iPhone Battle Academy by slitherine Ltd.

Discussion in 'iPhone and iPad Games' started by Werechihuahua, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. Werechihuahua

    Werechihuahua Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2010
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    Eternal labors
    Pensacola, FL
    PBEM is MULTI platform

    The "tiny universe" includes all the PC and Mac players. Meaning you have plenty of opponents. The Extra campaigns are cheaper by half than the PC/Mac and totally not needed to enjoy this game endlessly. The user generated content is all totally free, and is still coming at a good pace from a dedicated community. So the game doesn't "cost $50.00".

    You want .99 games? there are 500,000 of them. This is a big, great, full AAA title. It costs $20 clams. Everyone makes their own value decisions a hundred times a day, but this one was very easy for me. I will get much more out of this than any 20 tower defence games. Don't get me started on the Free to Play... getting to the 2nd campaign in Spice Bandits costs at least $7.99 unless you are some sort of savant, more if you buy any spice for upgrades or costumes. Don't ask how much I spent on Tiny Tower.
     
  2. dreadnok

    dreadnok Well-Known Member

    Jun 8, 2011
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    I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum I'm ou
    Farmer Harv we owe you a great debt of thanks for TOFTT
     
  3. djflippy

    djflippy Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2009
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    Quick question: how much did you spend on Tiny Tower?

    JK

    This game is easily worth the price of admission, if you are a grognard. Beyond that, I don't know and I don't care.
     
  4. hsthompson

    hsthompson Well-Known Member

    Jul 14, 2010
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    Do you have any numbers on those totals? Slitherine Field of Glory, for example has what, maybe 10,000 players worldwide, tops? 20,000?

    Certainly a point in their favor, of course.

    Yeah, I've got thirty or forty big, great, full AAA titles I've paid less for, and not even played :) For me, I guess the primary concern is that such a high price mark limits the market and therefore the number of players (even if you do include mac and pc), and I'm not sure that I could commit enough of my time to wrangle $20 of value out of it, much less $50. Given that I don't have a burning hole of time I need to fill, I just sit on the sidelines until it's worth paying for *even if I never play it* :) Sometimes that's $0.99, sometimes that's $4.99...fairly rarely above that :)
     
  5. jonnycache

    jonnycache Well-Known Member

    May 14, 2011
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    How much did you spend on Tiny Tower?

    I love TBS but $10 for the extra campaigns on top of $20.99 is taking the michael just a little bit. $20 all in and I would have eventually relented and gone for it but $50 is ugly.

    For context look at Ravenmark [$4.99] which is an excellent original TBS game that just released an entire second campaign for free.
     
  6. Farmer Harv

    Farmer Harv Well-Known Member

    Oct 20, 2009
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    While I fully appreciate that this thread is probably going to go nowhere beyond the pricing applied to the game and I hate to get embroiled in that, I do have to disagree with your statement that the game doesn't cost $50.

    If I buy what I consider to be the "full" game, meaning all of the campaigns included, then my bank account will have $50 less than it did. Whether the extra three campaigns are "necessary" to enjoy the game is up to the gamer, as some people are only interested in multiplayer, while others (like my father) will never face a human opponent and may never download a user made scenario either.

    I also don't think anyone here said they wanted a .99 cent game. Only that it will take a fundamental shift in the way people view the App Store if games priced at this level are going to sell more than a few copies (relatively speaking). I truely hope Slitherine does very well on iOS, but I just don't see it happening $20+++ at a time.
     
  7. Farmer Harv

    Farmer Harv Well-Known Member

    Oct 20, 2009
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    Sadly not much at all like Combat Mission. I played the first three (BO, BB, AK) to death for the better part of a decade, and CM is much much deeper than Battle Academy can ever be. Not that that's a bad thing, as they're totally different designs and CM had a level of detail that was possibly overwhelming for some people.

    Hmmmm. The initial 3 CM games on iOS...now how cool would that be? :)
     
  8. djflippy

    djflippy Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2009
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    Well of course the thread will degenerate, if you make statements like that, lol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please don't misrepresent the game to people. The game does not cost $50; the game costs $20 and it should be judged for the content that is included for that price.

    So let's talk about the content in the game; there's a ton of different engagements, on various fields of battle, on several terrain types, with a slew of different force allocations, both troops and vehicles. That's without the user-generated content, for which there are many screens of scenarios. It would take quite a while to play through them all. I don't know the exact numbers, but you or anyone else is welcome to quantify it with a number.

    In my opinion, quality is much more important than quantity anyway, and this is a quality turn-based, single or multiplayer wargame and one that I would recommend.
     
  9. djflippy

    djflippy Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2009
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    I agree on all counts and you can sign me up to preorder any and all Combat Mission games, if it ever does happen. :)
     
  10. Werechihuahua

    Werechihuahua Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2010
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    Pensacola, FL
    Value decisions

    I can't tell anyone what THEY are willing to pay for a quality wargame. I, for instance, have played maybe 30 or 40 great PC wargames by Gary Grigsby over the years from SSI and more recently Matrix/2by3. But I will be drawn and quartered before I spend $80 for the download only version of War in the East and $15 more for the expansion.

    I'm not saying any man is being unreasonable if he chooses to spend or not spend his earnings as he likes. Just that this game is very good. And that at $20 it is HALF the price of the same game on other platforms.

    Wargames are a niche market. I get that. But I'd rather play what I like with 10,000 wargamers than play Angry Birds and have 3 million school children and housewives for company. Ravenmark is pretty good, now that it doesn't crash all the time, and I liked it a lot. It is not in the same category as BA. That's like comparing Zenonia to FF 13 on the XBOX. Even with the second campaign, which is the same thing from the other side, it's a tiny fraction of the content of the base game of BA, without any UGC to DL.

    Imagine the publisher's dilemma... they have a great game. It sells for $40 in a box. But the app store goes snake when they try to charge $10 for it after spending tens of thousands of dollars in iOS development. Why bother? They might take the path of Day of Wonder with Small World and cripple it to only 2 players so you still have to buy the $40 game if you really want to play.

    Combat Mission Beyond Normandy, Afrika Korps, and Barbarossa to Berlin are great games. Still on my HD after all these years. You ain't playing them on iOS. If your point is, $20 is too much because you bought a great game on another platform years ago and still like it, I have no counter to that logic. Play and enjoy classic wargames, more power to you sir!

    As to how much I spent on Tiny Tower... I was too shocked when I tallied it up to recall the exact numbers. Suffice to say that I was what the good people at Nimble Bit call a "whale", and I deleted it from my iPod touch and iPad at once. Been clean for weeks now, no relapses.

    The theory of marginal utility doesn't have much to say about the objective value of entertainment products. But I believe a product is worth what the market will bear. The App store market is much more price sensitive because of it's wide mass market, everyone with a phone appeal. That's what made it huge. Now we need more deep, quality strategy titles to make it better. I don't think the intended audience for this is anyone with an iPad. If they wanted it to be considered as a purchase by everyone, it would be on the F2P bandwagon. I think we have enough Angry Doodle Rush Defense games coming out every day. I look forward avidly to GMT Games bringing some of it's great wargame titles to iOS, and Shenandoah Studios publishing 10 or so strategy titles on iOS. I don't look forward to hearing the screams when they ask less than half what they sell for on PC and MAC and people still vomit blood when they see a price over ten bucks.
     
  11. geoelectric

    geoelectric Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2010
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    Whoever said the pricing debate would go nowhere is probably right. It's priced low for the PC wargame crowd, and high for the iOS crowd. I don't see where there's a middle ground to agree on. :)

    For better or for worse, now that Square has (successfully) opened the door to semi-full-priced titles selling on iOS, I suspect many of the full-game ports will adopt this model.

    I just hope that for every one of these, there'll be another <=$5 Majesty or Ascendancy

    Anyway, I'm going to take the plunge on this. It looks like a pretty awesome game, and if the worldwide community on something niche like this is actually measured in the thousands, that's more than you can ask for from most titles.
     
  12. VimFuego

    VimFuego Active Member

    Apr 27, 2011
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    Brisbane
    Thanks to jonnycache for the heads-up on Ravenmark, looks good and worth a punt.

    I agree the Combat Mission series was (and is) great but also think that this level of complexity would just be unwieldy on iOS.

    From what I can see Battle Academy is trying to simulate as many factors as possible but keep it intuitive and I like that ... for this platform.

    Doubtless the development effort and polish is worth $20 (given this is the PC game) but the mindset now is, "Yes, but is it worth 4 of those pretty good $5 titles?".

    Given most games go on sale in a ridiculously short space of time it makes a knee-jerk purchase tricky.

    As an aside I'd like the Lemur app (music control) but $51? I'm still waiting for the sale :D
     
  13. badmanj

    badmanj Well-Known Member

    Mar 16, 2009
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    For me it's all about the gameplay. If this is really well done, engaging and with a nice difficultly/learning curve then I'm in. If it's a game that you need to be really into your tactics and micromanagement to enjoy then it's not for me...

    So roll on the reviews from those few brave souls who've taken the plunge!

    Though I can't help thinking there'll be either a price reduction or sale on this soon - this is priced too high to capture many impulse buys. Personally my impulse-buy level is at around $10. Anything above this, I'll be working through reviews, videos etc and need to be really sure before I buy. Below this, I just mash the 'buy' button and try it out for myself!

    Jamie.
     
  14. jaze

    jaze Well-Known Member

    Aug 19, 2010
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    Where are all the snide commenters on the touch arcade release posts, who constantly cry and belittle people for complaining about high prices, you know the ones who weep and bleet blah blah we must invest if we want high end games, the ones who scorn people for complaining about high prices. Where are you?

    Nows your time, buy this!

    I don't see many people here willing to take the plunge, just more price questioning.

    ...il purchase this tomorrow to play on a new iPad, hope it works with the new iPad, can anyone clarify that? Looks great and I'm glad to see a decent full game for 20 quid. I will gladly support, in hope more people release games of this quality at this price.

    I am tired of the 69p-1.99 regurgitated mini puzzle games that plague the app store every week.
     
  15. dreadnok

    dreadnok Well-Known Member

    Jun 8, 2011
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    I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum I'm ou
    I agree about Ravenmark they could easily have charged for all the new content and the even put out a lite version to let you know what you were getting, that would really help in this case
     
  16. DotComCTO

    DotComCTO Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2009
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    Chief Technology Officer
    Westchester County, NY
    This is exactly right. Slitherine are already marketing to a small market. At that point, it doesn't matter if the game is $10 or $20. I'd wager that the difference in the number of buyers would be marginal. As has been noted, this is a game for more serious war gamers. As Werechihuahua noted, this download version of Battle Academy carries the same cost regardless of platform. The cost is the same because the game is the same.

    I had a thread on Battlefront about this. The basic response was that the CM:BO engine is old and brittle; the costs involved in getting CM over to iOS would be too great and the market too limited to get a reasonable ROI. It's too bad, because like others here, I'm a big fan of the CM series. My brother and I especially enjoyed the PBEM aspect of the game! :D

    Changing gears, my original question about how BA compares to CM were based on some of the trailers I've seen. For example, I saw troops that can occupy houses in a city and attack from there; the tank movements remind me of CM as well (except the movement speed is super fast). I was also trying to understand the "realism factor" in BA as compared to CM. Basically, I wanted to know how good of a war game is BA, and is the AI smart? Is there the notion of fog of war? How does the BA scripting engine work? While BA looks to be a turn-based & hex-based war game, the trailers make it seem more fluid than that. So, those are the types of things I'd like to understand.

    Actually, I didn't' realize that I could download a trial version of BA for the Mac/PC, so I may try that and see for myself. I'd definitely plunk down the $20 for a really great war game on iOS...it just needs to be a really great war game!

    :cool:

    --DotComCTO
     
  17. Werechihuahua

    Werechihuahua Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2010
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    Eternal labors
    Pensacola, FL
    BA vs CM

    The Combat Mission series are unique beasts, the turns are planned like a turn based game but the simulation is executed in real time. The only other games to do that are imitators like Panzer Command Ostfront. Battle Academy is pure, old school IGO-UGO. The format is made for PBEM and simplicity. Units perform reaction fire automatically and intelligently so that there is no interaction required during the opposing player turn.

    The movement for units you see in the videos are simply animations to make it more accessible to non-grognards. The game would be as good with static models as far as I'm concerned. In fact I feel that's where Charlie M. went wrong with Combat Mission, spending all his resources on 3D animations and eye candy when the thing gamers want, realism, is hidden underneath and doesn't need a fraction of the horsepower or hardware to run. Shock Force would be a better game, IMHO, with static models and none of the streaking tracers and such.

    As to the speeds the tanks zoom around, the animation speed can be changed in Settings to your comfort level.

    The AI is totally scripted, and not any brighter than average. You won't find a dynamic, ever changing battle here. The scenarios seem to be crafted to teach a particular lesson of combine arms warfare each. The realism is great enough to reward historical tactics and punish mistakes, while not creating any 'gamey' exploits for people who want to break the system more than play the game. For instance, you see early on in the game the results of the British armor doctrine not providing any HE rounds for the 2pdr cannon. The Matilda II can stand up to massive punishment, and penetrate most enemy tanks in 1940, but against infantry it's firepower is woeful and it relies on close infantry support or gets blown up by close assault.

    The game does a good job of showing the relative strengths and weakness of weapon systems without bogging you down in details that a real commander wouldn't have worried about.

    I wish Slitherine would show up here. I feel like I'm a salesman by being an enthusiastic player of this great game. Man, I would love to see Panzer Korps and Commander Europe at War on iPad. It all depends on how sales are. If the wargame companies make a profit here, without major hassles, they will bring more and more wargames to the Angry Birds platform. If not, we'll be hoping the big publishers throw us a bone now and then by porting a 15 year old Ascendancy or such from time to time.
     
  18. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
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    Don't worry, when you write, "The AI is totally scripted, and not any brighter than average," you're not really selling the game.
     
  19. DotComCTO

    DotComCTO Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2009
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    Chief Technology Officer
    Westchester County, NY
    Werechihuahua,

    Thanks for that info; I found it extremely useful. It's nice to hear from another war gamer. I've been playing war games on and off since my (older) brother (that graduated from USNA) kicked my rear end on AH games like Luftwaffe! Now that he and I are both a lot older, I can manage to keep pace with him in some war games. :D

    FYI - I downloaded the demo on my Mac and started to play around with it. I like the demo a lot so far. I do see fog of war implemented.

    By the way, if the AI is scripted, does that mean it routinely falls for the same tactics (e.g., feint with troops at 1 location and follow up with larger troops at the flank)?

    Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Exactly my thinking. I'd like to see games like that as well, but realize I'm in the vast minority. The ROI has to be there for Slitherine and others. I'm going to play the demo a bit more, but will likely buy the game; it looks really good, and supporting the developer so we get more games like this is important.

    FYI - any thoughts on the add-on missions?

    Thanks again!

    --DotComCTO
     
  20. Slitherine Iain

    Slitherine Iain Well-Known Member

    Apr 10, 2011
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    Hi guys

    glad to see so much talk in the forums here about our recent release!

    We understand the price is not what many people exact, but our games only appeal to a certain type of player. Reducing the price does not expand the player base significantly. All it does is reduce revenues to the point development is unsustainable. We were pretty sure the price point would work despite everyone telling us it was wrong and so far we're delighted with the results.

    Battle Academy is currently at 19 in the iPad strategy charts in the US. In the UK its the 6th in the iPad strategy charts for revenue generated. Across Europe its top 10. When I looked it was the only app in the top 10 that was not freemium.

    We'd like to say a big thanks to all the players who bought the game and supported us.

    We have no plans to discount the game. We tried some experiments with pricing on our smaller test apps and found sales didn't help improve overall revenue generated so why mess around with the price and irritate your hard core fan base. Our hardcore fan base is our greatest asset and we do everything we can to keep them happy.

    I know the price will put some of you off, but we do know what we're doing and this is why we're one of the fastest growing publishers despite the industry as a whole struggling to survive with casualties every day being reported.

    If the pricing works as we hope it will it will allow us to bring a range of deep strategy games to the iPad. So far the signs are very promising.

    Best Regards

    Iain McNeil

    The Slitherine Matrix Group
     

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