I have posted a pretty long post about crowdfunding in the developer section of this forum (http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=106583). Now I would like to know, what you as a regular player think about crowdfunding. Would you donate or otherwise contribute to a game being in concept state with a future release? If yes, why? If no, why not? If there are "conditions" for your participation, what are they? I ask this, because we started a campaign on IndieGoGo (see my signature) and I would like to know from the probably biggest iPhone community, what we can do better to get attention and/or if it is even worth a try.
No for a few reasons. - Not sure what might happen to a game in concept stage; will it even get to coding, or alpha stage or any stage. If this doesn't happen what will happen to my donation? Help fund future projects? Buy you a coffee? Contribute to your college fund? - I am bombarded with requests for charitable donations everywhere I turn in real life, I would like to come to the forums to get away from that and not have requests for money. - Say the game DOES make it and makes it big. Will you give people who donated a piece of the pie? Or is the money I give you going to be used for your profit alone? - It will be a very ugly place if forum members give you money to fund a failure. You know what they say about never borrowing from friends. Do you want your PM box to be flooded with update requests and updates on what is being done with everyone's money? - Sign up for something like Kickstarter which attracts people LOOKING to donate money instead of random forum members here.
Thanks for reply. You probably didn't read my post carefully. There is a link in my signature where you can read about the project and what will happen with the money and what reward you can expect. In this topic I want to get general information about your opinion about crowdfunding on Kickstarter or in our case on IndieGoGo (which is a similar site to Kickstarter, but for international users) not begging for money. We are new to this and we can't talk to people on Kickstarter, so I want to hear the opinion of this community, because with this community I can talk and in my experience it is a helpful one
@OP: I have considered the idea of contributing a few bucks to such projects before, but I've never actually contributed to any. The major issue I see is that internet scams are rampant, and there's no good way for me to know that someone on Kickstarter won't just run off with the money, or spend it frivolously. I guess the other problem is that most of the developers whose projects I would want to contribute to already have a history of good games and therefore wouldn't need funding. Those that do need it have little to no history in the field, and therefore no good way to measure their credibility or the quality of the upcoming project. Yes, we will always been given screenshots and concept art, but those are easy to decorate and they aren't always representative of the final product. @NEG: I agree that the forums would be worse off if they were filled with developers begging for funds, but it seems that the OP is mostly trying to gather information about whether or not to use sites like IndieGoGo or KickStarter, and not so much to advertise his project. I think that's a very valid topic for a thread. I actually wouldn't mind a single collective thread containing all of the KickStarter (or other similar sites) iOS projects, so that I could skim through them quickly, rather than having to visit each individual site and do a search. Also, if you believe the only reason to ever contribute to said projects is for equity, then of course you would want to look elsewhere. Investing in most iOS games would be a losing proposition, and the best ones are usually from developers that clearly don't need the funding. If I were to contribute, it would be because it's a game I want to see exist, not because I wanted a cut of the profits.
@Dazarath: Thanks for the reply. We actually have a track record on the appstore and we have games, which were Nr2 in US top overall. We have made a few hundred thousand dollars, but we have also high maintanance costs and more games which don't get so much money. Our company is running since 2002 (developing for iPhone since 2009) and you can think, that those few hundred thousands are already gone (or almost gone). We are working on new projects, but our dream project is a big one, so we need extra funding to be able to start it. I tell you this only because I want to explain, that in the business world if somebody needs extra funding doesn't always mean, that they are unsuccessful or scambags. Maybe it only means, that they have a lower success rate at the moment and they have to try to get the next big hit to be able to continue. Not even Chillingo or EA produces only hit games. If only unsuccessful companies would ask for a loan, there were no such thing like investment bankers.
This is true, but I think we can both agree that a non-zero number of those needing funding would fall under those two categories. And it starts to become a lot of work if I have to put in hours of research for each project that I might want to contribute to in order to avoid the bad ones.
These are the exact reasons why I'm against it as well. Like he said, stick to Kickstarter, it seems like it has the biggest community available.
Not necessarily. Look at IndieGoGo. How many game projects do you see there? Not too much. Just look for a project, that might interest you. I think you can sort out really quick those, which absolutelly don't interest you. Then look at those, which interest you. You can see then, how many work they have put into their description etc. If there is just a line like "gimme money", you can be sure, that they will handle your money the same way. Now you are down to 1-5 projects. Choose your absolute favorite and examine their description more exactly. They probably provided a few links etc. You can then search the net targeted for those companies or individuals. There are linkedIn, Facebook and other links on the project manage'rs profile. In the case of an iPhone app you just have to go to the appstore and look for that company and you already have their track record. You checked your favorite project within 10 minutes and if you are certain, you can make your contribution. It is OK, if you don't want to contribute, I don't want to tell, that you HAVE TO contribute, but I think, looking for excuses why you don't contribute is a bit far fetched. If there is a will, there is a way too.
Kickstarter doesn't allow to post projects for international people. It is only for US people, because they use Amazon and Amazon works only in the US. We use IndieGoGo, which is almost as famous as Kickstarter.
Yes I did read the post, you asked if forum members would donate to this, and if not why not, so I told you. I see the rewards and all on your link, but still don't see what happens if it fails? What if you do not raise the money in the days allotted? Will the money get refunded? What are someone's benefits if you succeed? (other than a token acknowledgement in the game depending on the amount you give) Unless you get some grand benefactor that really needs a place to give away money, I don't see that anyone on the forum will be in a position to just pay to have their name in a game. But stranger things have happened. But in this economic climate how realistic is it to ask for hand outs? If people want to help in a business venture it would be more likely that they would invest - expecting a part of the profit. This sounds like a silent auction to me -- a day with Brad Pitt to the winner of this auction! You are either a business or you are a charity, you can't be both. The Kickstarter projects that I have seen succeed are ones in which the fund money is really a pre-order. You will pre-pay for a product, you can even pay more and get a special edition product, but if the requisite amounts of pre-pays are not met by a certain date then your money is refunded as your product is not delivered. I know you can't do Kickstarter but it is important to have an exit strategy. People might be more willing to give money if it was a pre-pay for a product and know that if the money is not raised or the product is not released they are guaranteed a refund. Also it is totally reasonable to expect not to be bombarded by funding / donation requests on a forum. In fact, since this is just a discussion, the thread is open, but self promotion is not allowed. You DID say you depend on this forum for your business in your original post. If you do something like Kickstarter or Gogo etc, I think it is wise to keep business and pleasure separate. Asking potential customers for seed money is just not in good taste in my opinion. Could get you in a lot of trouble and just tarnish your reputation before you start. @Dazareth: I understand it is just a topic to discuss and not a request (sort of though - since the link IS in his sig and all) but the points I made I stand behind. How will OP feel if he fails and has taken forum members money - they will all know that they gave money to him and they have an easy way to contact him. Then again, he could high tail it from the forums and never look back.
I understand the things, you raise here and you are absolutely right... but.. So first let me explain my situation here: I started to think about crowdfunding a week ago or so and I researched a bit and I ended up starting a project. Of course, I would like people getting aware of my campaign, but this is not my main reason for starting this topic. I am also not begging for money to particular members of this or any other forum. I won't ask here anybody personally to back my project and I won't spam users. This is not how I do things and this is also not my intention. I really need opinions to understand, how those things work and TA seems to be the best place to discuss about it. I also believe, that this is a topic being worth to discuss about it on a forum like this. So let's say, my sig and all this is 10% self promotion and 90% curiousity and willing to discuss about it so we all can understand the mechanics behind crowd funding. Of course, as I run one, I will always talk about it from the other side, but I think, this is a good thing, because both sides can be discussed. Now back to the topic: IndieGoGo takes another route than Kickstarter and the others and they allow you to get the money immediatelly, while others only pay you, when the goal is met. This was not my decision. This was IndieGoGo's. As I said, I will now talk about my project, but you can see it as a general argumentation about all projects from my point of view. So, in my project I promise the backer getting the same money worth in game points back in game. We all know how freemium games work, so I think, I really offer the initial investment paying back in my game. So you can see it as you really pre-order that ammount of ingame points for later play. There I added many other bonuses for backers as well, so they get something extra. I extended our offer with a drawing of a tablet PC, so if somebody invest $25, he or she still has the chance to win a tablet PC worth of $600-$1000. I think this is the general idea behind ALL crowdfunding projects. To invest into something you like, because you like it and for that getting something extra. It is not always making money. With so small investments it is also pretty senseless to say, I give you back 100%. Would it turn you on to get back $50 if you invested $25 and would it make you rather be willing to invest in the first place? In the business world there is no business, where you get 100% interest, but in my case even if I would offer that, it is such a small ammount, it can't really be the turning point for you to switch from "I am not interested" to "I want to invest". And you can't assume, that I or anybody else will say, I give you 50% equity share of my company if you give me $25, can you? I know many people think, they should have their word even in the design process of a game, if they contributed only $10, but this is not how in reality works So I would say, look at it as it is: you are funding a project you would like to see on the appstore. And have some faith in humanity on such sites, because I didn't really see any complaints on the net from people telling they ruined themselves, because a scambag ran off with their money on Kickstarter It's also always good to read the terms of use on such sites. Anyway... I also state that we will proceed with the game so or so and if the initial goal is not met, the money will be used to start development anyway or for keeping the company alive and making our actually released games even better. That would be based on the ammount of money we can collect. So your opinions are very useful to me, but I would also like to keep this discussion objective as long as it goes and I would like people trying to be a bit more open minded, when participating. You could for example tell me, what would gain your trust in a project manager to contribute to any project on such a site.
Thanks for your extensive reply. I think though you are missing the point of my post. I, personally, would not back a game in concept stages. For in game money (even LESS so for a freemium game); for a part of your company; for anything. Simply because it is in concept stage and who knows where it might be next week. If there was a Kickstarter project I wanted (a product, not a game), I might consider pre-ordering it if I thought it was a unique enough idea that it would not come to the open market anytime soon. I don't do that for equity in the company, I do that for the product I want. I do that because I am assured of getting my money back if it doesn't come to fruition. Ok, well, let's go back to the game analogy. I bought Last Class Hero recently because the developers are working on a total revamp for a version 2.0. They had pulled the game until that was released but then put it back on the market and any money that they gained by selling the app would help fund them working on 2.0. I want 2.0, I am more than happy to buy 1.0 to help fund it. But if they never, ever, release 2.0 then I HAVE 1.0. I didn't lose anything. I had only everything to gain. I don't expect equity in their company, I just want the game. But I am happy I have version 1.0. If they decide in the future to release 2.0 as a separate game then I am still happy I have 1.0. So do you see the distinction? I am going to refer you back to your original post which was to ask: I am telling you my opinion on this as you asked. I am sorry if it isn't the answer that you were looking for. I am sure you want people to come here say yeah no problem I would do that. Then you could go off all happy. But I am answering you truthfully. No, I would not and I told you why not. I have listed conditions for when I would. I think you are asking the wrong people. This is a forum full of gamers with games ready to be bought at any given moment. I think the answers you seek are within some kind of investment forum. I am sure if one or two people see the game they MUST have and it will only be ready if crowdfunding was the way to get it done faster, then yeah you might get a few people to say yes they will donate. But not the numbers you are seeking. Especially if what you posted there was only Phase I. I hope you understand my post this time. Good luck with your project.
I'd rather have a return more solid than a bag of seeds in somebody's Farmville knockoff, to be honest. This, however, is the point where I would be instantly turned off. If I'm contributing money for a specific project, then naturally I expect to see that project completed, and would certainly not be happy with it never being started in the first place. If you can't manage that, I most assuredly don't want you turning around and telling me that you're no longer making the game in question, but have instead used the money provided to pay yourselves off. I'm not interested in "keeping the company alive"; outside of normal app purchase transactions, it's certainly not my - nor the public's - responsibility to give you money to keep your business afloat if you can't handle that yourself. It'd be more responsible to refund the money if the proposed project doesn't go ahead, so there's no chance of people getting scammed (for want of a better word) into contributing towards a project that wasn't ever really intended to be started, let alone completed.
Thank you. Those are very valid opinions. @New England Gamer: I understand you. I never assumed, that people will invest into it from here, but maybe they like it enough to talk about it on Facebook etc. Other people on those sites managed other projects into completition, so I think there must be somebody trusting them enough too. I want to know, what is it, that would get people trust enough in a project like this. @Appletini: You are right. I am also not happy with it, but I had to say something in the description. We already had our first $100 contribution and I was getting $89 from it (after IndieGoGo's fee and PayPal's fee). So returning the money would be already now a loss for me, if I would say, Ok, if we don't get all the money, we refund the rest. What do you think, would be a good solution to offer as an equivalent reward if the goal is not met?
This is now bordering on self promotion even further than it had already. Don't speak about how much you made so far - just stick to what you wanted as the discussion - would forum members invest in a crowdsourced game - if yes why, if no why not. My answer to the what would be a good solution part? If you expect investors to take a risk then YOU must take a risk as well. If the project does not come through then YOU lose the pay pal and Go Go fees by refunding the money. The part there "already now a loss for me" lessens your credibility. Shows perhaps not as much of a dedication to the project. If you were to say - I believe SO much in this project that if it does not get released you will get your money back and I will lose my fees - there you go - THAT is the credibility that answers your question - what would instill confidence in a project or a project manager. Not, if it fails, well you contributed to keeping our company alive.
Sorry, if it sounded as self promotion. It was not intended. (just as a remark to your "credibility" issue: we ARE dedicated, but we are also business people and we know reality and we were not given another option) I just try to figure out both sides and try to discuss it from every side and try to argue from the other side. I just wanted to explain, why it is not possible for somebody to refund the money, if he starts such a project in the first place. Would it be a good solution to say, that the collected money is going to charity, if the project fails? I think, everybody would be happy, because if the project succeeds, the project can be released and if not, we helped for people who has more needs. Nobody can say, that the project manager ran off with your money and the backersdonated at least once in their life to a good thing (I don't mean it in the wrong way, but let's be honest, how often do we donate for something?) EDIT: Actually this topic was already a big help for me! Thank you so far!
You CAN return the money - you just don't WANT to. Ok here is the other side - both sides when making an investment take a risk. You by your fees; the contributors by their contribution. The only way to show any credibility is to refund the investments in case of failure - the way you have it set up. IF you made it a pure investment - invest in our company and you get x% profit for every dollar you invest, then the investor knows it is a RISK to give money to you. Happens all the time. Person A invests in Company B - B fails, A is out money they knew they were risking. Happens in banks with mutual funds, money markets, etc. But with this you are promising name in game, product, etc. With no risk to you. Give me your money, I will TRY to fulfill what you want but if not, thank you so much for keeping our company running for our next fledgling project. You are promising an actual tangible. And that was only Phase I - you want like so much more than this phase's goal. Giving the money to charity is wonderful but what if you get 10 donations and they all want their money to go to 10 charities? How would one even KNOW that you GAVE the money to charity. You have to face the horrible truth - if you fail, (and if you are as confident as you say you are you won't) - then you MUST return the money and lose money yourself. Your side of the risk. The way this looks at best is you are trying to scam and collect money with no risk to you; the best way this looks is that YOU are the charity. And I say that because before you can again say - well we HAD to do it this way, I found the following on the first other game I clicked on: Provided I am interested in that game, THAT is a gogo I would invest in because I know if the target amount is not reached I am refunded my money and not funding your company as a charity case. Clearly IndieGoGo had that option and you chose not to accept it.
You are absolutely right! I understand you. Now I don't know, how to tell this not looking like I would want to selfpromote, but I say it anyway, because you are also referring to our project directly in your posts telling me, what I did wrong in my setup: Based on your feedback I changed our text with the charity thing. I also posted a link, where the money will go and I also said, we will post the confirmation of the donation. I was setting up the project around 3 am and I was tired. I didn't pay enough attention and I just went with the standard option probably. You are right. I could have chosen the other option, although they say something about "small" projects up to $10.000, so maybe that was also the reason why I skipped that, because our project clearly needs more. Unfortunatelly you can't change it on IndieGoGo if it is already released. Anyway. This is what I need to know, how I can refine it and make things better the next time (if there will be any). It hurts a bit, that you picture me as a scambag, which I am absolutelly not, but I thank you anyway, because this is very useful for me. So I know, how I can scam people next time better Just kidding! I just imagine, that this will be your first thought
The only way I see it is to either choose that option of not receiving the money until the goal is met - you have it set up in phases anyway, it would be easy to set that up as xxxxxxxxxx Phase One, and set the limit to 10,000 dollars. To be honest, a small start up with a small goal is more manageable for people to be interested in and comprehend. If you can't do that, then man up and take on your side of the burden and risk. Who cares about the charity, who cares about any of that - refund the money with you losing your fees. Then it does not look like a scam, looks like you are genuine and honest and willing to take as much of a risk that you are asking people to do as well. Oh yeah - next time you want input from the forum ask for it BEFORE you set up something, and NEVER set up something you are unsure of at 3 AM.
