Hello, I didn't really experience it myself, but reading a lot of work-in-progress threads, I found some recurrent behaviour that kind of disturbed me : some users are disproportionately talking badly, or careless, to devs. This might be the side-effect of Indie Development, where devs are not shielded by a bulletproof Marketing service anymore, and become far more intimate with their audience. I understand users therefore see this relation with the dev as "buddy talking", and then don't really measure their words. I also understand that it's very easy for a dev to feel offended by a negative behaviour, as presenting monthes of hard work to the world is like presenting his baby. An effort has to be made from devs not to take things "too personal", that's a fact. But ... Sometimes, users make their opinion about the devs very personal, and their words unfortunately turn to gratuitous disrespect. I won't quote any existing thread or people, because I want to keep this post smoothly based around principles, not flamewars or judgments. Bunch of examples I saw : - dev don't choose user for beta test => user become agressive and starts to destroy the reputation of the game he formerly loved. - user strongly disagrees with the dev on a debate that has absolutely nothing to do with the game => user shouts that he won't buy dev's game - dev updates a Work In Progress thread with a feature some user doesn't like => user will start to ruin the thread - user has a grief against dev for whatever reason => user takes any opportunity to blindly trash the game in any thread - etc... I don't think it's a sane behaviour. Making no distinction between the human and the product is destroying what made the Indie scene so refreshing : it destroys the human experience, and then the will for the dev to be close to his users. As a reminder, it is that proximity which made the greatness of MineCraft, for example (Users were telling what they'd like in the game, dev would make it, iteratively). In general, it's that proximity which turns a lot of nice games into great games. Of course there are also a majority of nice people who know when they shouldn't cross the line, and who know how to express a disagreement without pulling the gun out. They are often well recognized by devs. But unfortunately, trolls, haters, and reputation slayers are so much disproportionately vocal compared to cool users that they're far more persistent in a thread history. So I'm making a call to have a clear distinction in our mind between the human who created our game, and the game itself. The game is not the dev : One can't say a human is crap because he created crap. And the dev is not the game : One cannot say he won't buy a game because the dev didn't like Pro Evolution Soccer 2011. I'm also calling to better measure the words we use when pointing to a flaw, or whatever we find not good. Some words that don't look offensive to one can be understood totally differently to other, especially when there's no particular precision. And considering how much time Indies are often sacrificing over their family, their hobbies, or their sleep just to make gamers happy, a bad word is easily 10 times more harmful to them than to a 30+ people team. As I wrote at the top, devs have efforts to do, too, not to overreact. But please, let's mind our behaviour if we don't want to ruin what's making the Indie scene so great Not everybody should feel concerned by this reflexion, but I just saw a (big) thread lately that made me feel very sorry for the dev. What do you think ? Is it ok like that and it's up to the devs to be bullet proof ?
This is a really great point. I feel for some people that the idea of an app is just something that shows up on the store and they play it. I have not been involved in any production of software but I do know that these people actually want to do something unique. It worries me that these harsh feelings will cause complete alienation between this forum and them. Part of the reason I grew attracted with touch arcade was it was great to be able to speak to the developers and hear about progress. I look at apps as a huge sacrifice and I can't help but be excited for people bringing them out. Some may be rough around the edges or not feature a specific gameplay element that people feel is crucial but the fact of the matter is that the harshness could possibly cause a schism in this forum and we could lose developers left and right. If I was a dev I would be heart broken to hear some of the comments I hear. I am not saying that it is all peoples fault but people are pouring hours into a product and all we get in some threads is that what they did is not enough. I love Touch Arcade and its transparency but I must agree with c0re as he makes a myriad of great points. I think of someone producing a painting. Hours and hours spent getting it just right and then he shows it to the public in a gallery. There comes respect in what they did even if you do not like what you see. I will though stress that I am not talking about censoring peoples comments I just seem to think that c0re has brought up a point that I think will only strengthen toucharcade's relationships with its devs. I may not like a game but I hold excitement and respect for a person to create it. I guess that is my ten cents on the matter.
I fully agree with you. Just because some people might be potential game customers, it don't means that they are above each and everything... god-like, so to speak. I really dislike this "you want my bucks so do what I demand"-attitude. Respect only works when it is practiced on both sides. I can only recommend to put idiots on "ignore" as soon as possible. P.S.: don't forget that some of the forum members are either kids, frustrated people without real life friends or people who never learned to behave.
Do like Vovin and use the ignore feature...something the dev-victim should practice too. Since we're not parents and the internets allows so much anonymity, rude/ignorant behavior on forums will never be in check.
I totally agree that is one thing i like about TA is the interaction you can have with the developers giving your own feedback to them etc. But if they are getting disrespected they will begin too feel they cant do that . As my parents always said too me if you have nothing good or nice too say , say nothing at all
I agree with what the op stated but I would like to think that a dev interacting with forum members has given this some thought beforehand (I would anyways) and for-see that issues could arise that are not positive. I've seen dev's handle such problems like a pro and probably did their homework before jumping into the forums to promote their game. Granted, one can never know what others will post in response to a game but preparation prior to this will help ease the shock of some of those unwarranted post. It really should come as no surprise being a forum and all if it happens. And totally agree with the ignore button, btw.
I think the bottom line is... some forum users behave like scum. It'd be nice if we were allowed to treat them as such, but alas, we must obey the rules.
The owners of this site need to take more control. There seems to be very little effort made to weed the 'retard' element out of our community. At a time, these forums were fantastic- now I very rarely visit them as the average IQ here seems about 50 Good threads are closed because members mention other sites, rather than just the offending posts deleted. I find this absolutely shocking and disgusting seeing some of the awful, awful rubbish that is allowed to stay. The awful members that are allowed to spout ill-informed and ill-considered opinions and like the OP states abuse developers. Something really needs to be done.
50 in average! I have 130 but a lot peeps have only 30. Sad thing is, you need at least a score of 55 to understand the principle of opening a banana correctly. Coldar: I'm sure most devs can handle negative reactions and criticism without problem. We're talking about people crossing a line, where duscussions haven't any sense anymore.
To be honest with you, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some here struggled with opening bananas.
Yea, I know Vovin but seems that the issue will always be at hand at this time and the only counter measure is hoping the devs wear thick skins when coming on board within TA although I agree totally that they shouldn't have to put up with crap postings. Its so easy to be ugly while doing it anonymously.
I used to show all kinds of work-in-progress things over here at toucharcade. Today there's so many people asking questions. Often it's similar questions and it takes a long time to reply to each one of them individually. And don't get me started on the trolls who are just looking to pick a fight. You gotta wonder if that's how they talk to other people face to face. At the end of the day it became a chore to wade through all the posts and trying to find the constructive posts among them. These days I very rarely post anything. I like reading the developers forum though, it's more relaxed and moves at a slower pace.
I heard a phrase once from a person in my command line class (this was about shell scripts, mind you) The end user will always break your scripts in the most unexpected ways. And they will complain loudly. Don't let the complaints get to you, devs- make a product for YOURSELF. Something you would play personally. Success follows when similar tastes collide, and with as big a market as iphone devs have now, they WILL. End users, however, need to treat devs with RESPECT. They programmed something that you now have the privilege of enjoying. Use constructive criticism wherever criticism is necessary, don't lie to the devs, don't try to force features on them. Sure, you may have a valid point, but if you try to force it on them the dev will start ignoring your input- Which is bad for all of us. Graphics aren't important for everyone, either, but style always adds points in my book, be it in mechanics or graphics. End users need to consider that gameplay is just as important, or more so, than graphics, and a dev should ideally be able to cater to both types of audiences.
It's fine to moan about the users and the fact this has gone from the best iOS discussion forum to almost unreadable, but the onus is on the site owners to do something. Surely it makes them sad to have the site so overran with mongs? Or is all they care about ad-revenue?
