP has better graphics. (IN MY OPINION)
Dang I'm to scared to say my own opinion around here...............
People get ticked off at yea..............

I don't know if you're not reading the thread or what but I have no idea what anyone is posting that is making you think this.

[yourofl10]

I don't know if you're not reading the thread or what but I have no idea what anyone is posting that is making you think this.


It's all cool if you want to say your opinion go ahead but I get mad is when people start hauing off at yea for expressing one's thoughts.....

It's all cool.........

[Hodapp]

It's all cool if you want to say your opinion go ahead but I get mad is when people start hauing off at yea for expressing one's thoughts.....

It's all cool.........

Who is "hauing off at yea"? I don't even know what that means. :confused:

[yourofl10]

Who is "hauing off at yea"? I don't even know what that means. :confused:

typo its "hauling off" my bad...

[Hodapp]

Who is doing that?

[yourofl10]

Who is doing that?

:/
..........
*Shuts Mouth*
Not telling....

[Hodapp]

If you can't back up what you post in any kind of discussion, there's not much sense in posting it. Someone disagreeing with you isn't "hauling off" (Whatever that means.) it's what takes place on a forum where you discuss things. You seem to do this in every thread where anyone posts something contrary to what you think.

Go back and read ibelongintheforums' post again. Just because I disputed your "teen vs kid" game argument doesn't mean I'm trying to troll you or whatever you think is going on.

[yourofl10]

Anyways Hodapp just delete my posts on this thread for the good of us all.

I would just apperciate if people would give a nicer answer some times like this thread:

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=8808&highlight=hill+billy

What canadian said didnt have to be so harsh..............
Just my 2 cents I;m leaving this topic.......

My last thoughts........

PSP has better graphics has more teenager like games (more hardcore games)

DSi dosnt and has more kiddish games (it has some but not as much as the PSP and has more casual games)

[Hodapp]

http://i.a-13.net/st_facepalm.gif

[brewstermax]

I think what draws me to the iPhone and DS over my PSP is how innovative most of the games are. If I'm going to play a 3D game with the regular old school controls the PSP offers like Ratchet and Clank or Wipeout, I'd rather just play a similar game on my 360. There's nothing the PSP offers that I can't get a better gameplay experience somewhere else. The list of "PSP" exclusives are also so laughable that they're hardly even worth mentioning.

Again, it's just amazing how Sony went from their console gaming dynasty with the PS2 to where they are today. When the DS first came out and the GameCube was floundering around in third place in the previous generation of consoles, I really was wondering if Nintendo was going to go the way of Sega.

Reversal of fortune!

The GameCube was a joke. Heck, the Wii is a total joke. But Nintendo does things, and they do them right. Backing the old school retro titles like Super Mario and Pokemon keep them in business. And the 1304828459020391 little kids who love the Wii.

[brewstermax]

fixed it for ya.........

honestly, though, no one was mad at you. hodapp was debating your point. thats the point of an internet forum. to discuss. if you dont want to stand up for what you say then dont post your opinion. Its your opinion and i am positive hodapp didnt mean for you to feel offended. but IMO, if you are going to be so sensitive about someome challenging your opinion then you dont belong here. no offense intended. (its even sadder i have to say no offense to you)

anyways, can the OP add a poll?
DS lite
DSi
PSP

Wow. IBITF has been reformed!!!!!!!!!!! I used to dread the DSi, but now that I can haz emulators, there is no need. I'm going to go buy a DSi Monday.

[Hodapp]

It's not just kids that like the Wii, we got my grandparents a Wii for Christmas. They have Wii Bowling tournaments in the common room of their condo building. I'm not even joking. What Nintendo has done this console generation with engaging gamers who otherwise would have never EVER been interested in video games is pretty remarkable.

I'm personally taking a pass on the DSi. Unless some really amazing games come out which require the camera (which I kind of doubt, but stranger things have happened) the only benefit is the DSi virtual console junk... and really, I think I've hit my limit on the number of times I'm willing to rebuy Super Mario World.

[brewstermax]

It's not just kids that like the Wii, we got my grandparents a Wii for Christmas. They have Wii Bowling tournaments in the common room of their condo building. I'm not even joking. What Nintendo has done this console generation with engaging gamers who otherwise would have never EVER been interested in video games is pretty remarkable.

I'm personally taking a pass on the DSi. Unless some really amazing games come out which require the camera (which I kind of doubt, but stranger things have happened) the only benefit is the DSi virtual console junk... and really, I think I've hit my limit on the number of times I'm willing to rebuy Super Mario World.

Wow. I never would have thought of such a thing.

The DSi offers a performance boost, and is thinner, and I think that the camera could be a nice addition. I could never hit a limit on Super Mario rebuys. That is the single best game series ever. Who wants to argue that point. Plus OTA and the nice SD card are great for the DSi. Do I hear free ROMs? :)

[dashzed]

hell naw, stick with them iphone apps.

iPhone gaming ↑ -- DS and PSP ↓

[brewstermax]

hell naw, stick with them iphone apps.

iPhone gaming ↑ -- DS and PSP ↓

Do you see the greatest games of all time playing on an iPhone (well, technically you can get emulators on jailbreak, but still), but the DS has many advantages, and the PSP is a complete joke. Nice graphics, crap games. iPhone gaming is nice, and bode me over from September until now. But now, prime DS game release season has started, and I can't resist. Plus App Store games are total crap now. Jailbreak ftw!!!

[HardcoreEricXXX]

The thing for me that makes the DS the best gaming purchase is that some games, as great as they are, you may probably never touch again. A game for a DS has resale value. I hate that I am locked into games for life on the mobile devices. You can find good deals for console games, watch for sales online and craigslist, and while these iPhone games are cheap, the price reflects longevity and replayability. And at the end of the day, if I decided that the iPod touch was not the gaming experiance for me or even if I continue to purchase better quality games(cause the games are rapidly getting better), I have 100's of dollars of worthless games tied to my name that'll never get played again.

[Kamazar]

Wow, I love how responses on this forum are like mini-essays. I get lethargic just looking at them.

I gotta say, though, the AppStore game library sucks. It sucks. There is no denying it, it sucks. The amount of full games is under 30. There is nothing that I will sit down and willingly play for more than 15 minutes. Everything there. The hardware, SDK, everything there. But have any memorable games come out? Most of the good games are by Gameloft (yeah, they're good, but not that good), and the other cools ones would be considered mini-games on a DS or PSP. And a decent chunk of the few great games for the iDevices are ports. GoF? Port. Warfare Inc? Port. Everybody's trying to cash in and make a big buck. I mean, it's great that we have indy devs, but unless they're big and have a substantial budget, they can't give us that much. Bounce On is the only actual looong game I know. I loved my DS. If the games weren't $30 each (but the companies deserve them $30), I'd get a new one. I beat almost every frickin' game I had on that thing. I haven't beaten any on my iPod.

[Mencius]

Hmmm cool, some good thoughts from everyone. I've added a poll for kicks. Anyway, I think what I'll do is wait and watch for a while, see what happens with the DSi, if nothing in particular happens I'll just try and pick up a cheap DS Lite.

Part of what has me thinking about the DSi is the faster CPU they've put in it, but I don't know if there'll be any games that leverage it. I can't see myself using the cameras or the multimedia features, although I do like the slimmer form factor, wider screens, and matt finish.

It's true that iPhone games seem shorter and more bite-sized than games I've played on other platforms but I quite enjoy that sometimes, it's also reflected in their cheap price. Horses for courses I suppose. I'd also disagree that app store games are ALL crap, sure a lot are, but to me Rolando, Zen Bound, Crayon Physics (port I know), GeoDefense, Aurora Feint, Sway and some others really are excellent games in their own right on the platform.

It's true though, you have to sift through a lot of muck to get to the good ones.

[brewstermax]

Wow, I love how responses on this forum are like mini-essays. I get lethargic just looking at them.

I gotta say, though, the AppStore game library sucks. It sucks. There is no denying it, it sucks. The amount of full games is under 30. There is nothing that I will sit down and willingly play for more than 15 minutes. Everything there. The hardware, SDK, everything there. But have any memorable games come out? Most of the good games are by Gameloft (yeah, they're good, but not that good), and the other cools ones would be considered mini-games on a DS or PSP. And a decent chunk of the few great games for the iDevices are ports. GoF? Port. Warfare Inc? Port. Everybody's trying to cash in and make a big buck. I mean, it's great that we have indy devs, but unless they're big and have a substantial budget, they can't give us that much. Bounce On is the only actual looong game I know. I loved my DS. If the games weren't $30 each (but the companies deserve them $30), I'd get a new one. I beat almost every frickin' game I had on that thing. I haven't beaten any on my iPod.

While I do think that the quality of App Store games are faulted, I must mostly disagree with that. Rolando and Dropship are two notable titles that are deep, and have long gameplay with custom iPhone controls. The SDK is just too shallow, and Apple won't let devs do my ideal gaming scenario. Where entering an app completely closes all apps and closes the SpringBoard, and you have only the game and its related functions. This could cause more crashes. And hard crashes, but jailbreak has it right. The iPhone and iPod Touch have 128 MB of RAM. The devs can utilize less than half of that. Processing speed and graphics are also taken over by things running in the background, like Mail, Safari, and iPod. If Apple insists on a sandbox, then do a sandbox. Allow each and every game exist on it's own, and stretch the limits of the iPhone. Then, we'll see really games with depth and real capabilities. Devs can't do anything with Mail constantly checking for new messages, Safari monitoring a website, and iPod constantly equalizing music. It's unideal for devs, and horrible for the consumer. It could be a nuisance for consumers as well. Having to respring upon every app exit takes time, and isn't productive. But you have to pick whether you want convenience or great games. I say great games. I am jailbroken and have to respring constantly. It's no big deal.

The DS does all these things, and stretches it's horrid graphics, CPU, and 4 megs of RAM to have games 10x better than the iPhone with 10x better hardware.

[Mencius]

Oh my, after reading this Iwata asks (http://www.nintendodsi.com/iwataasks/vol2_page1.html) (and having a mighty good laugh at the stilted scripting) I'm less sure about the DSi.

I don't want to "play with cameras" or "play with music" I just want to play games, listen to music, and take photos with a camera. I'm not sure if the DSi knows what it wants to be. I wish they'd improved its ability to play games instead of adding these things that just feel kinda gimmicky :confused:

I think I'm more decided on the Lite now.

Vol 1 of "Iwata asks" is slightly less hilarious (slightly) and available here (http://www.nintendodsi.com/iwataasks/vol1_page1.html)

[brewstermax]

Oh my, after reading this chat with Iwata (http://www.nintendodsi.com/iwataasks/vol1_page1.html) (and having a mighty good laugh at the stilted scripting) I'm less sure about the DSi.

I don't want to "play with cameras" or "play with music" I just want to play games, listen to music, and take photos with a camera. I'm not sure if the DSi knows what it wants to be. I wish they'd improved its ability to play games instead of adding these things that just feel kinda gimmicky :confused:

I think I'm more decided on the Lite now.

[Edit]: awwwww they've updated the transcript so that it's slightly less hilarious, before it was absolute comedy gold. They've taken all of Miyamoto's stuff out of it!

Well, I don't think that the DSi is confused at all. They majorly updated it's ability to play games, and that is something that is a positive thing, as if you go by that, the iPod Touch and PSP don't know what they are either. So I am dead convinced on the DSi, it is a huge gaming improvement, and is well worth it.

[Hodapp]

Do you own a DSi? It sounds like the hardware is slightly improved and I'm curious if it plays games at higher frame rates? Also *sigh* I could trade my DS Lite in for a DSi but... I have the Zelda edition :(

[yourofl10]

I voted PSP ALL THE WAY FTW!!

[yourofl10]

Do you own a DSi? It sounds like the hardware is slightly improved and I'm curious if it plays games at higher frame rates? Also *sigh* I could trade my DS Lite in for a DSi but... I have the Zelda edition :(

it will work on the DSi

[brewstermax]

Do you own a DSi? It sounds like the hardware is slightly improved and I'm curious if it plays games at higher frame rates? Also *sigh* I could trade my DS Lite in for a DSi but... I have the Zelda edition :(

No. I wish, I was going to get on tonight, but I wasn't allowed. I'm getting one tomorrow though. Pokemon Platinum has lagged a bit on my DS Lite, so I suspect built in DSi dependancy. :| I'm going to try it on the DSi, and see if it is smooth as it should be.

[Ravenblack]

Possible downside is that DSi's games are region locked, although current ds games will still be region free. It matters if you intend to order over those quirky titles from Japan. Or if you are in Europe and you want a game released earlier in the US.

[brewstermax]

it will work on the DSi

He's talking about the DS itself. It is a Zelda edition, aka one of the various special editions. Not a game.

[anduril_ukr]

Oh my, after reading this Iwata asks (http://www.nintendodsi.com/iwataasks/vol2_page1.html) (and having a mighty good laugh at the stilted scripting) I'm less sure about the DSi.

I don't want to "play with cameras" or "play with music" I just want to play games, listen to music, and take photos with a camera. I'm not sure if the DSi knows what it wants to be. I wish they'd improved its ability to play games instead of adding these things that just feel kinda gimmicky :confused:

I think I'm more decided on the Lite now.

Vol 1 of "Iwata asks" is slightly less hilarious (slightly) and available here (http://www.nintendodsi.com/iwataasks/vol1_page1.html)

yeah, its so obviously scripted - theres no denying it

[brewstermax]

Possible downside is that DSi's games are region locked, although current ds games will still be region free. It matters if you intend to order over those quirky titles from Japan.

You can find unlocked ROMs and some game cartridges and get those. :|

[Ravenblack]

You can find unlocked ROMs and some game cartridges and get those. :|

A gamer shouldn't have to do that. :)

[Mencius]

Well, I don't think that the DSi is confused at all. They majorly updated it's ability to play games, and that is something that is a positive thing, as if you go by that, the iPod Touch and PSP don't know what they are either. So I am dead convinced on the DSi, it is a huge gaming improvement, and is well worth it.

Have they updated it's ability to play games at all? Look at this for example

Matsushima:
How we could make it different from its predecessors. Things like graphic capabilities weren’t going to change, but I wanted to convey a sense of newness to users. With regard to my own work on the menu, I needed to figure out how to convey what was new with Nintendo DSi—such as the camera, SD memory card slot and internal memory

So despite the faster CPU they seem to be maintaining cross-compatibility with the original DS and the DS Lite. As such I doubt there will be much at all that makes use of the improved graphics or speed in the DSi for playing games (in the classic sense). The only possibility for improved play is DSi-ware and that is still in a foetal form... though it could have potential.

[Vester]

OUCH psp gettin beat by DSi! i would like a dsi over a psp but since i have both its all good >:l

[brewstermax]

I can safely say for 100% certainty that the DSi is a massive improvement, and you are crazy to not get one. They are going to add most of their NES, SNES, GB, and GBA catalog into the DSiWare shop, so it is well worth it. Go buy now.

[RaZrVIN]

I can safely say for 100% certainty that the DSi is a massive improvement, and you are crazy to not get one. They are going to add most of their NES, SNES, GB, and GBA catalog into the DSiWare shop, so it is well worth it. Go buy now.

Argh, but I just sold my DS Lite because I bought an iPod Touch 2G!! Is it THAT worth it? And do you know how much it is? I may take the plunge if I have enough info that it is truly worth it...