Composer tired of developers that are not direct and honest!

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by DomAjean, May 3, 2012.

  1. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    Hi,

    It's been now 3 years that I am making slowly my way through that very wild jungle of the video game audio world...and I am tired of a certain pattern that seems to come back quite often...

    Seriously...We all know that this is your first or second game and that you don't have a lot of money...OK!? Now that this detail is clear, do you really need to let in limbo the composer that you just contacted because you got some issues with your teammates... or your pocket...or your personal life? Wouldn't it be more simple if you just say the truth and respond to the emails you receive in a very simple and honest way?

    It's not that complicated....I assure you! I have enough stress and anxiety in my life with my job and the bills and my personal projects...I really don't need to play to the game of the cat and the mouse with you guys...seriously...girls are enough for this game.

    Thank you for the reading and your consideration. I hope some of you will recognize themselves and think a little bit about their music composer relations.

    Dominic
     
  2. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    do you expect a final goodbye email from any potential customer who contacted you...

    i hope not.. you could be waiting for well... ever
     
  3. Moonjump

    Moonjump Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2010
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    Lincoln, UK
    Are you talking about developers you are already working with? Or unsolicited emails?

    There is a vast difference in obligation on the developer between those 2 scenarios.

    I work with a very good musician, and always reply to his emails.

    As a developer I get lots of unsolicited emails, from joining trade bodies to promo code requests. Composers are one of the more common approaches. I only tend to respond to them if they are polite and personalised.
     
  4. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    #4 DomAjean, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
    Well I think I should explain a little bit more then.

    I said, it's been 3 years I am in the industry...I know how it works Mr. Ugly!

    I am talking about a situation where the developer contacts you, and says something like: I like your portfolio! Here's some screenshots of our practically ready-to-ship game...we want this and that in the next days...is that ok for you?

    And instead of being an enjoyable experience...the story slowly turns into something undesirable ...something that you're doing everything to avoid...but nothing is working.

    And while you are still writing really polite and honest emails, even giving a custom demo to show your skills and what you have in mind for the project, the developer respond veryyy slowwly for a developer that wanted something asap(or doesn't even respond) and it ends up that even with the demo work you just sent nothing is moving...! I don't think it is too hard for the developper to take a little 5 minutes of his time to explain what's going on!

    It's now the 4th time that this kind of situation happens to me, the first time I lost the contract...the second and 3rd time it took a lot of time to finish the contract but I have been able to work something out...and now the 4th and actual time I am still in limbo...waiting for a response after the hours of work I have put in the project.

    I am sure I am not alone...I would like a little heads up on that if there is any composer that is passing by and has a similar story. Thanks.

    *For Moonjump or the others....if you guys respond to the emails of your composers and that you never had problems...then you are not concerned.
     
  5. Acumen

    Acumen Well-Known Member

    Apr 15, 2011
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    Kindergarten teacher
    Germany
    Ah that happen to each and everyone with each and every kind of developers.
    Programmers not getting replies from artists. Artists being left alone by programmers. Why should a composer not being hit by these sneaky persons :)

    I totally understand your feelings. But there's not much you can do. Learn from it, one seems to get better antennas for certain shady people, or just develop a system where you get at least some form of payment for your work - upfront, whatever.

    Happened to me with countless projects but over the while one can build certain relationships that will bring in more regular work and you're getting more positive collaborations and the negative experiences will fade away.

    Only thing you can do is to establish some sort of ruleset for your own work ethic. Asking for x-amount upfront or the likes, if you want to go that route.
     
  6. binaryhelix

    binaryhelix Well-Known Member

    Oct 15, 2011
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    Those devs probably sent out emails to a bunch of composers--a shotgun approach. Maybe they got sticker shock. I always follow up with people I contact, but the app store has brought in legions of developers of all stripes, so I'm not surprised some may be lacking in the communications department when "crunch" time happens.

    Also, it sounds like you put in some work before any agreements were made or contracts signed. Not sure why you would do this. Doesn't your body of work suffice to show what you're capable of? If you're ready to risk your time for speculative work, then just be prepared for it not to come through at times. That's the cost of doing business in this manner. Complaining about it won't change human nature or the messy nature of freelancing. You either live with it or change how you prospect for work.
     
  7. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    Hi,

    Thanks for the great replies.

    Yes, you got that one right...I did some work without having any green light. But that way of business have given positives outcomes in the past so that's why I went that way.

    Also...I really felt in love with the game in question and it has been a long time since I wanted to compose something for that kind of game...

    Maybe I went too fast or I tried to force the things a little bit too much...but now I am still waiting...a little email, even if negative, would be appreciated...o well, I will know for next time.
     
  8. Sure some developers may not be direct and honest, but so can composers, artists, other developers to working with a developer. Why commit so much time to a project you haven't even signed yet? I think experience is the best teacher and you may be learning a good lesson here.

    When I was looking for an artist, I contacted many. I can only choose 1. Many times I was waiting for a response, waiting for a quote etc. Don't commit too early and stay professional.
     
  9. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    Berlin, Germany

    to add to this.. i stopped givin "free" of anything to any potential customers..

    if my portfolio is not enough for them its not enough.. but freebie work they possibly try to collect from everyone they contact, is a big no go..

    thoose companies are usualy wasting your time..

    if your portfolio on the other hand lacks and you know it or potential clients show it to you.. then you should rather expand it with variety of examples you make from your own.. not to please some imaginary, potential or whatever client..

    my 2 cents..


    don't expect anything to change from them.. you are the one who needs to change in this case..

    cheers :)
     
  10. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    Well I think I stayed very professional the whole time.

    But yea this thread is not only about me...it's more about all the developers and the artists here that could have been in a delicate situation for no reason...like really...these situations could be avoided if everybody would be honest.

    So the next time you are not responding to an important email...think about what the other person is going through and stop thinking just about yourself, your game and your cash...

    Thank you.
     
  11. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    #11 DomAjean, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
    To Mr. Ugly,

    You are quite right on some levels...

    My portfolio is good, but I am about to make a big update to it because for now all the music tracks are cute and joyful:

    www.soundcloud.com/dom-lajean

    Thanks again for your replies guys, they are very informative.

    Dominic
     
  12. BeatScribe

    BeatScribe Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2012
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    Composer/Writer
    Illinois
    I get where you are coming from. You're probably very excited at the potential of work. But until a contract is signed, you should view everything as just a possibility. If someone contacts me and everything seems good, I start humming tunes and thinking things up immediately. But I don't stop doing other things or devote serious time to something that might not pan out. This way, at worse, I just spent a little multi-tasking mental power, and still, I have ideas I could probably use later.

    Sometimes its best to just to put yourself out there and then remind yourself that you'll be ok with whatever happens, don't invest so much emotion in something that is just a hobby and occasionally a job.
     
  13. Multiboy2k

    Multiboy2k Well-Known Member

    Feb 25, 2010
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    Watcher
    Could change at a moment's notice
    Op this is what I would do..

    I have been in the business more than 20 years now. You need to first request a retainer. Get 35-50% of your fee upfront as per contract. Then set a deadline for the rest. People see music as fun, but it is hard work when it has to be good. The best advice I can give you though is to KNOW YOUR VALUE.

    Dont just take a job because it is available.
    If you have monetary expectations, make this intention clear upfront before moving forward on the project. They may not like it, but you wont be wasting your time.

    Hope this helps.

    Good Luck!
     
  14. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    Hi Beatscribe and Multiboy2k!

    Thanks for the advises. I will certainly try to charge an upfront payment the next time and will not work for nothing anymore.

    Also, the person in question finally responded to me. He said that my demo sounded "fantastic!" but that the plans had changed. He mentioned that he likes my style and he will stay in contact with me for future projects... :(

    I think what matters the most now is to update my portfolio with all the music I have been composing lately so I can show a bigger range of my skills.

    Thanks again for the replies, it is much appreciated.

    My portfolio if you are curious :p

    http://soundcloud.com/dom-lajean

    Dominic
     
  15. BeatScribe

    BeatScribe Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2012
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    Composer/Writer
    Illinois
    No problem. I think I heard your portfolio before. I listen to everyones. I don't think of others as competition. They just offer something different than me. We all have our own unique take on composing and unique styles. I'd say you could definitely add some more variety and more tracks to your portfolio. Show off the diversity of your skills.
     
  16. multimage

    multimage Well-Known Member

    As a dev, the same thing happens on the other side.

    For example, the pixel artist for King Cashing was an outside contractor. I constantly needed to push the guy to know what the heck was happening with him. We had a tight deadline and at some point we were receiving 5 pixel arts per WEEK! And these were for 58x58 size images... We knew he could go faster because sometimes he could send 20~25 a week. But anyway, this added a lot of stress, especially when he sent something, I gave my comments with little modifications (make the ears less pointy) and then didn't hear about him for 4 days! At some point, I stopped asking for touchups and did them myself! Lost time that was not invested in coding...

    At least the guy doing the music was clear right from the start that he had minimum time to work on the project and to only expect stuff from him on specific days of the week. So while we waited for him a couple of times, it was expected and was much less stressful.

    But anyway, one thing that I learned is to not expect instant replies to emails. Sometimes, the other artist sent illustrations while I was in a 3 hour meeting. (Of course, 5 minutes after the meeting started) Surely I couldn't reply to him right away. But yeah, if it takes more than a day though, I can totally understand your feelings.
     
  17. DomAjean

    DomAjean Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2011
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    That's good thinking Beatscribes! Competition should exist only within our own work!

    Personally, I don't want to be better than anybody else. I want to be better than myself and to evolve, step by step, to reach my goals.

    I think that's what life is all about!

    And thanks for your development story Multimage, I took note of it and will try to be more patient with my future emails!

    Cheers!
     
  18. schplurg

    schplurg Well-Known Member

    Agreed! Working with artists whether it's graphic artists, musicians, a guy drawing my T-shirt design, dancers, can be very frustrating. I say this as an artist myself, it just comes with the territory.

    What I guess I'm really saying is that I'm surprised that an artist started this thread, as I have found that artists - very generally speaking - are pretty much flaky by nature, myself included. In my opinion, it is hard to find a true artist who is also good with business.
     
  19. nvx

    nvx Well-Known Member

    Jan 7, 2011
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    UK
    The same can be said for programmers, developers and some dedicated marketing people...

    Almost all communication breakdowns stem from false expectations or misunderstandings.
    The key is not to jump to conclusions and make harsh comments or take drastic action (such as dropping the project and not replying to emails)

    Plenty of artists and collaborators have (and still continue to) ignore what I have to say because they fail to see the big picture, their loss I say :)

    Bottom line
    dont be rash, either to accept a job or to end it prematurely
     
  20. dmn001

    dmn001 Active Member

    Dec 15, 2009
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    My 2 cents:
    Always setup a contract and get it signed and returned before you do any work.

    Ask upfront fees, mine is 30%.

    Ask for milestone payments for a long project, and deliver a project piece by piece and ask for feedback along the way.

    Watch F__ You Pay Me. A very interesting video with a lot of great advice.
    http://vimeo.com/22053820

    Good luck! :)
     

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