Idea,Concept and Execution

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by Syndicated Puzzles, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    #1 Syndicated Puzzles, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
    The entire existence (energy) of building a new app at the moment is based on our belief that the proposed concept, will be profitable or at a minimum will grab some attention. The stores are so crowded that ingenuity is the only chance we have. Great ideas will still burn and crash but at least they have a glimmer of hope.

    Anything else is a waste of time for everyone involved, including the enduser.

    So now, I would love to know what criteria you use to assign a "green light" to a project?

    or

    What pushes that one concept to the "Top of your List" over all the others you are incubating?
     
  2. FancyFactory

    FancyFactory Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2009
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    #2 FancyFactory, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
    A very good question. I guess in the end you can reduce everything to: game = 10% and luck = 90%

    I, for myself, learned the following though lesson: the game I might love to play or I might love to create is FOR SURE not the game the world loves to play. So for my next top-secret game I choosed a concept that might not be MY personal favourite - but a conecpt that fits the needs of the casual app store gamer. No risk or niche concepts, no big-budgets for a lot of 3d art and a concept based on pure casual fun.
    So my upcoming game consists out of big "play" button and then the fun begins. No complicated GUI's, no gameplay where you need 10 tutorial pages for a basic understanding, no control schemes where you need more then a single finger and no gameplay sessions that will last for longer then 5 minutes. And from a technical point of view: Game Center, Retina display - and iPad / old gen devices support is a must. And of course your app should not exceed the 20mb limit. EVERYBODY should be capable of playing my game!

    Take a look at the big hits from indie developer studios: 90% of these games a pure casual games with funny characters, short gameplay sessions and gameplay concepts you understand without any further explanation. Simply casual gaming at best.
    The "big budget" games that sell well are mostly from big companies.

    So, for my next game, I green lighted a pure casual game concept. And I will try to provide the best technical solution for this concept I'm capable of. That means I'll outsource everything which I am not a professional. Yes, that costs money - but I'm sure the customer will notice every "not so good" detail. I envy all the programmers who can draw well. :)
    And yes: I'm aware there is only that 10% chance this game will succeed - no matter how awesome the result might be (see my first sentence). But hey, I still "believe". ;)

    Axel

    http://www.fancy-factory.com/
    http://www.facebook.com/fancyfactorygames
    http://twitter.com/fancyfactory
     
  3. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    #3 Syndicated Puzzles, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
    Fancy Factory,

    Looks like you are right on the money with your analysis. I think your game vs. luck ratio is off. More like 50 % luck and 50% game. Tough decisions for any indie right now. I am also not going over 5 000$ mark on any project at the moment, it is just way to risky.
     
  4. hspain

    hspain Active Member

    Mar 29, 2011
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    I think that what leads to most of the crap in the app store is the idea that 90% of your chance to succeed in the app store is luck. If that was the case, then the best course of action would be to throw out as much shoddy work as quickly as possible and hope you get "lucky" with wild success with one eventually.

    I don't think this is actually the case, however. Hard work, talent, genuinely good ideas and a willingness to take risk are all factors in what make success for iPhone games. There will always be exceptions (terrific games that go unnoticed and terrible games that make it big) but these are happening less and less and are definitely not the rule.
     
  5. Runloop

    Runloop Well-Known Member

    Nov 16, 2009
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    Southampton, UK
    I was talking to a friend today. I was telling him about the app game and how it's all about execution. You can have the best idea in the world and if you poorly implement it you can pretty much guarantee it will fail. You can also take an average idea, make sure the execution is flawless and you will have a greater chance of success.

    However, you can't polish a turd. ;)
     
  6. hspain

    hspain Active Member

    Mar 29, 2011
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    I couldn't agree more. It irks me when people complain about how some top apps use the same gameplay mechanics as other games that didn't sell so well, as though all they did was copy someone else's work.

    Execution is key, ideas are dime a dozen.
     
  7. Foursaken_Media

    Foursaken_Media Well-Known Member
    Patreon Indie

    I definitely think luck is less then 50% of the equation... a lot less. There is some luck for sure, but I would say that is by far secondary to making a quality, interesting product. I would probably put it more like game, marketing, everything else = 90%, luck < 10%... if even that.

    As for the original topic, I think developers really should be focusing on what games they WANT to make, and games they want to play. Chances are that if you're making a new, unique game that you've always wanted to play, there will be a large group of people out there who have also wanted a game like that as well. The hard part is letting those users know about your game... then again that is the hard part for ANY game.

    Now, the problem as mentioned before comes from actually executing that idea properly, and stripping yourself of as much bias as you can (which arguably is impossible, or at least very hard). This is why getting proper feedback from others is so important, and ACTING on that feedback even more so. For ex if no one is interested in your upcoming games thread, no one wants to beta, no website is previewing your game... take that as a heads up you're doing something wrong! -- whether its how you're presenting your game, your game itself, its graphics, or whatever... things aren't magically going to get better if you release your game without changing anything.

    Finally, as harsh as it may sound, I just don't think everyone has the skill set or is cut out for making games. The whole process requires talent and skill just like anything else, and a game designer/manager has to in fact have LOTS of skills to see that everything comes together nicely in one awesome, well executed package (from the look of the game, to the game play, to everything in between). Just like I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to compose a sweet piece of music, I certainly don't expect everyone to be able to create an awesome game. I just think a lot of people think because they enjoy playing games, they are able to make a good game... again, I don't expect someone who likes to listen to music to be able to write a nice piece as well....
     
  8. NinthNinja

    NinthNinja Well-Known Member

    Jan 31, 2011
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    #8 NinthNinja, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
    How to stack luck? In my case this is what I am doing.

    1. A game concept that has never been done before... It can be played in short bursts and on the move.

    2. The games controls can be configurable - from one finger touch (very casual but AI takes over the main movement) to various more than one finger control (this caters for more of the hardcore gamer).

    3. Polished art that works for all displays.

    4. Working with a team of people that I worked with on commercial Snes/Megadrive/Gameboy/Gameboy Advance projects. Because we have done this before the development money probably is worth more because of experience.

    5. Online leaderboards, achievements, and challenges.

    6. Multiplayer aspects to the game.

    7. Language support.

    8. HD output to TV.

    9. Multiplatform support - iOS, Android, WM7 and maybe Symbian.

    10. $80,000 development cost.

    11. $5/10,000 marketing.

    12. Focus testing.

    My views are if you are not doing the above you will not be competing in this market in a years time. This is a very serious business now and effectively money and experience are the key factors to succeed and the days of lone game makers making games for the App Stores will be coming to an end.

    In away it's very sad that it's come down to this now because people like to dream and dreams will be shattered for most people.
     
  9. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    #9 Syndicated Puzzles, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
    NinthNinja,

    Wow, you just ripped a sword through 94.3 % of all developers reading your post. I am still picking up my intestines off the floor and putting them back. If you are developing apps the way you are describing your tolerance for risk is legendary.

    Your prediction of big productions dominating the stores doesn't take into consideration the ingenuity and sheer volume of small developers. Strength in numbers and desperation are lethal combinations that will produce amazing titles by the little guys.
     
  10. JFPro Games

    JFPro Games Well-Known Member

    Feb 27, 2011
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    After reading this, I had to try really hard not to cry.. But, as much as I'd like to deny it, I know deep down that this probably is the sad, sad truth.. :(

    Regardless of the effort it will take to make a hit, I will continue to try. When making a game, I try as hard as I can to enjoy the journey of making it instead of all the money it will or won't make. Even if the game is a total flop, you can say that you know how to make an iPhone app. That may not sound like that great of an accomplishment to yourself, but to others, that's amazing.

    I've only made one game that I've released and it was terribly unsuccessful, but that's expected, right? Despite the disappointment it gave me, I told myself that I knew it wasn't going to be popular and then I moved on. Hopefully I'll come up with something better in the future.

    Yes, it is like the lottery to make that hit game that will make hundreds of thousands and be played and loved, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try. Someone's gotta have that #1 spot so why can't it be you? As long as you're not throwing crap into the App Store and hoping for success, there's always a chance.

    I may be completely off, but that's how I see it. :D
     
  11. Paradiso

    Paradiso Well-Known Member

    The video game market is so insanely saturated already that it takes creativity, money, and skill to have a shot at success, even in the AppStore. I don't say those terms lightly either. You have to be creative enough to come up with an original concept, be skilled enough to make it a reality, and be funded enough to develop and market it properly.

    There are exceptions, but in the majority of successful cases there has been a smart mind and a big wallet driving the project forward. These games that get "discovered" and go viral for a short time represent a very small percentage of total games released. It's the same for ps3, xbox, iPhone, and pc. Luck has very little to do with true success. If you make a quality product, with quality marketing, the money will come. When I say quality, I mean relative to the competition. These days doing your best might not cut it. People don't look at games on a case by case basis, they almost instantly start making comparisons to other games.

    Before you give yours the green light, ask your self, and others if it'll measure up to the competition.
     
  12. thisissudoku

    thisissudoku Active Member

    Mar 5, 2011
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    #12 thisissudoku, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
    I don't agree with it. I think we still have a chance. Innovative, successful games were brought to us to play hours and hours and those games were created by one developer and most of them without even outsorcing the artwork required by their game.
    I realized it is not the same store that it was 2 years, or even 1 year ago, but still I think we've got a chance.
    I don't believe in the concept that a market is saturated, we just run out of new ideas to bring to it. Our lack of innovation is what hurts to us.
    Try to create the new "Fruit Ninja", "Tiny Wings", "Trainyard", "SimplePhysics" and you'll see that we still have a chance. Of course, it is as hard as a rock from the chinese wall, but if one would be able to create it, well, in that case, it will not matter how many developers are or even how many of them are big companies.
    Just for the record, I released my first game one month ago and sales are low and it feels frustrating for at least, but I still think we've got a chance.
     
  13. Mykyl66

    Mykyl66 Well-Known Member

    Oct 10, 2009
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    I believe this kind of scaremongering is what the big boys would like us to believe. They want the pie all to themselves and the more the indie is scared off the better it is for them as they gradually up the average price of games on the store which suits them (and all other developers) better.

    I do crave a time when people dumping concepts out with no attempt at polishing the app (usually due to the fact this is the 'boring' part) is no longer the case.

    Cheers

    Mike R
     
  14. NinthNinja

    NinthNinja Well-Known Member

    Jan 31, 2011
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    I'm sorry my post was blunt - I was just pointing out what needs to be done to stack the odds and used my case as an example.

    I do believe the lone developer can still make a success but like everyone points out that is like winning the lottery... For me I'm not interested in lotteries and will spend money on the development and marketing.

    What you should be asking yourselves is what is the difference between lone Indies and companies like Firemint on the App Store. I'm using Firemint as an example because they were not publishers before the App Store and were just developers. The difference in App Store terms is nothing - anyone can compete on even terms or that is the theory. The difference is that they promote themselves as publishers offering a quality front and most important they spend money on development and promotion.

    Most Indies don't spend large amounts of money on the development side or spend on self promotion. The way I see it is that you the developer are a business and you need to spend money on the above things. If you don't you are just Joe Bloggs and will never be treated on a serious level.

    I'm just like every other Indie developer and feel the doors closing in... I realize that if I don't do this now it will be too late to do this a year down the line, so I've decided the only option is to step up and spend some $ to do the best game that my team is capable of.

    If all what I do fails then I would say the App Store belongs to companies like EA. I'm not entering with half closed eyes - I've had success on the App Store - but I can see the future... and that future is spend money to compete.

    I like the way Crescent Moon Games has handled themselves. From off one game they have become a publisher. But they don't mind spending cash, so they get the rewards.

    Anyways, I don't mean to be negative with these posts but I think someone needs to tell how it is now, warts and all.
     
  15. NinthNinja

    NinthNinja Well-Known Member

    Jan 31, 2011
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    I'm actually an Indie dev and my intention was not to scaremonger. All I was doing was just pointing out from my list on how I'm stacking the odds.

    But everyone must realize that the market has changed? Sure there will be cases like Tiny Wings - but they are getting rarer and rarer.

    But I really don't want to be classed as a 'big boy', I'm Indie through and through and I just realize that to survive the next stage of digital distribution then this has to be done.
     
  16. Mykyl66

    Mykyl66 Well-Known Member

    Oct 10, 2009
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    I guess my post was harsher than I intended.

    I do agree that if folks think you can develop games for tuppence, put them out and expect a real income from them then yes they are deluding themselves.

    Our first game sells some copies and has done for almost a year now with no real knowledge of proper game design or anything like that. I know we were extremely lucky on that point.

    We took a step back and regrouped and yes we invested some cash in certain ways to open up as many opportunities as possible for our future games.

    Tiny Wings is in no way a fluke. I have my theory as to why it took off as it did and no it is not just one thing. Of course theory is fine but without the right project to put those theories into practice its kind of pointless. lol

    Anyway We will put out our next game in the next month or so and see how it goes.

    Cheers

    Mike R
     
  17. dansu

    dansu Well-Known Member

    Feb 27, 2009
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    Hope springs eternal

    First of all, to answer to the OP's excellent question on project selection criteria, I would work on the kind of game that I personally would like to play the most simply because it's a lot easier to keep myself motivated that way. Other factors to consider include scope, innovation, competition, target demographics, coding requirements, asset creation requirements and, last but not least, business model.

    You sound a lot like Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight when he said, "I don't leave anything up to chance. I make my own luck." :)

    I mostly agree with your perspective. Trying to compete in the app store is a lot like starting a small business. If you treat it as a hobby, don't expect to make any money. Just be happy if your hobby can pay for itself. However, there are plenty of examples of people who turned their hobbies into profitable businesses. Of course, since things move so quickly in the app store, a small developer that finds some success should partner up and/or scale up quickly in order to maintain momentum. In other words, like you said, spend money to make more money.

    I wouldn't go that far. I think there is room for both big and small developers to thrive. Keep your costs low and focus on customer satisfaction. Persistence is also important because sometimes it takes time and multiple attempts before you strike gold.

    It's ok to dream but sooner or later we have to face reality. In the meantime, for what it's worth, I would like to share a few inspirational quotes with everyone:

    "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."
    -Lucius Annaeus Seneca

    "Luck is a dividend of sweat. The more you sweat, the luckier you get."
    -Ray Kroc

    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    -Sir Winston Churchill

    "It doesn’t matter how many times you fail. It doesn’t matter how many times you almost get it right. No one is going to know or care about your failures, and neither should you. All you have to do is learn from them and those around you because... All that matters in business is that you get it right once. Then everyone can tell you how lucky you are."
    -Mark Cuban

    "If children have the ability to ignore all odds and percentages, then maybe we can all learn from them. When you think about it, what other choice is there but to hope? We have two options, medically and emotionally: give up, or fight like hell."
    -Lance Armstrong
     
  18. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    #18 BravadoWaffle, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
    I agree with Foursaken. For our team, we make games that we want to play. That is the key to green lighting a project for us. If our whole team isn't super excited about a concept, then we won't want to pour our heart and soul into it, and thus it will end up being an inferior product if it gets done at all.

    A big benefit to this method is that our team spans a large range of gamers and we all have our favorite niche from casual to retro to mmo and rts. So my theory is that if all of us can agree on one game concept that excites each of us with our various and diverse tastes, it will also appeal to the rest of the gaming market.

    Either way, game making has to be fun. Since we do this as a hobby, if a project isn't fun it won't get done. So for us the key deciding factor in green lighting a project is that we are all super pumped about the idea.

    Maybe it's better to make games that laser target certain niches... but as an idealist I want to make games that span niches.
     
  19. EssentialParadox

    EssentialParadox Well-Known Member

    Sep 21, 2009
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    1) Study what themes a high proportion of gamers want and doesn't yet exist on the market.
    2) Produce the game well, testing throughout with focus groups until you hit upon a prototype they don't want to put down.
    3) Focus on great artwork, even if you need to put everything in your budget towards it. An attractive screenshot will do more for you than any amount spent on marketing.

    Number 1 is the hardest to get right. So many seem to release games they believe will be popular and only upon release do they discover nobody is interested. So it shows how deeply important market research is to this industry—I believe this is the one thing the indie scene lacks currently. I spent a whole year on market research before even considering starting development. If you're not doing anything in the way of market research, you've gotta ask yourself how that could be limiting your sales potential.
     
  20. Little White Bear Studios

    Little White Bear Studios Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Aug 27, 2008
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    I'd wager that your chance of making a profit, given your full twelve requirements, is much smaller than mine is. :)
     

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