Need Developers' Advice Plz (New Game or Updates?)

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by ImStrapped, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    Hello everyone,

    My name is Peter and I am the producer of a recently launched new game called DEO (as some of you may already have seen/heard of).

    The game was released this past Thur with what I'd consider, great success. We've gotten covered from smallest blogs to some of the largest ones out there including TA - dozens and dozens of posts. Apple also picked us up and featured DEO on the release date (still being featured). We've hit top 100 all games, top 25 under Adventure and top 25 under Strategy in just over a day. Anyway, with that being said, I have one major concern.

    First of all, we are very thankful for everyone that supported us and still does and we are very grateful for the success we've had so far! More than we could have ever expected!

    Here's my question though: Do we focus on our next game and make it even better than DEO (using principles we've learned while developing DEO) or do we focus on DEO updates and make DEO much better than what it is now?

    While it may seem like a no brainer to pursue DEO, I'm a little concerned that our current success is all due to a sudden wave of exposure and when it goes away, it all goes away.

    I would love to hear from you guys, if you've had any kind of experience in this area.

    Thank you
     
  2. Pixelized

    Pixelized Active Member

    May 26, 2011
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    Congratulations on the success of DEO! I don't have any experience in the area, however I can offer some advice, more the less my opinion. Your concern that DEO will only stay popular for so long is a valid one. In my opinion, thats probably where it's heading. It's going to eventually die down, sure a update would help. I don't see a point though, unless you really enjoy working on DEO and would love to expand on it, then I'd do so. I think that from your point of veiw, it would be better to start developing a new game.
     
  3. Photics

    Photics Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2010
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    Why choose? It looks like you should be doing both! :cool:

    http://www.appannie.com/452167352/ranking/history/

    DEO is ranking well. I think that at least in the short-term, it makes sense to update your game. The game is brand new. Why abandon it now?

    Typically, the ranking starts to drop. That's when a new project is needed. It's very tough to revive an app once it starts to fall. You can already see the start of a downward trend happening with DEO, but I think that's irrelevant right now. Something like DEO can help build a brand. So if lots of people know that you're going to support your current game library, then that might make them more likely to be interested in your apps in the future.

    I think a good example is Doodle Jump...
    http://appshopper.com/games/doodle-jump

    Even though that game is over two years old, it has been updated dozens of times.
     
  4. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    It would be extremely hard for us to pull it off. I'm talking about doing both at the same time. Lack of resources. I wonder at what point did Doodle Jump decide to release an update though. Was it after seeing a constant, sustained ranking after several weeks of release?
     
  5. Pixelized

    Pixelized Active Member

    May 26, 2011
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    http://www.appannie.com/doodle-jump-be-warned-insanely-addictive/ranking/history/#start_date=2011-07-23&end_date=2011-08-21

    The past 30 days for doodle jump have been very stable, they keep there position in the top 20. I can't get you there all-time rankings, but since there really stable I can assume that they had a steady start and were keeping there position, thats why LimaSky ran with the idea to secure their spot. If you can turn DEO into this, then do so. I don't think you have much of a chance however, unless you can get DEO higher in the rankings, if not I'd make a new game.
     
  6. racingspider

    racingspider Well-Known Member

    First, support your new game. That way players know you're serious about what you create. Fix bugs, inconsistencies and expand it a little. Don't abandon it right away. Find out what your users are clamoring for and give that to them.

    Your game is gorgeous. Add some levels and think about game center scoring. Strike while the iron is hot and you should be able to keep it going for a bit longer.

    Once it starts to dive (a REAL dive, you'll know it when you see it), start the next project, but every now and then, throw an update to it.
     
  7. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    This is a tough call. For RoboHero we have a series of planned major updates for the game. Partly to get the game out sooner rather than later, and partly to keep the game on people's radars for longer.

    Small updates don't get much press, but major updates do, especially with the sites that have covered you before. So you could maximize your press exposure and sales for this game by releasing a major update every couple months, and emailing the sites that have covered you already to show them the new features.

    This is our plan.Updates are much easier to do than new games. In the meantime the rest of our team will be working on fully designing the next game on paper and getting the graphical assets lined up.

    The fact is though that most all iOS apps have pretty short life cycles, so unless one attains hall of fame status, eventually sales will drop. You might want to think long term about ways you could turn DEO F2P once that happens to get the most life out of your game.
     
  8. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    I understand your argument, thank you! I think at this point its a bit too early to make such a call though. It took Angry Birds several months and several updates to even get noticed. So why there's a lot of truth in what you are saying, there are of course exceptions (not that we are one).

    Thank you! Brand name is very important to us and I see it the same way. Best way to prove that you care about what you do is continue improving it. However, I must also agree with BravadoWaffle on this as well (please read below).

    That's exactly what I was thinking. A small update where we add GameCenter and fix minor bugs (which we haven't had any reported yet anyway) won't get us much exposure unless we're Angry Birds. It certainly would give us the boost we'd hope for to revive the numbers. So, that leave is with either a major update or a new game. And by major update I mean, rethink the main menu screen a bit (some ppl are confused by the rewards and navigation system), improve current levels (add more excitement and reduce repetition in levels), add new levels, etc. An update like that will probably take 2 months, roughly the same amount of time it'll take us to get our 3 game into beta stage.

    Ideal thing to do would be of course what you're doing - both. Not sure if we can pull that off at the moment though :(

    Thanks everyone for great input. Please continue!!!
     
  9. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    I would love to see you explore the world building part of DEO a little more. I think that building your own little world is such a cool idea, a possible cool update could be some kind of achievement system where if you manage to achieve certain tasks (i.e. beat such and such level in 3 jumps), you get to have some wildlife on your world that will run around, or a special flower or something.

    I don't think you've fully explored the world building aspect as much as you could. Might make for a cool newsworthy update! :D

    For the record though, I'm biased. I seriously love DEO, and personally want to see lots of updates.
     
  10. First, congrats on your success!

    We're in a similar boat with Cavorite. It peaked lower (around 50th adventure) but had a nice string of major reviews. I pushed out one small update, to fix a few tiny bugs, but haven't done a big content update. We had a solid 7 week run and then hit a wall last week -- sales dipped into that slow drip that many folks eventually experience with an app.

    We've had some debate among ourselves about what to do next. In the short term, it was obvious that a Mac port was an easy "win" and that's what I'm working on. But we haven't settled on a long-term strategy. iPad? Retina? Big content addition? Etc.

    I've made some of the same points you have as well -- a big content update is almost on par with a new (albeit smaller) game. And while Cavorite has netted us our fastest launch and best income, it hasn't been the highest profit or most downloaded. Those honors still go to Zombie Karts, which was just a crazy 4 week project to prove that real games could be made with the TGB Kart Kit! So I have literally debated with myself if I should do a Zombie Karts 2 (or something like that) or a Cavorite update. (I'm sure fans of the latter are gasping in horror.)

    Anyway, mostly just commiserating, but sometimes that's useful for indies to do. :)
     
  11. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    Haha, thank you! Yeah at the moment we have 5 stages of crust. The better you perform the more plants will grow but I agree, there are more possibilities with the concept. We'll look into that as well. We're definitely hoping to bring new levels, achievements, power meter, etc in the next update. Perhaps even redesign the main menu a bit to avoid confusion.

    I hear ya! I think if we go with an update it'll be a major one to address concerns, bugs and of course bring new levels and achievements in. I'm not sure porting to Mac would be our choice though, just doesn't seem like a "casual gamer's platform."
     
  12. Photics

    Photics Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2010
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    Maybe you're thinking too big. I still update my textbook. I don't make it too major. I just fix some mistakes that I catch, try to update it with current information and add some new features if I can. I think that people really like that. It's the same with games.

    With Deo, I think there was a complaint about the difficulty... such as jumps that can't be seen. Is it really that hard to fix that?

    I think an excellent example is CityVille. A simple change... like switching from click to mouse over to collect coins... can make players very happy. That takes like 30 seconds to implement. I haven't played DEO, but maybe there are changes like that in your game... simple changes.

    Maybe you're thinking too large. All of the top apps usually have regular updates. It's not major but it's nice... like some new achievements in Fruit Ninja or a few new levels in Cut the Rope.

    Heh... now I feel like updating my apps.

    The page lists all of the update since launch. It looks like updating Doodle Jump was a regular part of the game's history. I'm surprised that this is even a question for DEO.
     
  13. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    I just don't want to mess around with a tiny update, I have to think not only for the users that are playing it but for the company, my team, and longer term goals. Which is why (at least in this case) I believe we're better off either with a full on update (new levels, achievements, improved menus, bug fixes, power meter, etc) rather than a small one. We've learned a lot from DEO and we've also seen what ppl like and don't like about it. So, we're going to give them more of what they like and rethink what they didn't like :)

    If all is well, major update is on its way :D
     
  14. Cool. We've actually decided to do the same -- ie a big, big content addition to Cavorite... in parallel with a small kart racing experiment project. :)
     
  15. Photics

    Photics Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2010
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    That doesn't make sense. Isn't a tiny improvement better for players than no improvement at all? I'm not sure what you're using for development, but it shouldn't be a lot of work to add Game Center features. Apple already did most of the heavy lifting. Just adding some achievements could be a significant improvement.

    There's a separate category on iTunes for Game Center games. That could mean additional sales.

    The debate doesn't seem to matter now, as it looks like you're going to update DEO. That's good. Maybe you were tired and stressed out with the launch, but I think it would have been a bad decision to abandon DEO. The game is successful. To abandon it too soon might be like throwing money away. You're not just building games, you're building a brand. I think your quick and thoughtful responses to your customers are good... something that could actually make your next project more successful.
     
  16. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    Yeah makes sense!

    I meant, in the sense of I don't want a small update because I feel like there's a lot I can improve so rather than releasing 4 updates, I'll release 1 that addresses them all.

    Then once I feel like the game is more complete (with this next update), quicker and smaller updates will definitely be the way to go from that point on.

    And I totally agree with you, it's more than just games, it's a brand, it's your customers, it's loyalty.

    Launch week was a bit stressful, we had a spike and then it dropped a bit but the fact that we had such a spike perhaps means that with some adjustments and enhancements the game has a real shot!
     
  17. steelfires

    steelfires Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2010
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    Candy Mountain, Charlie!
    I'd say updates. While you may have succeeded with this game, can you do the same thing for every game? And also, the absolute #1 biggest thing in App Store gaming is exposure. To get exposure, you need a website like TA to review it. For a website like TA to review it, you need "fame".

    When I talk about "fame", I mean that your company needs to have a good brand name. When I click on threads, I click on games that either have a high page count, or games made by a developer I know and like.

    Now for some examples of games that succeeded with updates. My all time favorite iPhone game, JCS. They released the original game, then a while later, released a lite version (which was one of the best I had ever seen. By adding 7 or so entirely new levels, they encouraged existing game owners, who probably already liked the game, to download the lite version.) Then, a while later, after sales had died down, they released a DLC of about 26 levels. This once again, catapulted them upwards in the rankings. Now, though, they're working on JCS2.

    Doodle Jump, Pocket God, and Angry Birds all succeeded through constant updates. By starting with an original formula that was successful, and then constantly adding to it, they've created a game(and a brand), where you know you will constantly receive new content. And as anybody knows, in games, once you run out of content, you stop.


    TL: DR I suggest updating.
     
  18. steelfires

    steelfires Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2010
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    Candy Mountain, Charlie!
    Also, sorry for double post, but I think the best way of making it more interesting is by introducing new mechanics. The main problem in your game, I think, is the lack of new mechanics. Even something as simple as upgrades would make the game a lot better. This game http://www.kongregate.com/games/CuriousGaming/wish-upon-a-star?acomplete=i+wish, had a simple concept, but with the addition of a very simple upgrade system, became so much better. (I'm not sure if linking to places outside TA is allowed, so feel free to delete the link)

    An example of a game that takes a simple concept and introduces new mechanics is Angry Bird. You start with one kind of bird. That's the basic concept. Throw it at different structures, at the right place, and you'll win. That by itself is a solid game, and similar to many other shoddy games. However, by adding different mechanics, for ex: a bird that speeds up, a bird that splits, and mixing them up, it took the game to the top of the leaderboards.

    TL: DR, Add more new mechanics.
    PS: After looking at some reviews of your game, that's most reviewer's main problem as well.
     
  19. ImStrapped

    ImStrapped Well-Known Member

    Mar 1, 2011
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    Thank you for the advice! We'll be working on an update! And I agree, there's a sense of repetition after a while and we're discussing it right now and how to overcome it. We're looking at different achievements, perhaps mechanics (as you mentioned) and power ups. Also, we'll be adding new planets and this time, we'll make sure they are completely different from each other unlike the first two that have a lot of similar gameplay.

    I think we'll also rethink the main menu a little to avoid confusion.

    What do you think?
     
  20. I have to say there is logic to a big update rather than a bunch of small ones. For Cavorite, I had several big sites say, "Please let us know in advance of any major updates, new games, etc." So I don't think I'd get much coverage if I added 5 levels here and there.

    But let's say there's one update with the content doubled. Now I think you can legitimately write sites and say, "Hey, here's a monstrous content expansion... for free." I think that kind of stuff gets headlines... at least from what I've seen! It seems like if you want to move up the ranks, you need to put as many eggs in one basket as you can rather than spread out the effort. Just my thought. :)
     

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