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  #81  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:34 AM
psj3809 psj3809 is online now
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But i must admit i keep my feet on the ground regarding amazing rookies.

Being old (!) i remember Rick Mirer from Seattle, rookie of the year, went all the way downhill.

Cam Newton was stunning his rookie year, now due to his 'attitude' and the way hes been (acting a prima donna at the pro bowl etc) people arent talking about him anymore.

RGIII, it'll be a huge shame if hes not the same player when he comes back, these operations are obviously bad. Even when he comes back players will be looking for a hit to take him out of the game.

I'm not a Denver fan at all but seeing someone like Peyton in the playoffs is great, its like the 80's and appreciating Marino/Montana games.

At the end of the day John Fox took you guys to the Superbowl which were you were very unlucky not to win. Hes not your worst ever coach, George Siefert ? See this is where fans go OTT.

I wish i had a coach who took me to the playoffs and a SB appearance ! You try having 8 constant losing seasons as a Raiders fan. Then i hear a rival fan moan about a coach being so bad (Who took them to the superbowl !). You dont know how lucky you are !

But its interesting seeing the careers of players. Over the years specially with NFL preview mags they gush over so many players, you look back 5 years to any NFL mag and see the way they rave about a young player who then turns out to be rubbish.

Matt Leinart gets drafted, has a few good rookie games for the Cards, everyone raves about him, look at him now, 3rd NFL team and a total bust.
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  #82  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:20 AM
k1lljoy_89 k1lljoy_89 is offline
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Well here's how I see it.

Top 5 rookie Quarterbacks at the moment:

1. Wilson
2. Kaepernick
3. Newton (very, very, questionable first place but first half of season was rough, and even though its the teams and coaches fault as much and more than his, his success forces him here)
4. RG3
5. Luck

Those Top 5 Quarterbacks given time:

1. Cam
2. Wilson
3. Kaepernick
4. Luck
5. RG3 (he's last cuz he won't be good, he'll be dead)

Quote:
Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post

Cam Newton was stunning his rookie year, now due to his 'attitude' and the way hes been (acting a prima donna at the pro bowl etc) people arent talking about him anymore.
Two errors in your logic there.

1. His attitude is not why he's not talked about

2. He is talked about.

In fact, he's talked about as much as anyone. But my problem is, it's all negative. His celebrating, everything he does, justified or not, is criticized without hesitation. That's why I don't like rg3 or luck. Everyone wants them to succeed, while they're pulling for Cam to screw it all up.

Yeah, he's had his monents with attitude. Slumping on the sidelines etc.

But here's something I notice. Aaron Rodgers was losing yesterday, and he was poutin on the bench the whole second half. Eventually he got pretty pissed, and you could see it in the ball he threw.
That's completely justified, but you won't hear anything about it.

Wilson did the same.

Kaepernick spiked the ball on an opponent, and did a really arrogant TD celebration, reminded me of Cam's superman, and despite the penalty he got doing it, you wont hear anything about It.

J.J. Watt went to the center of Gillette stadium and spit on the logo. Won't hear anything.

Only time this season you DIDN'T hear anything about Cam was when he had a really good game. Both times.

I could justify every little pouting face cam makes because of idiot coaching system that cam obviously didnt agree with, for good reason. Look at the last 5 games of the season, when they actually ran a pro offense. Cam was happy, cam was the #1 QB in league, and they won 4 out of 5 of those games, same as last year. Too little too late, both times and that's why im happy stubborn ass Chudznksi is gone.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
RGIII, it'll be a huge shame if hes not the same player when he comes back, these operations are obviously bad. Even when he comes back players will be looking for a hit to take him out of the game.
He isn't built for the offense they had him running. Cant treat him like Cam and Kap, too small and "frail". He's gotta be more like Wilson or you're right, the Saints will look for a hit take him out of the game.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
I'm not a Denver fan at all but seeing someone like Peyton in the playoffs is great, its like the 80's and appreciating Marino/Montana games.
Would have been greater had his coach not pissed away the victory on the nearest tree.

I wasn't around for the 80's but yes. Agreed. Lol

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
At the end of the day John Fox took you guys to the Superbowl which were you were very unlucky not to win. Hes not your worst ever coach, George Siefert ? See this is where fans go OTT.
No. He's not. I'm nothing but grateful for his early years coaching Carolina. But that's one Super Bowl. Out of many playoffs and division championships that should have been won, but weren't, because we were playing foxball. He and Delhomme lost their fuel years before we fired him. I personally wish we fired him sooner and got one of the many available coaching candidates.

Yeah we went to the Super Bowl in 2003. But that's not an excuse anymore, it's 2013. Not good enough.

Now we're stuck with Rivera.

Damnit now I'm depressed again.

At least Chudzinksi, the real problem, is gone. I pity the Browns, having Chud as a head coach.. You all better be glad Norv Turner is your OC, or you'd never win again (not that they ever won)

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I wish i had a coach who took me to the playoffs and a SB appearance ! You try having 8 constant losing seasons as a Raiders fan. Then i hear a rival fan moan about a coach being so bad (Who took them to the superbowl !). You dont know how lucky you are !
I do know how lucky I was. Like I said, those were good times, nothing but grateful. That doesn't change the games he cost us afterwards though. It was always a love hate relationship with Fox. He'd do us good, but then he'd piss away the most important of games.

That Super Bowl was 2003. I'm glad that's in our history. But that's all it is right now. History. He failed in the later seasons, and now Rivera is following in his footsteps. Although he doesn't have any playoffs to piss away.

I really don't take it for granted like you think. I know what it's like to lose as well. Delhommes final few seasons, then Moore, then freaking Jimmy Clausen fighting for that epic 2 season wins.. Now we've got Cam, who's talen is wasted so we still go 6-10 and 7-9

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
But its interesting seeing the careers of players. Over the years specially with NFL preview mags they gush over so many players, you look back 5 years to any NFL mag and see the way they rave about a young player who then turns out to be rubbish.
Media don't know s***. Take everything they say in critique, and expect the opposite. They'll take any backstory, and stat, any facial appearance, skim color, and make the player into a story, whether he's deserving of it or not.

Luck, for two years, was expected to be the greatest draft out there.

Panthers were going to draft him. But then, he went back to school (didn't wanna play for Rivera. Smart choice...). I did the happy dance for weeks straight until Cam was drafted.

Then, when he was, I did it for another week.

I didn't want freakin Andrew luck.

Cam, who the same people riding Lucks back, said Cam couldn't play in NFL. All the hate, same as now. I'm like fug that, the guy ran a simple, spread offense. He'll learn.

And then, he didn't. Because they didn't allow him to. They put him in a bullshit spread offense, running the read option on 3rd and 7...

And y'all wonder why Cam didn't buy into the program.

I'm so so so so so so so Happy that Chud is gone. Im so happy gettlemen was hired (GM)

Now Cam can develop. Except Rivera will piss it all away and Cam will be on another team, but still.

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Matt Leinart gets drafted, has a few good rookie games for the Cards, everyone raves about him, look at him now, 3rd NFL team and a total bust.
Good example.

I used Luck as the new example because I think he'll be the next Leinart, and the next Romo.

Russel is another good example. No one wanted him. For three years.. Now look at him.



Wow that was a long post
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  #83  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:42 AM
psj3809 psj3809 is online now
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Thats all very good and you raise some good points.

BUT if Cam Newton played for the Falcons you would be the complete opposite, talk about fickle ! I'm sure you would say how bad Cam is and its not just the media, how you would say hes overated. How hes never taken a team to the playoffs yet etc etc.

Dont get me wrong I think Newton is very good, until this year he had one of the greatest rookie seasons ever. But after a slow start this year (granted they finished strong) hes getting 'forgotton' as in all the hype/news due to this years rookies and Kap.

Again if Newton was drafted by the Saints/Falcons etc you would be totally the opposite !

Every fan out there praises their young players, they see a rookie catch one pass in preseason and rave on about their potential. They see a 3rd string QB throw for two late td's against a 3rd string defense in preseason and rave about how much potential they have.

They lose a star player in free agency and hate them, they however gain a star player from another team and then love them !

Sure Vikes fans hated Favre, the second he joined them and had an all pro year and one game away from the Superbowl they loved him, one year later, hated him.

When i was an NFL fan in my teenage years i hated rival teams/players. Now i get to appreciate other teams and players. Being a Raiders fan i should hate Denver, i dont want them to win but i'm kinda glad in a weird way Peyton Manning had a brilliant year as hes an NFL star, 5 months ago people were saying his career was over, look how good hes done now.

I remember how biased Falcons fans were towards their dog killing QB Vick, they didnt care as long as he threw td's, shameful.

So your love for your QB is well and good but to a non-Panthers fan like myself it looks very very biased !!

I've seen it many years with Raider fans. Always crying for the backup, Billy Joe Hobert/Marinovich/Gradkowski/Hollas come in, do well in their first appearance or two, 2 games later when they show had bad they are the fans turn. Armchair coaches who play Madden a few years and think they know it all !

Newtons a very good QB, needs to get to the playoffs soon or i think he'll start to get more forgotton. I would love a 3rd year QB like you have who is a talent, but again as youre a Panthers fan you do seem a 'bit' biased to say the least

We need this chat in 10 years time ! We'll see how he does then.
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  #84  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:46 AM
crunc crunc is offline
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The Ravens beat the Patriots in the regular season, so I don't think it's so certain that the Ravens will lose. Of course I'm a Ravens fan so that is coloring my opinion. But still, they beat them in the regular season. That has to count for something.
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  #85  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:13 AM
k1lljoy_89 k1lljoy_89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Thats all very good and you raise some good points.

BUT if Cam Newton played for the Falcons you would be the complete opposite, talk about fickle ! I'm sure you would say how bad Cam is and its not just the media, how you would say hes overated. How hes never taken a team to the playoffs yet etc etc.
I don't think so. I would likely hate Cam, and be less defensive towards him, but remember I watched him a year, every Auburn game for their entire season. I was a Cam fan long before he happened to be drafted by my team.

I hate no one more than Matt Ryan. But I won't say he sucks. I might be quicker to point out his flaws, but he's a good QB. Won't deny it.

I mean hell, here's an example. I love Tony G.

I hate the redskins but loved Rg3.. if it weren't for the Cam vs Rg3 media, I still would.

Drew Brees is close to being hated by me, but for a few years of hating the saints, I stilled liked him a lot.

I guess it's easier to like rg3 when I have Cam, so.. You're partly right, but it wouldn't change everything.



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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Dont get me wrong I think Newton is very good, until this year he had one of the greatest rookie seasons ever. But after a slow start this year (granted they finished strong) hes getting 'forgotton' as in all the hype/news due to this years rookies and Kap.
He's no forgotten. Again, he gets more media appearances then anyone in regular season. Of course he's not talked about during playoffs, as he's not in them.. But Kap, and RG3 were still being compared to Cam, who i think is actually finally being put in a class of his own, as he should compared to these rookies.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Again if Newton was drafted by the Saints/Falcons etc you would be totally the opposite !
Not entirely. I wouldn't like him, but if I ever took the time to analyze, I wouldn't write hIm off like you think.

But who knows.. I mean, I've spent 2 years analyzing every play by Cam. I'm not just biased, I know him quite well.

Obviously I wouldn't if he wasn't a panther, but still, it's not just me being biased.

For instance, I HAAATE the redskins. My cousins are huge fans and I've hated them for years, I don't even know why. I hate them, but I don't let it cloud my judgement of RG3.

Yeah, Cams better than rg3, but in certain throwing departments, rg3 is better. I don't think I would think differently if Cam was a skin, and rg3 a panther. Especially considering Cam would be in the playoffs behind Shanahan, and rg3 would be 4-12

Not a huge Seahawks fan cuz of the coach, but as I said, Wilson is probably the best rookie of the year. He's a lot more matured than Cam, and a lot smarter as a QB. (He also had 4 years of college as opposed to Cams 1, but whatever)

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Every fan out there praises their young players, they see a rookie catch one pass in preseason and rave on about their potential. They see a 3rd string QB throw for two late td's against a 3rd string defense in preseason and rave about how much potential they have.
Cam and Keuchly will be two of the best players in the league.

That's not biased. It's just true. My defensive nature, and love for the players is, but my saying they're great isn't necessarily.

Kuechly should have and DROY. Not because he's a panther, but because he led the league in tackles, and didnt even play in the first 5 games of the season.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
I remember how biased Falcons fans were towards their dog killing QB Vick, they didnt care as long as he threw td's, shameful.
Falcons fans are asshats anyway, just like saints fans. Only falcons fans would side with Vick, and only saints fans would cheer after injuries inflicted by their team, after being accused of bounty.

I don't just hate those teams cuz they're panthers rivals. In fact, I LOVED the saints a few years ago.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
So your love for your QB is well and good but to a non-Panthers fan like myself it looks very very biased !!
Understood. And yes, I'm biased. But I do know cam as well as anyone save the coaches and team. I know his flaws, his talents, and his potential. So when I say he's better or worse than Kap, or better or worse than Wilson it's not ONLY my bias talking.

Wilson and Kap are better players this year.

However, they have much better teams and coaches.

That's fact. Nothing more.

Here's another: Cam will become more then will.

That's just an observation. I biased one, but an honest one.

I can say right now, that Sam Bradford is better, despite his stats, than Andy Dalton (playoffs).

I can say that RG3 will not have the career that Wilson will.

Kap will not be the golden shiznit it seems. He's simply not as good as he seems yet.

Brady and Rodgers are better than Peyton, but Peyton is a better football mind.

Etc.


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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
I've seen it many years with Raider fans. Always crying for the backup, Billy Joe Hobert/Marinovich/Gradkowski/Hollas come in, do well in their first appearance or two, 2 games later when they show had bad they are the fans turn. Armchair coaches who play Madden a few years and think they know it all !

Newtons a very good QB, needs to get to the playoffs soon or i think he'll start to get more forgotton. I would love a 3rd year QB like you have who is a talent, but again as youre a Panthers fan you do seem a 'bit' biased to say the least
I do. But that doesn't change anything I said in the last three posts from being true. Most of it at least.

But yes I'm very biased.

Very. Very biased.

I think my point is, every fan is biased. But every fan also knows their QB better than anyone. I'm biased to cam, but I also know him quite well, and cam say these things honestly from an observant point, because I'm a panthers fan, and I do know my QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
We need this chat in 10 years time ! We'll see how he does then.
We will.

And Panthers or not, I'll always be a Cam Newton fan.

Last edited by k1lljoy_89; 01-14-2013 at 10:21 AM..
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  #86  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:31 AM
psj3809 psj3809 is online now
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See thats the problem, you admit you're biased so its difficult to take what you say seriously about Newton. Its similar to some young girl who thinks her boyband is the best band ever, whatever they release is the best song ever, they're the best singers, they can do no wrong !

Unless you are his brother or related i cant see how you know him better than anyone apart from his coach etc !

The problem is every biased fan in the NFL thinks their QB is the best. Also nowadays you can see all the preseason games, training camp, you start to pretend to 'think' like a coach as you see so much more.

I look back to some past great QB's and for whatever reason (Take Dan Marino, no good rushing attack for years, had a bad defense earlier in his career) and its a shame he didnt have more talent around him. John Elway took some very weak teams to the Superbowl, finally won two once he had a great defense/rushing attack.

To be fair to Brady he doesnt have a 'big name' running back, most of his career he didnt, even Corey Dillon was near the end of his career but did well at NE. But Brady gets it done.

'Some' players take their team to the next level, RGIII got on that great winning streak this year but did have a great running back (The Skins didnt the year before).

Newton however the other year had a great rushing attack, when you have two RB's who gain over 700 yards each (And the QB does) you 'should' do far better than the 6-10 record he had last year.

Looking at Newtons stats he has done well, and hell, hes a 23 year old young QB coming off a near 4000 yard season with 19 td's. Not bad stats at all. BUT for the top overall pick, specially now with young QB's doing so well, i feel year 3 is a huge year for him. He'll have a new coach, if Newton doesnt improve this year and get to the playoffs there'll be some big question marks around him.

Hes a very good QB but at the end of the day the fans want wins not excuses. I would say Newton has to get to the playoffs in 2013 or there might be major problems.
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  #87  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:47 AM
k1lljoy_89 k1lljoy_89 is offline
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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
See thats the problem, you admit you're biased so its difficult to take what you say seriously about Newton. Its similar to some young girl who thinks her boyband is the best band ever, whatever they release is the best song ever, they're the best singers, they can do no wrong !
My point is, I'm biased, like every fan, but I also know him extremely well, not the person, but the player, amd im able to say these things honestly, so whether I like him or not, i can say he's good at this or that and not be biased.

No one called my biased when I said ALL these same things about him when he was in Auburn.

And he does do wrong. I could write a book on his flaws. Ive gone on rants just like this about how bad he is in some departments after losses.

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Unless you are his brother or related i cant see how you know him better than anyone apart from his coach etc !
I don't. But I know where his skills and flaws are extremely well. I know where he needs to improve etc. so I can honestly say, this guy will be the best of the last two years of QB drafts.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
To be fair to Brady he doesnt have a 'big name' running back, most of his career he didnt, even Corey Dillon was near the end of his career but did well at NE. But Brady gets it done.
Did you watch last nights game? They rushed like a mofo. They have meh backs, but make it work because of a good system ad smart coaching.

To say that the panthers don't have that is not biased. It's fact.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
'Some' players take their team to the next level, RGIII got on that great winning streak this year but did have a great running back (The Skins didnt the year before).
He also had Shanahan and a much, much, much better system

You can't fully understand how bad the coaching and play calling was this year for the panthers. You just can't.

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Newton however the other year had a great rushing attack, when you have two RB's who gain over 700 yards each (And the QB does) you 'should' do far better than the 6-10 record he had last year.
HE was the running back. Everything was on him cuz Chud's a idiot.

Newtons got such a kick ass backfield but they never got a single yard until week 11, and even then it was bad

Might as well have had jimmy Clausen back there, because it wouldn't make a difference, they weren't used!!

AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE GOD DAMN OFFENSIVE LINES. Look at every decent or good QB. Look at Kap. Look at rg3. badass lines make them great

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Looking at Newtons stats he has done well, and hell, hes a 23 year old young QB coming off a near 4000 yard season with 19 td's. Not bad stats at all. BUT for the top overall pick, specially now with young QB's doing so well, i feel year 3 is a huge year for him. He'll have a new coach, if Newton doesnt improve this year and get to the playoffs there'll be some big question marks around him.
Pay attention next year to what's actually Cam and what's the Panthers. There's a difference. With Rivera behind the wheel, cam doesn't have as much control over playoffs as you think.


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He'll have a new coach
No he won't.

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Originally Posted by psj3809 View Post
Hes a very good QB but at the end of the day the fans want wins not excuses. I would say Newton has to get to the playoffs in 2013 or there might be major problems.

There's already major problems. Cam will not be a panther in 2 years if Rivera is still the head coach. Period.

Rivera fired = Wins.

Rivera not fired = no wins and no Cam.


Last edited by k1lljoy_89; 01-14-2013 at 11:47 AM..
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  #88  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:36 AM
Allanon Allanon is offline
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Lmao who in their right mind puts Wilson above Kaepernick...
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  #89  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:47 AM
k1lljoy_89 k1lljoy_89 is offline
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Lmao who in their right mind puts Wilson above Kaepernick...
Someone who knows football. I love Kap, and if I had the choice between the two I'd pick Kap. But Wilson as a QB is just better. Smarter. For now at least.

That will likely change but for now Wilson is a more solid player as a QB. Not as a football player but as a QB

But we'll see. Kap has more to prove I think. The next game will help that lol

It's actually a really tough choice, and it's impossible to really tell.

Last edited by k1lljoy_89; 01-14-2013 at 11:53 AM..
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  #90  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:54 AM
Allanon Allanon is offline
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And there's only one opinion for people who "know football" lol

For u Wilson is better, for me Kap is. It's not objective truth and that's what many people fail to realize when comparing players and teams.

Stats don't even equate to objective truth.

Look at the Giants last year, going into the playoffs, objectively most people wouldn't think they'd make it out the first round. There isn't a measure for the underdog mentality.
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