Controller support? no thanks!

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion and Questions' started by Pete Martell, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2014
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    #1 Pete Martell, Feb 21, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
    Not sure how it is in other countries like USA or whatever, but in Europe the apple stores let you try accessories for up to 2 weeks before having to buy them.

    So I tested both moga and logi for a week now as well as the BT one.

    As a gamer since the 80's having played a ton I drank the controller kool-aid bottom up.

    But... Boy were my expectations broken, not just about these 3 controllers but about controllers period.

    I tested a shit ton of titles and to my surprise A, only GTA:SA saw any benefit, platformers etc if done right didn't benefit one bit nor anything else I tried, case in point something like oceanhorn sega allstar racing Ava's quest bastion etc all played better without controller and I can play just as well and for as long as on a console or PC. Sonic CD and similar turned out to even make things worse. Bad optimization perhaps.

    Every instance of game I tried that had bad controls, expecting the game pad to swoop in and make it good all of the sudden, failed. Nothing bad became good thanks to the support of these peripherals. More like a realization and coming to terms that shit will stay shit.

    The more I tested in the end my conclusion is this, only one genre benefits from having controller support that is the FPS genre with dual sticks, one for movement and one for camera.

    I was hoping that would add to something like deus x but it didn't have support and guess what, I play it fine without after some practice anyway and as long as I face AI I had no issues with it.

    So after all the hype, expectations (not even sure what I expected any longer,) I played GTA:SA for an hour or 2.

    Here issues popped up, controls weren't perfect but I did prefer over on-screen controls. Battery runs out fast and the added batteries, both I tested, yielded only another 30-40% charge, tops and then of course I would have to charge the pad by itself and the phone when needed to also having it plugged don't work.

    Now you could say, jailbreak it or BT (with noticeable input lag,) craft a makeshift pad or phone stand then... Run your phone plugged all the time and have fun.

    But all I get, all I see is doing that for GTA:SA which I might add overheats my iPhone 5S nicely, what else is there?

    Anyhow, after all the expectations and waiting for this "thing" that was gonna turn my iPhone into a ... 3DS? That thing is worse with a worse game library so what was I expecting, a portable playstation???

    Then I remembered, not even GTA china town wars was really playable on a DS and I never seen a successful fps on a PS or Nintendo handheld, that has always been exclusively for consoles and PC, besides I know I am not the only one who bought GTA for an old PS and regretted it because the controls sucked and those had buttons and stick.

    I don't know anymore, because what I found instead was a greater enjoyment and love for good games with proper support for the iPhones touchscreen and I realized my biggest gripe all along with the thing was never a lack for controller support or arguably better controllers, even if they were more than adequate, a better made dual shock won't make the difference, I tested it, No-

    It is battery life.

    So instead of getting what I thought was gonna be making my iPhone my best gaming machine today, I bought a battery casing with a nice form factor and shock resistance etc.

    With the thing extending my iPhones battery by more than twice the charge, same price might I add as the controllers, I finally got what I wanted even if it wasn't what I was looking for.

    Basically, I do not see myself ever playing my iOS devices with buttons or sticks nor do I think it is needed anymore.

    Downside is no GTA:SA on my phone and I can live with that, got it refunded too after the heating issues.

    Now with the battery pack I play more than ever before. More juice is my new deal for making iPhone gaming better.

    So, sorry for the long post, anyone else with similar or different views on iOS gaming and controller support?
     
  2. Jorlen

    Jorlen Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it depends what your expectations are.

    Mine, for my ipad, would be to have controller support in some games and not all, and I expect it to work flawlessly when support is offered. Is this the case? Not sure.

    My issue though, is that there isn't any IOS controller out there really compelling me to buy it. They are all poor, and expensive.

    I thought about jailbreaking so I can use my PS3 controller that is sitting there collecting dust; I hear great things about this since the controller is actually high quality and there's a jailbreak related app that allows it to work for MFI stuff.
     
  3. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    Seems premature to judge iOS controllers based on three devices which were basically rushed to market on games that had controller support added without a controller to test it on, but, hey, internet.
     
  4. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

    Feb 20, 2014
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    The BT was offered to me for 50 dollars after 1 minute of haggling bartering. You should try it if the price is the issue. Ergonomics were more than fine but input lag was present.

    I tried the JB by a friend but other than a better build controller etc it wasn't much better or worth it in my opinion, other than price I suppose which would be real cheap secondhand.

    iPad at least I can see a reason for having it but my biggest issue on my iPad 4 was battery, on iPhone 5s plugged I can play xcom until I pass out but on the iPad even plugged it my battery would die in what felt like 2 hours maybe3 or whatever.

    Not tested the iPad air but the iPads 4 battery life got to me so bad I sold it late last year.

    Not just because of gaming but other apps and usage. My iPad spend more time recharging than getting used and no, I didn't have a faulty one if asking.

    Not sure if there are accessories to to deal with that though?

    I would like an Apple TV with game pad support but then we are talking consoles.
     
  5. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    #5 Pete Martell, Feb 21, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
    My name isn't internet, thank you and I tested it quite a bit even JB'. Also my thread title isn't meant to be inflammatory if it came across as such. Hope my OP was on point.

    Premature perhaps you are right-

    but even in a best case scenario based on this experience and trying to imagine that "good" implementation, I now do believe there is no such thing to be had. I mean sonic must be better with a controller right? I thought so and nope I was wrong, so maybe it is SEGA's fault? I thought so, until I played Ava's Quest realizing it would never need controller support.

    My argument is that a game with good touchscreen/controller support is good without and one lacking is bad no matter what.

    Again after all is said and done only fps or 3rd person like GTA had a potential benefit to me.

    So best case scenario we can play fps games on the go, but by looking at other handhelds and remembering my DS and PS days, likely not gonna happen. What fps or similar is selling PS Vita?

    Hey maybe I'll be wrong, I said the same you did until testing it all for more than a week now.

    I bet people will still be waiting for that great controller in a year from now and not realize it might never come, perhaps should never come.

    We'll see though, at least I don't have to wait any longer.
     
  6. kmacleod

    kmacleod Well-Known Member
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    #6 kmacleod, Feb 21, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
    I disagree, obviously.

    This is Apple making a serious commitment to real gaming. It's a sign for what the future holds, that gaming is an area worth making a real effort in.

    The first controllers were rushed to market in time for the holidays (and in one case, missed that deadline) - they aren't great. But they also aren't as bad as some people say.

    Many games are improved with the controllers, not just GTA. Jet Set Radio, Sonic, Tomb Raider, Oceanhorn, Joe Danger, Mikey Hooks, Final Fantasy 3, Shadow Blade, Spectre, Terraria - I'm not even scratching the surface here, but there are enough games in this sentence to keep you busy for months. And they all play significantly better with a controller.

    I think this segment of Apple's gaming strategy is going to be incredibly important going forwards. It's about the future, and the possibilities this opens up for Apple to enter new markets.
     
  7. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    #7 Pete Martell, Feb 21, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
    I didn't get any improvement on sonic or oceanhorn etc (last one felt even worse as do some others,) didn't try terraria and junk jack doesn't have it so maybe, I agree on GTA however and some other titles you mentioned I have never played.

    What I do agree with you on is the importance of gaming for Apple moving forward, absolutely agree with you on that and if Apple TV going forward will also work as a games console well then, controller support is very important for all the titles you mentioned and going forward.

    But for the iPhone, my mind was changed and I no longer care for using any form of game pad with it.

    I do think apple will go stronger into games and while I phrase my thread title as "no thanks" I do however not mind controller support on phones, of course hoping devs will keep making sure that the touch screen controls work perfectly and not get lazy.

    Maybe I am in the minority on this one? But I doubt I will ever change my mind on this. Love my battery case however :) especially with titles like KOTOR, xcom and bastion etc.
     
  8. kmacleod

    kmacleod Well-Known Member
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    You have a right to your own opinion about it, of course. Not saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do, just saying I strongly disagree with you. Personally, my iPhone rarely leaves the controller case anymore.

    Touch screen gaming is great for many different games across many different genres. But not all of them. FPS games are basically unplayable without serious compromises such as auto fire. Ports like GTA or Jet Set Radio are made drastically more difficult than they should be.

    I wouldn't worry about developers slacking on touch-screen support, at least not for a long time. Apple requires all games with controller support to also fully support the touch screen.
     
  9. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    I'll give you GTA ;) and then agree to disagree.

    But not speaking about controllers, how do you feel about battery life and how do you deal with it? The 2 controllers extra battery turned out to be a bit pathetic in my experience.
     
  10. kmacleod

    kmacleod Well-Known Member
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    I've never had any issues with battery life on my iPhone, so adding a controller with a battery pack only helps more ;)

    Seriously, if I'm at home, there's an outlet. If I'm in the car, there's an outlet. I charge my iPhone enough throughout the day that it never even hits the red zone.

    Hardcore gaming will kill your battery though, which is why it's nice that the controllers come with a little more juice.

    ...And why it is absolutely inexcusable that the Moga doesn't charge while connected to an iPhone, but then we're back to the whole "rushed version 1 products" thing :p
     
  11. Squablo

    Squablo Well-Known Member

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    I welcome controller support. I don't welcome what the "official mfi" controllers have to offer. Over priced, poorly built controllers are not welcome on any platform. I do find using a Dual Shock 3 controller to game on my ipad is a very enjoyable experience. With this in place, hopefully we will see more console ports coming our way. That is a GREAT thing! Why? Because there is no damn reason why we shouldn't be playing them. The hardware is capable, and now we have an option for a capable input device.

    I disagree with your opinion, and as far as I'm concerned, every game that I've played that had controller support played substantially better on my ipad than holding the ipad and using the touch screen. What's more comfortable, holding a 10" ipad and using your thumbs on a flat screen? Or setting that thing down and holding a controller?

    There is plenty of room for both touch screen games and controller supported games. Yes, there are some games that play much better with a touch screen, like BattleHeart, Infinity Blades, and Plants vs Zombies, but in reality, I'll take a controller any day for platformers, fighters, shooters, racers, puzzlers, and arcade games. RTS never worked well with a controller (exception - Halo Wars) and Dynasty Warriors has shown that a touch screen can work beautifully for RTS. RPGs? Also good on touch screen.

    So there you go. Bring on the controller support. The nice big screen on my ipad begs for it!!
     
  12. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    #12 Pete Martell, Feb 21, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
    Well, regardless what, new controllers do need to add more juice, the weight didn't even seem to be an issue so they could definently add more.

    Personally I hate playing plugged, feels so restricted so the battery cases I use now sure do allow me to play hardcore in a way I never did before even on a Nintendo handheld.

    With a pad at least the cord shouldn't be as much in the way though, even if I now prefer not at all.

    I also felt the controllers were too wide, the moga felt nicer before I put the phone in. If they do make a case they should try do it like the PSPgo or whatever it's called, slide down.

    But as of now, all is good for me, if I am looking forward to something gaming related it will be the next Apple TV where I would enjoy a pad :)

    "Where it belongs!" ;)
     
  13. kmacleod

    kmacleod Well-Known Member
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    I'd like to see both, yeah. Controllers like the Logitech are fine the way they are, in terms of weight and battery. But when you have one like the Moga, that already is too big to pocket, might as well go crazy with battery. Heck, I'd like one with integrated stereo speakers too while we're at it!

    I grew up playing consoles with the cords tethered, so to me it doesn't feel like much of a stretch tethering the phone to an outlet for an extended gaming session. No matter how big the battery is, GTA is engrossing enough to drain it :p

    The wideness doesn't bother me at all, personally. I actually really, really like the form factor of the Moga - I just wish it was built better and passed-through power.

    It wasn't clear from your first post - have you tried the SteelSeries? It's bluetooth, doesn't interfere with your battery case, and much more narrow (a little too much IMHO, but still good). No lag at all, either - bluetooth has come a long way.
     
  14. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    Ok maybe I will concede on the iPad argument. I don't agree with all that you said but by large I concur I suppose. Even if on an iPad I would stick to things like xcom and later hearthstone etc by holding it. But you got a good point.

    I do welcome you to download Ava's quest on iPhone right now, that platformer in my opinion is on par with super Mario and I see zero room for improvement on those controls even with a game pad.

    Also I am not against the adding of the controller support for games.

    Popular theory that Apple will release a console (most likely next Apple TV,) which would require it and by doing this work now it would mean that upon release we could all play games like GTA:SA on the big screen day 1 "as intended" :)
     
  15. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    Yes whenever I mentioned BT (Bluetooth,) I was referring to the stratus steel. But I just read that the thing got firmware updates etc. I however I experienced lag with it when testing a week ago, I didn't mind the size of it though or feel of it, as I also mentioned the apple store gladly sells it for quite a bit less than listed price if one haggles making it worth the price.

    But to me that controller would never work unless on an iPad maybe, no solution felt good for how to view the screen while playing on the phone with a separated pad.

    If Apple TV is a console next and the firmware did fix input lag I experienced vs the other 2 then I wouldn't mind it for using at home I think.
     
  16. kmacleod

    kmacleod Well-Known Member
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    Ahh, got it, wasn't sure if you were speaking from experience, or saying that was why you wouldn't be interested in a wireless pad.

    The Stratus had serious button lag when pressing buttons at the same time that you're holding the Dpad - a half second or more. That was the only lag I ever noticed. The good news is, SteelSeries just pushed out a firmware update today that completely fixes the problem.

    I see no lag at all anymore, and I think I'd notice it - I'm sensitive to that type of thing.

    Now with that said, I agree with you that an attached controller is much better for an iPhone.
     
  17. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    Good to hear about the lag being fixed.

    I do hope they make the next Apple TV a console.

    I would buy it in a heartbeat even with today's library only and the steel controller would be enough for me as well.

    I am thinking the reason for delayed Apple TV news is a way for Apple to be sure that enough games will be compatible.

    Would make sense anyway.

    And if not then... Well, I ain't buying another console that's for sure, Sony and MS killed my gaming enthusiasm years ago and Nintendo is closer to release games for iOS devices than they are making money on "quality of life" :p

    But for now, my iPhone 5S is getting as much game time as the old PS2 and original xbox got which is a lot (without a controller.) ;)
     
  18. Primoz

    Primoz Well-Known Member

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    Well, here's another opinion.

    I dislike controllers as well, but to me, a controller doesnt benefit to the gaming experience. It's pretty much just there to lower the fence between actual controls and the controls you are used to (feel the most comfortable playing with). As a PC FPS (mostly) gamer I'm pretty much allergic to controllers to start with. I also only (mostly) play with snipers, where mouse movement speed and accuracy are the two most important things. However I got quickly used to FPS controls on touch screen devices (thank you, Eliminate Pro, thank you CoD WaW Zombies) and they are far better than a stick could bring. Touchscreen can bring both, accuracy and speed as well, the only thing it lacks are more controls or the ability to use them faster. I strongly disagree with people who say that FPSs games on an iPhone are unplayable due to on-screen buttons. It's pretty obvious that you're just too stubborn or unable to get used to them.

    It's interesting to see how new controllers are bringing in touch surfaces and they are obviously not developing them because touchpads are worse than buttons. So in a way, we are moving backwards with controllers, where consoles are trying to approach what we already have. If those mobile controllers will develop in the same way (which they will), then we might see people in the future playing a game on an iPhone with an... iPhone?
     
  19. Pete Martell

    Pete Martell Well-Known Member

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    "iPhone with iPhone" :p

    PC player here since the 386 but I also played consoles a lot over the years. Perhaps this explains why as you put it?!

    I bet you could make an awesome GTA with great controls on a touch screen, but these are ports and heck, rockstar games are bad at ports, the GTA ports on PC were bad. Psst GTA fight/shooting/camera controls were never that great if I wanna vent here lol

    For sure, you could play an fps with just a screen, you are right.

    Still would prefer to stick with fps games on PC or console hopefully soon an Apple TV.
     
  20. Squablo

    Squablo Well-Known Member

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    I think your missing a very important point here. People like controllers, or in your case, keyboards and mice, because you can actually feel them. You know where the edges of the buttons are because you can feel them. You don't need to look at your controller to know where the buttons are, or keys on a keyboard. This is the issue.

    On a touch screen, playing a FPS, yes, the analog controls, or moving cameras, is much faster and more accurate than a controller, perhaps, but that's where any advantage ends. A button to jump, a button to crouch, a button to reload, a button for grenades, a button to run, and a button to interact. Don't forget the default weapon swipe box. These "buttons" are just zones on a flat plane. Not only do they take up space on the screen, but you have to look to see if your thumb is in the right zone. I don't know how many times I was just a hair off one of those "buttons" and died because of it. If you looking for "buttons", you're not looking at the action taking place.

    This is why we prefer controllers. It's just like these fancy projection keyboards. How are you supposed to type properly when you can't feel the keys? You can't! You're too busy looking to see if your hitting the right zones instead of just feeling them.
     

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