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  #491  
Old 03-13-2012, 11:36 AM
C.Hannum C.Hannum is offline
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iPad mini, iOS 7.x
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimEggers View Post
You paid for an app and immediately downloaded that app. Where is written that the product is never to be changed?

Sorry for my tone, but I'm just sick of this stuff. Enough already.
Nice non sequitur strawman No is forcing you to take part in the discussion, and since you seem utterly confused what the issue actually is, not sure why you're bothering.

I bought a stand alone game "premium" game that I will have to either delete entirely from both my device and iTunes, or only update apps one by one now and forever more because they can't be bothered to release a second version of their game. It's that simple.

I think games should be priced higher. I think people who complain about IAP as a matter of "principle" should be tarred and feathered. I think people who expect endless content updates on $1 titles for free should be sent to mandatory therapy. I think the endless, entitled badgering to devs on the forums to keep updating a product that was fine as-is (*cough*Battleheart*cough*) is the height of stupid rudeness.

However, I also expect that if I pay for an ad-free, stand alone title that is not designed around enticing the player to pay for consumable currency and premium items they can't otherwise get in the game that said game will remain as such; that I won't update it one day to wind up with a lesser game than I had before the update.

By all means the devs should make a freemium version with tweaked mechanics to lead people to consider opening their wallet if that's what they need to do to recoup their money (those who think they're doing this out of greed also need sent to mandatory therapy, I'd be surprised if they did much more than break even on this title), but having played the vast majority of the title, I can see no way changing it to freemium without severely altering the existing game can in any way work to the positive.
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  #492  
Old 03-13-2012, 01:11 PM
TimEggers TimEggers is offline
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iPhone 4S, iOS 5.x
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Hannum View Post
Nice non sequitur strawman No is forcing you to take part in the discussion, and since you seem utterly confused what the issue actually is, not sure why you're bothering.

I bought a stand alone game "premium" game that I will have to either delete entirely from both my device and iTunes, or only update apps one by one now and forever more because they can't be bothered to release a second version of their game. It's that simple.

I think games should be priced higher. I think people who complain about IAP as a matter of "principle" should be tarred and feathered. I think people who expect endless content updates on $1 titles for free should be sent to mandatory therapy. I think the endless, entitled badgering to devs on the forums to keep updating a product that was fine as-is (*cough*Battleheart*cough*) is the height of stupid rudeness.

However, I also expect that if I pay for an ad-free, stand alone title that is not designed around enticing the player to pay for consumable currency and premium items they can't otherwise get in the game that said game will remain as such; that I won't update it one day to wind up with a lesser game than I had before the update.

By all means the devs should make a freemium version with tweaked mechanics to lead people to consider opening their wallet if that's what they need to do to recoup their money (those who think they're doing this out of greed also need sent to mandatory therapy, I'd be surprised if they did much more than break even on this title), but having played the vast majority of the title, I can see no way changing it to freemium without severely altering the existing game can in any way work to the positive.
Thank you for articulating your points so well. It sounds like the gaming your after is what consoles are for, the AppStore isn't going in that direction anytime soon, unfortunately.

This game will go Freemium and exposure will go up and most likely income for the developer. Until that changes this will keep happening.

My only hope is that Apple starts a game trial program where players can play the premium games for a short time before buying. Only then will developers stand a change to circulate and hopefully sell the premium titles the few of us seem to want.

Until then Freemium isn't goiung away, hell it even gobbles up the games that used to be preiumum. A developers need to make money trumps our complaints.
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  #493  
Old 03-13-2012, 01:38 PM
Boobi Boobi is offline
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I have gone through several of these premium games to freemium and they all end in disaster. The balancing required has to justify the purchases therefore mobs become tougher weapons do less damage. I purchased Tower Defense: Lost Earth and the high levels became impossible. I was getting perfect clears, tough difficulty after the update even surviving on easy with one health was next to impossible. Towers had reduced damage mobs had more health waves were bigger and I paid $4.99 on day one. As an early addopter I was furious and game remains unfinished. Then To-fu, bought went free, no biggie poped the update and boom adds, non stop. Then To-Fu 2 same, I was prepared when I saw the free update but accidently hit update all on my mac and when it sync with my ipad it updated it. Now I have to update individually, since I see gameloft has changed some of their games to included IAP. I have north of 200 games there are times I have 50 updates and doing individual updates is a huge pain but the worse thing is I now have to check in all updates because not all developers include the info about IAP, free or changes to the game mechanic or addition of add banner. Example Cave bullet hell Deathsmiles, I mean the game cost me $11.99 and now I update and get adds. It has become a daunting task. So it pisses me off when another cash hungry developer who has wasted their money on drugs and whores does this. I paid for the game in full you want to recreate the game involving IAP mob adjustments, then its a seperate game and make it such.
No matter what lies the developer says and game changes they omit to mention it will fundementally make the early adopters suffer, and in the long term why would you do that? Since these are the people paying full price on day one? Again because the developer is short sighted, and needs cash to pay off the bookies in Las Vegas.
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  #494  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:27 PM
Johnny101 Johnny101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimEggers View Post
The behaviors in this discussion make me want to completly stop visiting this forum. How sad.

I don't know why you guys feel so deeply betrayed, like the developer has stolen your first born child. Really? The Dev is doing what they have too in order to be successful, it's what I expect every single developer to do.

And frankly you people complaining is probably a good reason why the Devs stop posting here, I wouldn't visit here. Instead of constructive criticism I see way too much complaining and bitter boycott statements.

Obviously we represent a sliver of the iOS gaming community but with behaviors like these I find myself trying to quickly distance myself from these forums and people on them, and I'm not surprised at all to see less and less developer involvement on these discussions.

That's the real tragedy here guys. Not some game update or $5 you spent months ago...
I don't think it's sad at all to be upset by the proposed actions of the developer.

The way your wording it is that the devs are the victims, not the the customers that have paid a premium price.

I really don't think it's that sensitive a subject. The developers are big boys, I really can't see them being offended by people upset about their decision to go freemium to an already premium app.

The right thing to do would be to release a separate freemium app, not to offend their loyal, paying fan base. I don't think that's too much to ask?

If your going to question's anyone's integrity it should be the devs.
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  #495  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Phosphor_chip's Avatar
Phosphor_chip Phosphor_chip is offline
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Hey all- official person from Phosphor here! A lot of interesting comments!

At Phosphor games, our developers come from a console / PC games background, and in mobile we are all huge fans of premium style games, and that is why we made Dark Meadow. But if you ever look at the top 100 grossing charts on iOS, you will see there are only a few ‘core’ premium games compared to 30 or so free to play games. The majority of the iOS audience won’t even look at a game unless it is free. Game development is a huge massive effort, and you really want to give as many people as you can the chance to experience the game you created.

That all said, we aren’t fans of “skinner box” style games, and we never planned on altering Dark Meadow to have paywalls or increased forced grind. The kind of games we play here are premium style, and that is exactly what we set out to do when we updated the game to free to play- it isn’t less of a game or gimped in some way, it is the original game, plus more features, and like the original version, you can buy in-app-purchases, but they are in no way required to complete the game.

Some of the new features (based on community feedback)
• New environments to explore (about 1/3 more), new boss creature
• Bombs that instantly take out most enemies
• Map so you know where you are
• Warps so you don’t have to start from beginning
• New weapons with special attack fx
• Health packs you can use in combat
• Made crossbow more deadly, more useful (as some of our playtesters have completed game without using melee)


Our intention was that we’d have one version of the app, so (future) leaderboards, etc could all be shared by same community. We always planned on turning off ads and gifting premium players, so we didn’t see any negative to what we were planning.

BUT it sounds like the community really wants them to stay as separate versions. From reading the forums, one large issue is it sounds like a lot of users have completed the current version, deleted it (as it is a large file size), and would like to check out the next one, but there is a good chance they won’t have save data, and they’d have the hassle of downloading the current one just to have a save game, then download the newer one, etc. All an annoyance we’d rather not give our fans.

SO we are keeping the Premium version of Dark Meadow separate from the Free one, and both will get all the new features. So anybody who previously purchased the game can update whenever they want, and they will just get new stuff.

iOS is a constantly evolving market- the market has even rapidly changed since we shipped Dark Meadow. Free to Play, if used correctly, can be an exciting way to include more gamers. Team Fortress, Jetpack Joyride, League of Legends have proven it can be a positive thing for their communities. Without putting it out there for you guys to try out, we won’t know how well this pricing model will work out of the gate, but we take the community very seriously, so please let us know what you think!
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  #496  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:41 PM
writingsama writingsama is offline
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REtracted.

To developer: thanks for separating them.

I for one would respond positively if you put a one-time pop-up explaining what happened and encouraging people to go review the free version positively. One-time is the word :-P

Last edited by writingsama; 03-13-2012 at 02:43 PM..
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  #497  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:45 PM
WCFields WCFields is offline
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iPhone 5, iOS 6.x
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphor_chip View Post
Hey all- official person from Phosphor here! A lot of interesting comments!

At Phosphor games, our developers come from a console / PC games background, and in mobile we are all huge fans of premium style games, and that is why we made Dark Meadow. But if you ever look at the top 100 grossing charts on iOS, you will see there are only a few ‘core’ premium games compared to 30 or so free to play games. The majority of the iOS audience won’t even look at a game unless it is free. Game development is a huge massive effort, and you really want to give as many people as you can the chance to experience the game you created.

That all said, we aren’t fans of “skinner box” style games, and we never planned on altering Dark Meadow to have paywalls or increased forced grind. The kind of games we play here are premium style, and that is exactly what we set out to do when we updated the game to free to play- it isn’t less of a game or gimped in some way, it is the original game, plus more features, and like the original version, you can buy in-app-purchases, but they are in no way required to complete the game.

Some of the new features (based on community feedback)
• New environments to explore (about 1/3 more), new boss creature
• Bombs that instantly take out most enemies
• Map so you know where you are
• Warps so you don’t have to start from beginning
• New weapons with special attack fx
• Health packs you can use in combat
• Made crossbow more deadly, more useful (as some of our playtesters have completed game without using melee)


Our intention was that we’d have one version of the app, so (future) leaderboards, etc could all be shared by same community. We always planned on turning off ads and gifting premium players, so we didn’t see any negative to what we were planning.

BUT it sounds like the community really wants them to stay as separate versions. From reading the forums, one large issue is it sounds like a lot of users have completed the current version, deleted it (as it is a large file size), and would like to check out the next one, but there is a good chance they won’t have save data, and they’d have the hassle of downloading the current one just to have a save game, then download the newer one, etc. All an annoyance we’d rather not give our fans.

SO we are keeping the Premium version of Dark Meadow separate from the Free one, and both will get all the new features. So anybody who previously purchased the game can update whenever they want, and they will just get new stuff.

iOS is a constantly evolving market- the market has even rapidly changed since we shipped Dark Meadow. Free to Play, if used correctly, can be an exciting way to include more gamers. Team Fortress, Jetpack Joyride, League of Legends have proven it can be a positive thing for their communities. Without putting it out there for you guys to try out, we won’t know how well this pricing model will work out of the gate, but we take the community very seriously, so please let us know what you think!
thank you
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  #498  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:51 PM
Johnny101 Johnny101 is offline
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iPod Touch (4th Gen), iOS 6.x
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphor_chip View Post
Hey all- official person from Phosphor here! A lot of interesting comments!

At Phosphor games, our developers come from a console / PC games background, and in mobile we are all huge fans of premium style games, and that is why we made Dark Meadow. But if you ever look at the top 100 grossing charts on iOS, you will see there are only a few ‘core’ premium games compared to 30 or so free to play games. The majority of the iOS audience won’t even look at a game unless it is free. Game development is a huge massive effort, and you really want to give as many people as you can the chance to experience the game you created.

That all said, we aren’t fans of “skinner box” style games, and we never planned on altering Dark Meadow to have paywalls or increased forced grind. The kind of games we play here are premium style, and that is exactly what we set out to do when we updated the game to free to play- it isn’t less of a game or gimped in some way, it is the original game, plus more features, and like the original version, you can buy in-app-purchases, but they are in no way required to complete the game.

Some of the new features (based on community feedback)
• New environments to explore (about 1/3 more), new boss creature
• Bombs that instantly take out most enemies
• Map so you know where you are
• Warps so you don’t have to start from beginning
• New weapons with special attack fx
• Health packs you can use in combat
• Made crossbow more deadly, more useful (as some of our playtesters have completed game without using melee)


Our intention was that we’d have one version of the app, so (future) leaderboards, etc could all be shared by same community. We always planned on turning off ads and gifting premium players, so we didn’t see any negative to what we were planning.

BUT it sounds like the community really wants them to stay as separate versions. From reading the forums, one large issue is it sounds like a lot of users have completed the current version, deleted it (as it is a large file size), and would like to check out the next one, but there is a good chance they won’t have save data, and they’d have the hassle of downloading the current one just to have a save game, then download the newer one, etc. All an annoyance we’d rather not give our fans.

SO we are keeping the Premium version of Dark Meadow separate from the Free one, and both will get all the new features. So anybody who previously purchased the game can update whenever they want, and they will just get new stuff.

iOS is a constantly evolving market- the market has even rapidly changed since we shipped Dark Meadow. Free to Play, if used correctly, can be an exciting way to include more gamers. Team Fortress, Jetpack Joyride, League of Legends have proven it can be a positive thing for their communities. Without putting it out there for you guys to try out, we won’t know how well this pricing model will work out of the gate, but we take the community very seriously, so please let us know what you think!
Thank you for listening to your fans!! Being a huge Dark Meadow fan, I appreciate it and will continue to support the Dark Meadow franchise!
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  #499  
Old 03-13-2012, 03:06 PM
dclose dclose is offline
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Awesome! I like this new plan! I realize that keeping two versions can be a PITA, but perhaps that will spur you do to Dark Meadows 2: The Freemium Attacks, or some sequel like that. Part of the way to survive the iOS market is not to have all your programming eggs in one basket. Your game is successful as is readily apparent from the passionate fans on this thread! It might not be as broadly successful as you'd like, but please build on your success, don't tear it down or rip it apart. It sounds like this new plan is a step in the right direction, at least it's doing right by your existing fans. Thank you!
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  #500  
Old 03-13-2012, 03:27 PM
awp69 awp69 is offline
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Thanks Phosphor_chip for listening to your fan base! Devs who are responsive and listen to the concerns of their supporters are the ones that will get repeat business.

That's the kind of thing I like about these forums is not just to "bash" a developer but to give our suggestions and to hear their thoughts. And, in this case, keeping them two separate apps is the right way to go!
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