HDMI out and gaming

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion and Questions' started by killercow, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. #21 Connector, Jan 9, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
    Night,

    I have a couple of questions. First, how well does apple tv mirror games that are not airplay? I hear there is a delay, lag, and sometimes intermittent wireless loss. Is a mirrored game playeable?

    How does an iphone look on apple tv mirrored mode with tv on stretch mode? Does it look anything like an arcade? How good is the resolution? Do you have a lot of borders? Can you get rid of the borders in portrait mode using the tv modes?

    I really wonder how iphone hdmi would work. It should be pretty good I figure, but not close to ipad retina. Also the borders would be a lot bigger I figure. Well let me know, and hopefully you will get hdmi too, I really wonder how mirrored iphone hdmi games would look like.

    Let me know. Thanks!
     

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  2. killercow

    killercow Well-Known Member

    #22 killercow, Jan 9, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
    This is an interesting theory but i'm pretty sure that the image displayed for apps is in 720p. It's written on the apple store and it is logical. But the fact that it actually downscale rather than upscale could be the answer to the difference in image quality. 1080p would cover the entire screen.

    About the Iphone in airplay: A bit of lag but no disconnection albeit with a lower quality than hdmi. It is displayed like the ipad so the ratio is the screen of the iphone (so it's rather small and in portrait it's even smaller). I haven't tried tinkering with the modes on my tv to make it fullscreen though.

    Edit: But nightc1 is correct, when a game is made for airplay it plays in fullscreen just like an ipad 2/3/4...
     
  3. nightc1

    nightc1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 19, 2012
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    It depends on the game, where the router & AppleTV are and the capabilities of the router. Some games play remarkably well, some are so designed around specific touch inputs that AirPlay is better for showing other people a game. For games made specifically for it like Asphalt 6, it can be heavenly since the screen of the iPhone changes to being a map and continues to be a controller so really there's no need to even look at the phone. Overall racing games seem to be made better over airplay. But yes there can be lag and other issues depending on how weak a network it is and so on.

    I think it looks pretty phenomenal. I don't stretch games that are portrait mode but landscape games that don't go full widescreen look good stretched. Typically if the app is designed with AirPlay in mind and it's universal then it takes on a full widescreen stance so there aren't any borders. Those that do have borders typically will stretch full screen without much distortion at all. It all changes from game to game.

    Unless my research is way off... iPhone HDMI is the same as AirPlay minus the chance of lag. I'd imagine that's the premium way to play. If the game is a universal build and optimized for airplay then the resolution should be the same as an iPad doing HDMI out for those games. So don't think of an iPhone as being stuck in it's limited Retina resolution. It can pump out fullscreen no-border gaming.

    I figure my use of an HDMI cable will be for the upstairs tv in the bedroom since it sits on a desk and it could be a good place to chill in my desk chair and play some racing games or other games that I think may benefit from the bigger display. For the most part, I'm cool gaming on the iPhone screen... but some games just seem to benefit a lot from the big screen. Asphalt6 being high on that list.
     
  4. So you believe mirrored games on the ipad 2 are 720p? What do you think the ipad 3/4 are, 1080p? Or 720p? You know, on my regular tv, it always shows what mode its in, 720p or 1080i. But in hdmi, it says nothing. I'm actually wondering now what hdmi standard is, I always thought it was 1080p, but maybe it's even higher.

    Yeah, all this stuff is a little confusing, even for me an electrical engineer and computer guru, all this stuff is confusing cause no one seems to know. I even go to apple stores, and a lot of those staff don't know all of the answers.

    Man, I would highly recommend to tinker with the tv zoom modes. I am sure it varies by tv, but if I didn't have all of them, I don't think I would enjoy hdmi unless I sat 5 ft from the tv due to the borders.

    My tv has 5 different modes, normal, wide, zoom, stretch, and panorama.

    I'm talking more about landscape games than portrait cause it's harder to stretch portrait games.

    Normal - normal
    Wide - zoomed in a little with same aspect ratio as normal but wider.
    Zoom - really zoomed in, probably like 50% of the old screen is now full screen
    Stretch - forced fullscreen (totally awesome, use this most often!!!)
    Panorama - force picture into funky panorama format with borders

    I actually use each mode differently with games. Rarely use normal mode cause, it is small and borders. Wide is ok, but isn't quite full screen, but this is the most realistic mode. Uses about 3/4 of the screen.

    Panorama is kind of junk other than to make a real long hallway affect, but its got borders big time.

    Zoom works GREAT on iphone only or games with borders like Dariusburst or Deathsmiles. With zoom mode, it is full screen and all of the borders from 2x mode or games are gone. Wow, dariusburst and deathsmiles look oh so good, better than in the arcades. Iphone games play well in zoom mode too, very little borders.

    Stretch mode, I use the most. It basically just stretchs the ipad screen to fullscreen. While it does distort the screen a little by the stretching, after you get used to it, it actually looks great. It makes it look more widescreen and have a hallway affect. It is great for racing games, shmups, dual sticks, runners and platformers.

    Without stretch, I don't think I would enjoy hdmi nearly as much. It is that drastic of a difference. Of course, this all depends on your tv, some people may have a lot of modes, some people very few. Give it a try, especially stretch mode, and let me know what you think.

    Too bad there is no real easy way to make portrait games stretched, while I would like a mode that did it, the distortion would probably be huge. It seems that a lot of puzzle games are portrait mode, and other kinds of games are mostly landscape. But I suppose it doesn't make a difference that much cause puzzle games are kind of hard to play on hdmi tv cause you have to look at where you press.
     
  5. killercow

    killercow Well-Known Member

    #25 killercow, Jan 9, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
    There's no typical HDMI standard. Nowadays it's 1080p but it will support the 4k resolution (and you can use it with any computer screen so it goes even higher). I still believe, based on how it's worded in the apple store and the fact that it isn't full screen that it's 720p for every ipad. Apart from those games supporting tv-out of course.
     
  6. I looked in the applestore for hdmi specs in mirrored mode. Here it is:

    http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD098ZM/A/apple-digital-av-adapter

    If you look under overview, it reads:

    Use the Apple Digital AV Adapter to mirror whatever’s on your iPad or iPhone 4S screen — apps, presentations, websites, and more — on your HDTV or HDMI-compatible display in up to 1080p HD (movies play at up to 720p).

    -------

    So I read this to mean all ipads 2,3,4 and output in 1080p. Now, it says up to, that us vague, could mean the ipad 2&mini hdmi mirroring is 720p.

    But who knows, to me, the graphics in my tv look super sharp, better than regular hdtv. Which would seem to me, 1080p and my explanation above for retina ipads. Again, it maybe different for the ipad 2 if it is outputting 720p.

    Funny thing is when I googled for an answer, two of the first page search results led to our TA thread! See below:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=are+apple+games+on+hdmi,+1080p+or+720p&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

    Scroll down and you will see us, haha. So we maybe some of the world's best experts in ipad hdmi mirroring to a tv. Sigh... Wish more people will be joining us with this amazing tech demo. Well, at least 10 people has responded to my post that they are going to buy hdmi, so that is good, even Syntheticvoid said he will be getting one soon. So more people will be joining us soon.

    And remember to try stretch mode on your tv. You had both apple tv and hdmi, with an ipad 2, right?
     
  7. killercow

    killercow Well-Known Member

    #27 killercow, Jan 10, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
    I had an ipad 2 but i sold it when I bought my 3rd (and then 4th...) gen. Otherwise I could test to see the difference. The quote from the apple store says that it's "Up to" meaning that it can go that high but it's not always the case. And I still think that it's only for hdmi enabled apps. Nevertheless i'm sure that the retina is affecting it either through downscaling or by using those better specs.
     
  8. nightc1

    nightc1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 19, 2012
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    There is no fixed standard. Each developer can decide how to implement video over AirPlay AppleTV/HDMI... and for many the bare bones mirroring is put in there. But when I go into landscape games scale through the appletv to the height resolution of the tv. Some games are special. Air Mail for instance runs with black borders all around it but because it's an iPhone app, it puts out a 13.5:9 image (translated from 1.5:1) which when zoomed in fits 16:9 a lot better than the standard 4:3 (which translates to 12:9) iPad resoltion. So technically speaking, for unoptimized mirroring the iPhone actually puts out an image that's less distorted when scaling to a tv and with fewer boarders when zooming than an iPad. But both can put out a completely different resolution through HDMI/AirPlay if the developer takes advantage of it. Asphalt 6 is the best example I can think of. The game is something like 720p over airplay while the screen on my phone becomes a map. Or video camera recording at 1080p, and over airplay I can watch that in full widescreen on my tv but on my iPhone it would have black borders on the top and bottom. Not as thick as the black borders the ipad would show for video, but still some borders because the screen is 1.5:1 (13.5:9) instead of 16x9 like the iPhone/PodTouch 5.

    So the whining about iPhone 5 support for many I'd imagine is also the same for full tv resolution support in games. Seems like an iPhone5 would be the best device for hdmi play for games that take advantage of that extra space.
     
  9. I think the minimum for hdmi mirroring on iphones is iphone 4s, so yes, you could use it.

    Every single game works in mirrrored mode. Plus you can stretch it to fullscreen too with zoom modes on your tv.

    Your welcome, enjoy Dariusburst.

    Read this whole thread if you got more questions about hdmi, maybe some of the other iphone users with hdmi can help you, if there are any. Think night is planning on getting it now, but most of us have hdmi for the ipad. Ask if you have any more questions, cause Dariusburst is one of the best games for hdmi, it really makes you pee in your pants how good it looks even though it isn't ipad retina. :)
     
  10. Yeah, I agree with you, but we were talking about hdmi mirroring, not really airplay. Airplay games to me, look 720p, I believe they can be made now in 1080p, I think..., but they do not look as good to me as mirrored games. They seem to use a different resolution format (widescreen) but lower density, and seem to output to the tv in 720p. However this is only my guess.

    Whether there are different modes to airplay, or whether it can output in 1080p if a developer chooses to do so, I really got no clue. And this all might vary by which device you have anyway.

    But the main discussion here was is hdmi mirroring outputed in 1080p to your tv, or 720p. Reading the spec sheet from apple really get you nowhere. Googling on the internet, sends you with links back here, haha. And right now, it seems that out of all our experts on Toucharcade, I believe it is 1080p, Killercow believes it is 720p.

    So what is your opinion on this night?
     
  11. Well, I would disagree because you are neglecting the zoom modes of the tv and ipad retina resolution. I don't know about your tv, but mine has 5 zoom modes posted above in an earlier post.

    It is simple for me to me to get ANY LANDSCAPE game full screen, use the tv stretch mode. Bam, all your problems are over.

    You are talking about aspect ratio, that isn't important when you can stretch the image. Then the most important thing is resolution. Since the image at somepoint has to be upscaled or downscaled, the higher resolution you have, the better the final upscaled/downscaled image.

    So to me, the ipad 4 would be the best device for hdmi, ipad retina (highest resolution) and the most powerful cpu/gpu. Another note is that tv seems to show 3d effects much better than an ipad screen. So the gpu ability of the ipad will help I think render better images on your tv due to this 3d factor.

    Anyway, does your tv have stretch modes? Can't you just hit a button on your tv remote, and bam, your landscape games are fullscreen???
     
  12. nightc1

    nightc1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 19, 2012
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    To me there's nothing more important in playing a mobile game on tv than the aspect ratio because that determines how much (if any) distortion that occurs when you start stretching it. So it's the difference in squares becoming rectangles and circles becoming eggs and side to side movement ends up faster than vertical movement (if the stretch is from side to side). So aspect ratio to me is very important. That can be the difference in a game being playable and a bit of a mess. Especially on something like a dual stick top down shooter.

    Anyway, I've picked out an HDMI cable with a built in usb charging cable so that should be pretty cool for higher end games that I want to bypass the wireless potential for lag with the appletv.
     
  13. masvil

    masvil Well-Known Member

    Apr 24, 2011
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    Same to me: unchanged aspect ratio and no cutted out areas are fundamental.
     
  14. #34 Connector, Jan 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
    Well, I'm definitely with you on the aspect ratio, I too am all for the best for sure. But when it comes down to aspect resolution vs graphics resolution assuming you can stretch anything to full screen. I would go with screen resolution.

    I can stretch all landscape games to fullscreen. It seems slightly stretched. Actually, once you get used to it, you don't notice much distortion from the stretching. In fact, on most games, the tv fullscreen version loooks more realistic than the ipad screen version. If I can, I will post a picture to demonstrate. Unfortunately, my room has not too much external light, so it is hard for me to get a good picture of it. But I will try later today to show you what I mean.

    Glad that someone is finally getting a hdmi iphone adapter. I am really curious to know whether you can stretch your screen to full screen in mirrored mode for landscape oriented games.

    For portrait games like some shmups, I gotta play like 5 ft from my tv, otherwise I find it too small. Can't stretch those games too much either. But in landscape, stretch mode works for almost all games. In fact for about 75% of them, I prefered the stretched mode.

    Let us know how iphone hdmi works. We're all curious. I just got a Gameloft duo gamer wireless joystick. With that and hdmi tv, my ipad has now turned into a true console. Great fun playing wild blood with the joystick and my tv. I'll tell you all about it later.
     

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  15. My new duo wireless joystick with wild blood on hdmi tv looks wonderful!
     

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  16. #36 Connector, Jan 15, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
    This is repulze on hdmi tv and ipad. Does the aspect ratio look bad? Not to me. Actually hdmi tv looks better than the ipad due to the hallway look. This picture is using stretch mode. I will post an airplay picture when I got time.

    Which do you think look better?
     

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  17. c4r105

    c4r105 Active Member

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    Both do look good and it wouldn't bother me. But you must see that the image on the TV has been stretched, its esp. evident for me on the ship itself which is which is wider, as is its exhaust. Having said that as I would the same thing and stretch the image to fit if I could, I done it in emulators for years. Also it can depend on the game and I would imagine in a future racer like this you would't notice, but in a game with more realistic graphics like humans and animals you'd notice it more. Anyway god thread and nice setup.
     
  18. psj3809

    psj3809 Moderator

    Jan 13, 2011
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    Connector has convinced me ! Just bought from Apple a connector for my ipad and (annoying !) a different one for my Ipod 5.

    But looking foward to playing these games on my large tv, got an 8 bitty external joystick which i can use for my 'icade' games.
     
  19. syntheticvoid

    syntheticvoid Well-Known Member

    Jun 20, 2010
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    lol... I just got my adapter and cord in the mail today... Gotta wait until tomorrow to check it out (the kids are home, and they own the HD TV when they're here...

    But I'm so excited! =oD
     
  20. #40 Connector, Jan 15, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
    Yeah, well, it is stretched that's for sure, but the main question really, is which looks better. About 75% of the time, it looks better to me on hdmi tv with stretch mode on, especially driving, motion, landscaped shmups, dual sticks, platform games, and many others. Puzzle games sometimes look a little funny stretch, but for me, most look better fullscreen.

    Of course, if you want to keep aspect ratios without any stretching, there is always normal, wide, or zoom modes you can do. Normal has a lot of borders, so I don't like it. Wide is kind of double the size, it is good, somewhat has borders, but original aspect ratios. Zoom is like 4 times zoom in, you lose a lot, but it is PERFECT for iphone only 2x games like Deathsmiles, Raystorm, and others. In fact, it looks better than how I remember it in the arcades, much funner too using the ipad as a touch joystick for shmups.

    Here's another example of one of my favorite hdmi tv games lately. Didn't really recommend the game due to bad support for lower devices and inapp heavy, but this game is a great hdmi tv game. Recommend it highly for hdmi tv or apple tv users. Great mirrored game in stretch mode.

    It is Catch the ark by Chillingo. I know I have been a little harsh with Chillingo about their freemium structure nowadays, but Catch the ark runs really really well on hdmi. Attached is a screenshot. Which one do you think looks better?
     

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