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  #621  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:31 AM
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Syen Syen is offline
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Originally Posted by eflin View Post
I am no where near finished with all the upgrades but I do see it happening eventually. That said... I play on the train only so a little over an hour a day. Yesterday the train broke down so I got about 2 hours. Finished 2 runs and got 15,000 gold which was enough for a weapon and tome upgrade. But I do see your point. For many it might take a long time to build up for upgrades but my point is what else are you going to spend it on?
Yes that is true. One reason I did it like this (to take a long of time to upgrade fully), was also for giving the players something to do and aim for. I mean if you manage to upgrade everything is there much reason to keep playing unless something else comes new? Apart from levelling up to 999 of course!

As you said its really nice if someone wants to play the game "casually" for a long time, even 2 hours per day, but he gets that little progress going. Now ofc some people want to power level and unlock everything very fast (and they usually do like through strategies that perfect their runs and make them earn 40-50k in one run), that is of course very hard (with the scaling of final dungeons) and especially without me having yet a dungeon run restore mechanism but I plan to give that option too.

Also the later upgrades were meant to be easier to get when you are a higher level, which usually translates into much more efficient farming and survivability. For example I did not want a level 200 character to have almost everything upgraded, not sure if that makes sense or you agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eflin View Post
As for your points on the merchant I agree with it. That's why I said maybe it doesn't matter. We both seem to agree the merchant isn't good for newbies but I still think many casuals might go "hey a merchant. Sure let's try it" and not know better. Then they might feel its a waste. But either way as long as its considered I'm content :- )
One option i was thinking about was to disable the merchant for the first 1 (or 2) dungeons, the merchant is really relevant for later dungeons because it is really needed with the additional difficulty (well after I balance it especially) and adds a nice layer of strategy. As you said in low levels indeed it doesn't matter so much, and may actually confuse players. Maybe it is better someone first learns to play the basic game and when reaches the 2nd or 3rd dungeon he gets to see the new possibilities.

Of course nice balancing would come together with this potential idea to make it relevant. I really want people who are good players and have opened the latest dungeons to actually farm on these dungeons, so if for example you are a good player and you seem to only farm 2nd/3rd dungeon then probably the balance is wrong! Any feedback on this idea?
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  #622  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:39 AM
Estrica Estrica is offline
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I like the idea to add merchant to only lower dungeons, but the merchant actually has a value in the first dungeons too. They give you money early on. You probably don't want to buy anything but 1-2 money powerups from it, so most of the times you kill it and get money or use your extra turn to heal. It can be a big help.
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  #623  
Old 11-13-2012, 08:47 AM
eflin eflin is offline
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Originally Posted by Syen View Post
For example I did not want a level 200 character to have almost everything upgraded, not sure if that makes sense or you agree.
Completely agree. The only thing that needs some tweaking is the amount of upgrade you get for the cost. Maybe it fixes itself at the higher unlocks... but some of the mid tier ones (where I am now) definitely seem underwhelming. Paying 15,000 gold to get + 12 to my attack (when I gained more than 12 levels getting that 15,000 gold) is a little underwhelming. It's a tough balance but I do think you could buff it a little. Every upgrade should feel like a big improvement (since you had to save for it) so I'd rather see you increase the difficulty of the later dungeons but also give big buffs to the equipment to counter it. Then people will feel noticeable buffs for each equipment piece they buy and it won't break the balance. The early equips for example feel great. That early in the game they significantly improve you for a cheap cost.

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Originally Posted by Syen View Post
One option i was thinking about was to disable the merchant for the first 1 (or 2) dungeons,
This would also be a good fix. Kind of the same intent of my idea of capping him in the early dungeons but maybe even better... This would allow newbies to get used to the game before seeing the merchant as you pointed out which might be a good thing. It will make the upgrade screen in town even more confusing though. They'll see it and think... what does this upgrade? Again I think that whole thing should just be removed as it's a little weird IMO. If you want some barrier to higher level skills just make them cost noticeably more after level 5 for example. Seems odd to pay for the ability to BUY something. Just put it all in the cost at the merchant. Cleaner, simpler, and it removes one more screen from the menus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syen View Post
Of course nice balancing would come together with this potential idea to make it relevant. I really want people who are good players and have opened the latest dungeons to actually farm on these dungeons, so if for example you are a good player and you seem to only farm 2nd/3rd dungeon then probably the balance is wrong! Any feedback on this idea?
This is exactly what you should be doing in my opinion. In fact you the developer are in the unique situation of being able to test each dungeon with people at various levels/equipment to tune theme appropriately. All I can tell you is how it feels for my guy. I'm at level 250 right now (with the reasonable equipment one would have at that level) and I'm just able to farm the third dungeon well now. The 2nd is still more profitable but the third is very doable. Give me some time though and I think I'll be able to do the 4th too.

In fact I think the dungeons are tuned pretty well right now. There are noticeable walls going from 2-3 and from 3-4 but that is good. Otherwise people will blow through the game too quickly.
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  #624  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:12 AM
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Syen Syen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflin View Post
I'm at level 250 right now (with the reasonable equipment one would have at that level) and I'm just able to farm the third dungeon well now. The 2nd is still more profitable but the third is very doable. Give me some time though and I think I'll be able to do the 4th too.

In fact I think the dungeons are tuned pretty well right now. There are noticeable walls going from 2-3 and from 3-4 but that is good. Otherwise people will blow through the game too quickly.
Nice comments mate!

I think what you describe here is one of the ways people feel rewarded in this game. Every time a new dungeon/difficulty opens they find it hard and keep dying fast, but after a few hours/days of playing and upgrading their character they go back to that difficulty and this time they can completely devastate everything! Its a quite nice sense of progression i think and feels nice to see your character grow and be able to pass "walls" that seemed really hard before!

Of course many people may get bored of the grinding and quit early or play very very casually to see substantial progress, but i think its a matter of both game balancing and personal taste. Some people really love the grinding aspect, and they don't mind to have a game to play for weeks, some people want to create the best character possible in a weekend, some people love the strategic aspect, some love a combination of the above, it is quite hard to find the right balance without making one of the sides feeling weird!
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  #625  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:58 PM
eflin eflin is offline
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Regarding removing the merchant from the first two dungeons... I thought about it and the merchant in the 2nd dungeon really helped me get the fund needed to do the third dungeon. So I still like the idea of capping him more. Maybe it could be even more extreme than what I suggested though...

First dungeon = 2 levels max
2nd dungeon = 4 levels max
3rd dungeon = 8 levels max
4th + 5th = all levels

Just a thought. Removing the merchant from the 2nd might make the wall between the 2nd and 3rd dungeons a lot harder is what I'm getting at.
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  #626  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:44 PM
Ruzu Ruzu is offline
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@ eflin and Syen

Judging from what you guys are trying to say, maybe I really should start using the items? Syens comment about being able to dominate the harder dungeons leaves me confused. No matter how much I raise my stats, the difficulty always feels the same per dungeon no matter what. I don't feel any stronger the higher I level, in fact, the fight feels the same whether I'm tackling on the 5th dungeon at level 250, or at 350. Nothing appears to be different except the monster's damage seems to scale at the same rate as my damage.

The only issue I have with the items is that I DID try to use the shield at one point, but I didn't notice any difference. It seemed like a waste of energy because I still died at the same rate compared to if I didn't use it.

I feel as though the merchant shouldn't be removed... it is still a core part of the game. Maybe only reveal it after the player collects a certain amount of gold/level/stats? Like when it actually becomes useful? As for capping it, that idea doesn't sit well with me. You shouldn't be locked out of the stronger content simply because it would be to OP then. The higher level investments cost a lot, so it's your decision and luxury whether you want to invest. I know I would be sorely enraged if I had the ability to get those upper level upgrades but couldn't because they would be to OP for the weaker dungeons. It's hard to reach, but it's there for the people willing to take the risk. Can you understand where I'm going with this?

Last edited by Ruzu; 11-13-2012 at 10:52 PM..
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  #627  
Old 11-14-2012, 01:32 AM
wyzau wyzau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflin View Post
The gold amount doesn't carry over. There are just different base amounts for each dungeon. You get one gold per coin in the first dungeon, two in the second, three in the third... Etc.

So none of the merchant abilities carry over.
ah! great, thanks
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  #628  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:59 AM
eflin eflin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruzu View Post
@ eflin and Syen

Judging from what you guys are trying to say, maybe I really should start using the items? Syens comment about being able to dominate the harder dungeons leaves me confused. No matter how much I raise my stats, the difficulty always feels the same per dungeon no matter what. I don't feel any stronger the higher I level, in fact, the fight feels the same whether I'm tackling on the 5th dungeon at level 250, or at 350. Nothing appears to be different except the monster's damage seems to scale at the same rate as my damage.

The only issue I have with the items is that I DID try to use the shield at one point, but I didn't notice any difference. It seemed like a waste of energy because I still died at the same rate compared to if I didn't use it.
Shield is garbage unless your are a knight in which case it's decent. It just doesn't last long enough to matter without the additional turns from the knight classes ability.

That said... if you want to give it a small but good buff Syen, then I'd make it so you can activate it AND do something on the same turn (so you dont activate it.. get attacked by monster... THEN do something). This would make it better without being OP and at the same time make it last one more effective turn (it's lasting the same number of turns but you're getting one more action while its active).

To address the other items Ruzu, yes you really should be using them. They are excellent and significantly lengthen my runs. I think I've said it a few times but I'd suggest flute, potion, and bomb. Early game use flute every time you get 3 energy bars to quickly get merchant upgrades. Mid game your energy will just sit there waiting for a tough special (so if I see reflect damage... hello... meet my flute) or if you somehow get jammed and need to use the potion. I also occasionally use bomb to clear the board and get a new set of tiles (while destroying the enemy)

Late game I am constantly using all 3 depending on the situation. In fact the abilities are so good I've started taking adrenaline up to level 3 as quickly as possible (early game it helps me fill up the flute faster which equals faster upgrades... late game I want as much energy as possible). Basically if I have 2 energy bars... no enemy can kill me. It takes 2 tough ones back to back. Otherwise the hard one meets my flute (or bomb if I can chip it down a little).

I am currently farming the third dungeon but every game is feeling easier and easier so I'm definitely making progress. My last game yesterday took 1.5 hours... I generated 25,000 gold... and made it very deep into the 3rd dungeon. I'm only level 260 as well. I died from a small goof on my part (as in I really shouldn't have died if I was paying attention) but to give you an idea of how deep I was... the enemies had been legitimately hitting me for more than 1/4 of my max life for a while at that point but I was fine due to my items and the merchant abilities (had regen, curse, and gold at level 5... that seems to be the cutting off point for me in level 3 currently. I likely can go to 6 now though based on the results of that latest run).

So yeah give the items some serious consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruzu View Post
I feel as though the merchant shouldn't be removed... it is still a core part of the game. Maybe only reveal it after the player collects a certain amount of gold/level/stats? Like when it actually becomes useful? As for capping it, that idea doesn't sit well with me. You shouldn't be locked out of the stronger content simply because it would be to OP then. The higher level investments cost a lot, so it's your decision and luxury whether you want to invest. I know I would be sorely enraged if I had the ability to get those upper level upgrades but couldn't because they would be to OP for the weaker dungeons. It's hard to reach, but it's there for the people willing to take the risk. Can you understand where I'm going with this?
I see your point but I myself don't think it's a big deal for the merchant to be capped in the earlier dungeons. In fact I think it's very similar to the system you proposed (where the merchant abilities are better in later dungeons). What's the net difference really? On your system you can buy 15 levels of abilities in all dungeons but they are not equal. So you are in effect capping the early dungeons but doing it by lowering the effectiveness of the abilities in them. So someone on the first dungeon is going to have to spend more money to get worse abilities than they'd get in the later dungeon. I also think it will confuse people that the abilities get better between dungeons since the name and level of the abilities will read the same. It feels like you are buying the same thing but you'll be getting different results.

The system of keeping the abilities and costs the same across dungeons should be more consistent for players (i.e. less confusing) and will slowly break them into the merchant. To me it's similar to how in RPGs you can't buy the best equipment in the first dungeons. Each town you get to in the game has progressively better and better stuff. In this game though you instead are able to buy higher and higher levels of the same item (since as I said they have the same name etc).

To help clarify this I'd put out of stock when someone hits the cap in the early dungeons rather than max level. You could even grey out the icon and put a red X over it or something...

Just my two cents.
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  #629  
Old 11-14-2012, 08:43 AM
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Syen Syen is offline
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Very nice suggestions guys! This is the reason also it takes me a while to decide exactly how to balance the merchant as i want it to feel right and not take some quick decision, but i think we have reached a very nice point. Btw i like the stock out idea and i am still undecided if i should just disable the merchant at least only for the 1st dungeon (that is over very fast anyway and its supposed to be a training ground, i doubt anyone really goes back after he opens 2nd and 3rd)

Indeed items are really powerful (although some seriously need some buffing) and they need to be taken more seriously if you want to survive longer! That said i liked the idea of using an item and being able to act again. But if i do that it will probably happen for a selection of items only, and only for single player. Eg potion, bomb and flute are fine, but the buff items could let you act as soon as you use them (this could actually make then really more useful)!

Btw the upcoming update will make things harder in deep dungeons becase of the new enrage mechanism and how monsters scale even more every 50 turns but it shouldnt be too noticable. Just keep that in mind. There is a chance the following patch will have new graphics + the merchant/item/equipment balancing and could take a week or 2 to deliver i guess. The game is definitely feeling much better now but the extra balance will help things realy a lot!
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  #630  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:03 AM
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Syen Syen is offline
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Just letting you know 1.3.2 just got in review, so there is a good chance the update will be out in a few hours!

On other news, I just got the first batch of 2.0 graphics and they look totally awesome, so I will try to have a preview as soon as possible
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