Small fish, big scary App Store

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by Bangz, May 7, 2011.

  1. Bangz

    Bangz New Member

    May 7, 2011
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    Hi guys,

    I'm new to the forum, although browsed it many times to find the many hidden gems of the App Store. I am a gameplay programmer by profession (with many triple-A titles under my belt), but unfortunately I might be soon out of a job. But I am taking this as an opportunity to do something I have always wanted to do, go indie, but at the same time it feels like a massive risk, it almost seems unreasonable, and I was hoping to find some guys out their who were perhaps once in a similar situation and could offer me some insights.

    My initial plan was to create a fun little game that is quite simple (in terms of user input and accessibility), yet highly polished, with a code development time of around 6 man months. I would consider trying to get it out on multiple platforms (iPhone, iPad, maybe even Android). I would need to outsource most of the artwork (any idea how much this would cost?).

    It's really hard to get any kind of sales figures (apart from the big successes). What is the market like? Is it very hit and miss, based on luck? Or does a high quality game always at least generate some revenue? Basically want I want to know is, in a years time when my funds have dried up, will I be earning enough to live? I'd be very interested in hearing your experiences and words of wisdom :)


    Thanks,

    Bangz.
     
  2. Stroffolino

    Stroffolino Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Apr 28, 2009
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    If you want to get a sense of how unpredictable the AppStore is, do not look at games that are already in the top charts. Instead, follow the "new releases" for a week to see the sheer volume of completely new things entering the AppStore each day. Pick some games that are similar to what you're considering producing. Follow them using a site like www.topappcharts.com to see which, if any manage to get traction. Keep in mind that you're proposing to put 6 months of your time + asset costs into one basket - that's potentially a very costly crapshoot.

    There's plenty of sales data out there, if you're willing to look, ask, and interpolate.
     
  3. Little White Bear Studios

    Little White Bear Studios Well-Known Member
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    Aug 27, 2008
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    As someone who has been doing the App Store thing for nearly three years, with a reasonably good amount of success, I can honestly tell you it is a very big risk to jump in with both feet. If you're counting on making a profit, and supporting yourself within your first year on the App Store, the odds are very much against you. It's certainly not impossible, but please go into it with the knowledge that failure is a possibility, and said failure may have absolutely nothing to do with how great your game is.

    If you're planning on making a profit on your first game, you might want to shoot for three months or less of development. If you're paying an artist, it's going to get very expensive, unless you're paying via a share of the profits.

    The market is very very rough for the vast majority of developers. Yes, there are some big successes, but that is not the norm. It's all very hit and miss. There aren't many indie devs who have been able to consistently release hit after hit on the store. Yes, name recognition helps a lot, but it's no guarantee. Will you be earning enough? No way of knowing. It depends on what your living expenses are, and your definition of success. For me, I have to sell quite a few games per day just to break even, as I support a family of five. But for those single devs out there, they'd probably be ecstatic with my daily sales. So, it's all relative.

    As someone who does this for real every day, and has had a few hits, a few misses, and a few in-betweens, my words of wisdom are this:

    1. There is no guarantee of profit. Not today. Not tomorrow. If you spend six months making a game, be financially prepared for it to fail. And if your game happens to be a hit, be equally prepared for that success to end much sooner than you'd like it to. Build a buffer for yourself. Yes, you may have made $2,000 on your launch day. Heck, you may make $2,000 per day for a week. Do not make the mistake of doing the math on $2k X 365. The more likely scenario is that your game will be making $10 per day a month after launch.

    2. Game quality does not guarantee success. Quality certainly increases your chances of success, but if customers don't know about it, it might as well be the crappiest game on the planet, because it's not going to sell many copies at all. Visibility is key, and getting it is much harder than making the game in the first place.

    3. Start small. Try and keep your first game small and cheap, without it looking cheap. If you can figure out how to keep your costs low, but your quality high, your odds of profiting go up quite a bit.
     
  4. blitter

    blitter Well-Known Member

    This for sure is key.

    I think that you (Bangz) being a gameplay programmer, then you will have a good eye for what exactly to do which people will want. It's the promotion and marketing that I also find tricky...my background is physics/graphics programmer. Hopefully after more than 1 app then cross-promotion will ensure "enough to live on".
     
  5. Shaz

    Shaz Well-Known Member

    A very sobering post from Little White Bear - thanks. We're about to release our first game. Like anyone else we're trying to make something that's really good and has a good balance of fitting in and standing out. But then also do the harder (and less fun) part of letting people know about it.

    As our game has progressed I've had thoughts of leaving my day job (which I don't much like) to concentrate on the game and the marketing of it. But... as optimistic as I like to be, I do know that the majority of indie apps have poor sales. But sometimes it's all to easy to concentrate on the success stories we hear about. Perhaps that has it's use though - as motivation.

    When feeling optimistic I think our game has enough initial appeal to make it's way into the charts - and enough lasting appeal to sustain some momentum for a while. But then again, it's so hard to get noticed with the sheer number of apps that are released every week.

    The sensible devs I've read about try to create a portfolio of apps in a relatively short period of time. I wish I could work on more than one idea at a time - but I tend to get completely absorbed into a project which doesn't leave much room for anything else.
     
  6. plooper

    plooper Well-Known Member

    May 6, 2011
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    Defender of Earth
    Mars
    You programmers must have an invisibility cloak when it comes to me posting my desparate threads.

    Concerning artwork its cheap if you know where to go.:eek:
     
  7. Bangz

    Bangz New Member

    May 7, 2011
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    Thanks for the great feedback.

    LittleWhiteBear, it's great to hear that you're doing well on the AppStore, living the dream! And thanks for the good advice, it sounds sensible (less risky) to aim for a shorter development time, such as to not put all our eggs in one basket. And to put a great deal of effort into hype and marketing.

    Plooper and others, where is good to go for good quality 2d artwork? We do have working capital we can use, and I'd be happy to offer commission.
     
  8. blitter

    blitter Well-Known Member

    Reality

    How *not* to do things (attached). The first "mountain" was just after release and peaked at 110...you can see the rest since then. I think our app will do better on Android...something I never before imagined could be.

    Sure I enjoyed making the app, and I'm giving it an overhaul even though it's too late. Hopefully this can be finished before I *return* to the dayjob! Hopefully retaining time for the hobby.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. dreadwench

    dreadwench Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2011
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    where are these threads?
     
  10. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    I find it more than puzzling that people believe they will make easier money on android.

    And if people belive in cheap but great art they also belive in santa clause.

    @bangz: if you are someone with several triple a titles under his belt you should know how basic economics work and nothing comes cheap.

    Chances are more than big that you will fail so as with everything in life if you got a chance to get a job in the biz take it..

    Instead of putting everything into one pot try to aim for alot smaller projects to test the water with.. Something along a month or so at most.

    Get this done,released and see how itworks out. This will give you an good insight into how the store works, how promotion works etc.

    It makes no sense to me to gamble everything on one project.

    As a general note: i find it funny how people assume a gameplay programmer comes up with the ideas in the first place.
     
  11. blitter

    blitter Well-Known Member

    A fresh start, and 2nd chance at release. Timed to happen at a major update.
    Certainly not easier, more like using the experience from the app store for a better launch elsewhere.
     
  12. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    the only point being that the android platform is completly different than the appstore.. if you think you learned enough from a single tiny release on the appstore and take this "bucket" of knowledge over to the android platform.. then well good luck to you.. but hey you will find out soon enough what i'm talking about..
     
  13. Moonjump

    Moonjump Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2010
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    I think Bangz has the better approach. Quality takes time. And you will end up with a code base that can be reused. It isn't all eggs in one basket.

    There are far too many apps that have been pushed out too quickly with too little polish or balancing.
     
  14. Hercule

    Hercule Well-Known Member

    Dec 16, 2010
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    I'm almost in the same situation. I'm in the end of a production, and I will certainly have some free time between this job and the next.
    I didn't expect much in term of financial return for my first Game.
    I'm building a framework that will help me make better game faster and I'm learning how to market a Game.
    This will be usefull, no matter what.

    My only concern is to make a Game with good quality standards.
     
  15. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    i love thoose generalizations.. time= quality = reusable codebase.. what silly stuff

    a smaller product does not exclude to be polished

    but a smaller product limits the risk of a complete failure..

    an indie can work a year on a game and it still be crap.. time does not equal quality.

    and who talk about rushing stuff? no one..
     
  16. Bangz

    Bangz New Member

    May 7, 2011
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    Yeah, perhaps those are quite generalised examples, but I understand what both of you are saying. More time does increase quality, relatively, but less time does not mean you'll produce a lower quality product, but it does mean if you want a high quality product in a small amount of time you have to have a very simple mechanic, and polish it well. Our current thinking is in a 2 month project, to have it fully playable in 2 weeks (with 2 coders), with the rest of the time on polish and iterative improvements.
     
  17. Foursaken_Media

    Foursaken_Media Well-Known Member
    Patreon Indie

    Its definitely true that the more time you spend on your first game POTENTIALLY the more $$ you have to eat, and the more you have to lose... if you're making the game on the side while still pulling income in from somewhere else, then thankfully that issue is irrelevant, but it IS risky to expect your first app to be able to support you for a prolonged period of time, or even make back its cost. Not saying it can't happen, but its risky.

    We have a team of 4, and we all worked normal jobs for our first project N.Y.Zombies. Half of us had jobs for our second game Bug Heroes. Now, we're all about to commit full time, get real offices and really start to move this thing forward. Mind you, of our 2 games neither have been a "hit" in the grand scheme of the word (though relative to indies I think we have done very well). We've never broken the top 100 paid apps, we've never done advertising (which will change once we start pulling in more $$ :p), and we've never been featured on the front page of iTunes. Point is, there is DEFINITELY a solid life in the middle ground of the app store... I always see people say the app store is "hit or miss", but that is absolutely not true. Get a few games in the top 1000 and suddenly you're making some substantial money (especially if you're just a 1 person team).

    In the end the app store business is just like any other... while you have a VERY small chance of blowing up right from the get go, its more likely that it will take some time to build up a portfolio of quality apps that will start making you some sustainable income. And even then its not a guarantee.
     
  18. blitter

    blitter Well-Known Member

    Yes it's all different to someone like me! I think releasing any app on the store is a wake-up call the first time around at least. Now I like the idea of our app being even more universal, so Android seems a good place to make that happen. Polish can go on for as long as it takes, but when someone is new at this game they sometimes draw a line and release the app in the near future. For us we have learned the hard way and won't forget so easily that even at the lowest price entry people expect your finest efforts. The "bucket" of knowledge is a relative term. The main advantage for the first timer (who might have wishful thinking) is suddenly getting quality feedback from the various sources, then picking out the pieces and giving the app the attention which it might deserve.

    Well that's my take on things. Like the OP we only wish to at least survive, and continue to make apps plus support and enhance them.

    mr.Ugly your comments make a lot of sense when I put my thick skin on! And yes we shall find out, and be experienced a little more.
     
  19. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    i think the guys at forsaken media are a good example of realistic success on the app store.

    most people always look into the top charts without realizing that getting there is the most unlikely.

    so yes several sources of income are important in this game if you want to play it longer than the usual indie dev.

    if you rely purely on the success of your app store sales 99,9% of the devs will have a tough time ahead
     
  20. kam187

    kam187 Well-Known Member

    Mar 2, 2011
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    #20 kam187, May 9, 2011
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
    I wanted to give u an idea of the response to my game - since very few people share figures :/

    Game: http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=86015&highlight=walkabout

    Code time: 3.5 weeks part time after work
    - 1 week in game
    - 1 week menu's, and error checking
    - 1 week 72 levels creation
    - 0.5 weeks final polish and test

    Release date 7th March

    Resources: 100% free, or generated from free or by myself - i'm no artist!

    Response:
    iOS Paid 673, free 2,712
    Android: Paid: 371, free: 10,217

    I think this is typical for a 'nice' game, as in not some rubbish with broken UI, but also not a 6 month project with lots of fancy stuff and super amazing graphics :)

    Like most developers I feel my game is the best in the world :p but being realistic I know there are better out there, but i take solace in the idea that its not a tired old concept. I'm also satisfied with the result for my first game and to put my name to it.

    I think polish is essential, and if you do go the free/cheap graphics route you _have_ to make sure all the graphics work together. I see too many people take different 'style' graphics from various sources and try to make them work in their game and fail really hard. Its sad sometimes to see a interesting game concept and some munged together graphics and titles that seem to be created using those web banner designers - makes it feel like a website from the late 90's - animated gif anyone!
     

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