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  #31  
Old 08-12-2013, 09:13 AM
liteking liteking is offline
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@psj3809: That have been correct until now, but I think in the future when the iOS market get matured, it will eventually be a playground for big / rich / extremely good / lucky guys only.
That's what happened for the PC game market, right?
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  #32  
Old 08-12-2013, 09:35 AM
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PikPok PikPok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liteking View Post
@psj3809: That have been correct until now, but I think in the future when the iOS market get matured, it will eventually be a playground for big / rich / extremely good / lucky guys only.
That's what happened for the PC game market, right?
No.

There is a vibrant and buoyant market for smaller indie studios and independent developers on PC.
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  #33  
Old 08-12-2013, 09:36 AM
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Foursaken_Media Foursaken_Media is offline
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Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
All I really have to offer on this is that those at the top of freemium are making way more than those at the top of premium. This might easier stretch down to the amount of money the likes of us need to exist is what I'm hoping, but it's really just hope.

Our problem is that our game design requires this type of pay model from the beginning. CCG's have always been "freemium" not just before freemium kicked off wide scale, but before even iPhones were a thing. M:TGO for instance. There's no backing away from that so we have to fully commit to it, in the face of all the negative press generally surrounding the term which I do think is misrepresentative.
Yeah sorry, don't mean to be discouraging! Definitely not saying freemium can't be successful, and you're right about CCGs, for sure. Again, best of luck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by liteking View Post
@psj3809: That have been correct until now, but I think in the future when the iOS market get matured, it will eventually be a playground for big / rich / extremely good / lucky guys only.
That's what happened for the PC game market, right?
Actually I think it could be argued that indies are making a resurgence across all platforms, including PC, thanks to digital distribution platforms like Steam, xbox live, etc.
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2013, 11:45 AM
Connector Connector is offline
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I like alot of Indie Games, like recently Whirl the Squirrel, Lums, and Baby Nom Nom are all great inexpensive games on ios.

I'm liking games like this way more than many of those freemium published ones.

I hope Indies have more of a role in the future market.
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  #35  
Old 08-12-2013, 11:45 PM
liteking liteking is offline
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Originally Posted by PikPok View Post
No.

There is a vibrant and buoyant market for smaller indie studios and independent developers on PC.
Quote:
Actually I think it could be argued that indies are making a resurgence across all platforms, including PC, thanks to digital distribution platforms like Steam, xbox live, etc.
Don't get me wrong. I did NOT mean that there will be no place for indie developers.
(Just a side note, I've quit my daytime job in a big company recently to go indie myself)
What I mean is that when the market get more matured and more stable, there will only be some significant players: Big / Rich / Extremely Good / Lucky guys
Big / Rich: Giant companies like EA, Gameloft, Disney, DeNA, GREE, etc.
Extremely Good: TeamMeat (Super Meat Boy), 2Dboy (World of Goo), Zepto lab (Cut the Rope), etc. (PikPok, you're also in this category)
Lucky: something like Gangnam Style

Other so-so indies like the ones who are making a few hundred - a few thousand dollars per month now will likely get much less or nothing in the future if they don't get lucky or advance themselves to the "Extremely good" category
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  #36  
Old 08-13-2013, 01:50 AM
NinthNinja NinthNinja is offline
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For indies the best model is paid. The only reason why most indies fail with paid is that they are releasing sub-standard stuff, a game that is already on the app store, or selling at 99c (you need extreme bulk sales to live off 99c)...

The indies that succeed in the paid model are the ones that go for a specialist game product. Ideally something that most devs would find hard to implement, spend a proper dev cycle to produce something of worth and sell at a reasonable price. So your core potential audience is a 100,000 people and you sell at $3.99... so if you hit that audience you are into profit. If your team is pretty experienced you can more or less get a game made for $100,000 that would actually be worth the selling price.

It's really simple math... To make a good quality game and sell for 99c is a road to failure. The make a poor quality game and sell for 99c is failure as well.

Some lucky devs manage to get lucky with a golden app and make millions on the 99c price but you as devs should not gamble with a business.


For indies the freemium market should be avoided at all costs unless you have $ for PR and Marketing. To get noticed in that space costs lots of cash! To get into this loop of success is:

Marketing/PR drives sales, Profit investment drives Marketing/PR.

The reason is this market can be fixed in your favour will lots of cash... and example is chart boosting - getting a company to make thousands of downloads of your app to get it into good chart positions.


So if you want to be a successful indie you need to pick a specialist market that will have a core audience, spend some real dev time and money to make the best of it's kind, and sell the app so you make a profit from your core audience estimate. A really good example of this model in use is what True Axis have done with Jet Car Stunts and True Skate, with whom I've been involved with in some form or shape in the last 4 years.


There is also room for innovation on the app store - different selling models that no one has even gone down yet. I'm actually quite shocked about this but I'll be keeping that information to myself

Last edited by NinthNinja; 08-13-2013 at 01:58 AM..
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  #37  
Old 08-13-2013, 08:29 AM
whitestatic whitestatic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foursaken_Media View Post
Actually I think it could be argued that indies are making a resurgence across all platforms, including PC, thanks to digital distribution platforms like Steam, xbox live, etc.

Agreed. Digital distribution (just like for other industries) has largely leveled the playing field for developers. Self-publishing before Steam, App Stores, etc, was almost impossible without a third-party publisher/distributer (sound familiar book industry?). Unfortunately, marketing and word of mouth, is easier when you have more resources at your disposal. Those with the biggest bullhorn are going to get their content in front of the most people--regardless of how good or bad that content is. There are certainly exceptions to this, but those exceptions have required a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and luck to get their products to the top.
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  #38  
Old 08-13-2013, 08:55 AM
whitestatic whitestatic is offline
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Originally Posted by NinthNinja View Post
It's really simple math... To make a good quality game and sell for 99c is a road to failure. The make a poor quality game and sell for 99c is failure as well.
Lot of good and interesting points here. I would slightly disagree that the math is simple. I think applying more rigor to the math could alleviate some of the frustration. If you're starting out you really need to understand the time-value of money. How much time do you have and how much is it worth? If you have a full time job and no outside commitments that number is going to be lower than someone with a family to support. This is critical to understand because if you don't have a good sense of what your time is worth, then you'll never know what your break-even point is. If you don't know your break-even point then you don't know when or how your game/product will be successful (in this particular case, success=profit). 99 cents might be the right number to price the game and it might not be. What your time is worth, and how big your market is (how many people play genre X), all contribute to the pricing strategy. Just because the mobile market at large has an appetite for free/low-price games does not mean that that is how the market will remain long term.

I also concur that mobile development requires a bit of a different business model. I think liberal application of lean development works here as well. There's a delicate balance in determining how much of a gaming experience you can deliver and at what cost. At the end of the day, obviously that experience needs to feel complete. But that doesn't mean it must be finished. That's where I see IAP being a great mechanism. Level packs, episodic content, etc are all ways to extend the life of the game (and brand) while providing revenue for the developer. There are obviously abandonment rates to contend with but will save that for another thread.
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