Each app has it's own vibe.

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by Syndicated Puzzles, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    #1 Syndicated Puzzles, Feb 12, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
    I find it really strange that an experienced developer can pick up on the vibe of their own app puts out on the app store and in the back of their head. If the app is successful or not has little to do with the gut feeling the developer has. The moment a dev puts out his second app the comparison to the first app is undertaken immediately. Apps are like children they tend to have their own personalities. It is amazing how different they behave even though they come from the same developer.

    For example our "You" app has been a nightmare from hell, removed from iTunes and on the Mac App Store we are getting hammered with unfair one star reviews. Our Str8ts app has been plagued by a bug that no one can find. We started rebuilding it from scratch this week to get rid of the issue once and for all.

    Would love to hear from devs about the behaviour of their apps. It is really scary when an app turns into a life form and the developer is forced to deal with the issues and crap some source code throws at them.
     
  2. headcaseGames

    headcaseGames Well-Known Member

    Jun 26, 2009
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    Hollywood, CA
    trying to decipher this meshegas that you wrote!

    each project has it's own challenges. you always go into each one with a certain level of knowledge attained from all of the previous experience, but every time you start something else (whether that is adding new features, or tackling a whole different project), some unknown "X Factor" is introduced which puts a unique spin on the cohesiveness of everything.

    this is true with big projects and little projects, of course that means the scale is relative. All of this being said, it is important to be humble in development, as opposed to outlandish - grow organically and sensibly, don't grow your projects from tiny simple affairs to overblown "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" monsters, which quickly become top-heavy and hard to keep under control if you don't know what you are doing (you hear me, Entire Video Game Industry?)
     
  3. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Headcase I am with you, but what I am really talking about is the app taking on a personality. Some apps never ever create a problem for the developer. Other apps just want to keep the dev on his/her toes. Hard work, great native coding, organized structure and simplicity can only do so much, but when the app wants to put up a fight watch out.
     
  4. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    Berlin, Germany

    hmm just started up the appstore for the second time..

    to read the unfair reviews.. and i could not find any.. thoose few just mention you cannot customize it.. you cant set it to your local city.. etc

    can't say if thats true or not.. maybee its a user interface problem where people can't find the right switch.. of its true and you are stuck with some selected cities i could agree with some of the reviews.. this is all guesswork


    as for bugs.. well during my last 10 years of game dev i had my share of problems.. from heavy duty rpgs to light point and click adventures the biggest problem i remember was "ghost data"... data outdated and deleted for a while out of the system , creeping back somehow.. took forever to find the problem.. isolating the file that still had it referenced was the search for the needle in the heystack..

    the more complex projects become the easier it becomes for the project to try to make it own steps into the wrong direction :)
     
  5. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Herr Hesslig,
    We presumed that people would set their hometown first which in return displays the local weather. We never imagined that people would fill in some other city where we are asking for their current city (home town) We were very wrong! A developer can't presume anything You basically have to let the app take over and make the decision for the users.
    We explained this to the users and they still couldn't get it. You has always had these types of issues. Sure we are mainly at fault but the bad vibe was present from day one.
     
  6. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
    1,673
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    Berlin, Germany

    so the user set up a wrong city, then complained that it showed the wrong city?

    thats odd... and it would be hässlig (haesslig) :)

    well one thing you can always presume.. that you encounter the dumbest user possible..

    hmm seems i need to open up the appstore a third time ever and actualy buy "you" to be able to comment on it..
     
  7. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    Berlin, Germany
    well.. ok 3 dollars less in my pocket.. and the conclusion, that yes

    either you app is buggy and does not work

    or your gui is just awfull... you know osx software is usualy designed to be super simple in setting up things.. this app lacks completly the osx way of things.. it looks like an overcomplicated window app that went to mac..

    i was really not able to setup my weather.. and if it takes more than a minute..
    something is really really wrong..

    maybee you can tell me what i need todo to get my weather?

    -entered my citiy in the searchfield and pressed +
    -a window opened
    -i needed to reenter my city in the searchfield , and needed to press the search button, pressing enter did nothing
    - after that the you need to notice the choose dropdown box.. there you need to choose your city again
    - now what.. ahh press the add city button, done
    - check the "set as local weather checkbox, done
    -hmm nothing happens
    - goto the weather tab..
    - set to celcius
    - pressed set, once.. the clocks did some buggy animation..
    - pressed set several times.. yeah alot of buggy animations..

    and closed the settings..

    hmm my city i just added is now the last one in the clockview.. i need to scroll down to see it.. ok..

    weather shows new york usa.. so..

    yeah.. the complete user interface of you is utter **** ... i can fully understand that people give you bad reviews..

    this is OSX, not windows..

    and the app scales horrible, if i go fullscreen the "window" part has extremle huge light brownish barder of emptyness...

    tons of clock on one side.. and on the other side tons of buttons doing all the same.. creating an alarm?! once with description to add once not.. and that spread over like 20-30 buttons?! what the heck..

    i've designed alot GUIs for iOS so faar on contract base and "you" is horrible from a user perspective. it makes no sense at all and is so overblown.. its not even funny..

    it shows whoever designed this app does not understand the apple philosphy at all.. if you use osx you expect things to behave like osx.. if you use iOS you expect things to behave like iOS...

    ahh well since i'm now a customer i was allowed to rant a bit... i hope you excuse me if i'm not sticking to it..
     
  8. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Are we talking about the same app. It seems to me you are trying to make You not work.

    Let us take setting Victoria as a city and further more as local weather

    I hit the plus button and in the choose City I fill in Victoria . By chance the app finds four more cities with the same match. So I choose Victoria BC. I press the add city button
    and the Set as local Weather button. So after some animation New York disappears and Victoria is showing in the large picture window. No idea what you are doing to have all this other stuff happen to you.
    I do agree the process could be easier but the app works very efficiently.
     
  9. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    Berlin, Germany
    Lol, so now i make "you" not working, lol great... Thats the exact reason pal why you get justified bad reviews.. Ive spend 3 dollars on an app that does not work on the very basics.

    Ive typed in berlin, germany..why should i try your city which youve tested.

    Maybee you fetch weather dats only for limited regions what do i know what your guys are doing behind the curtain..

    I can tell you it does not work from here, and your customers are NOT bullshitting you.. Maybee should should man up and actualy test your guys app more and widen your test data further..

    And if 11 steps to set up a city& weather is effiencent, jeez..
    Maybee you should look at the clock app and weather app and how apple set theirs up.. Thats effiencient..

    You as it currently is, is a horrible experience.. If you think its good thats ok thats your opinion, but you dont need to buy it you want to sell it.. Maybee you should take your customers more serious

    Good luck with that..
     
  10. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Mr Ugly,

    I am not asking You to set Victoria as your city Berlin is fine. As a matter of fact even a tiny Dorf in or around Berlin would be fine.

    1. Push the Plus sign

    2. Fill in the city

    3. Hit search just in case of multiple listings

    4. Choose the city if there are multiple cities with the same name

    5. set as local weather (if desired)

    6. Hit add city

    Add the city shows up as one of the chosen cities as a circular clock on the lefthand side of the You app.

    So how on earth are You getting 11 steps ? We can eliminate the Choose city button just have the possible choices show up as a list automatically. I guess the plus sign could only open the Search City widget. So at best no matter what we do we need a minimum of four or five steps. We are at six steps. Not so bad considering users only have to do this once.

    I love to listen to everything customers tell us. Your suggestions will help us possibly eliminate two steps in choosing the city procedure. We have updated You twice already and it looks like we will do so every week. So we are improving the experience every week.

    Mr Ugly, I am not quite sure why you are so aggressive and angry life is too short enjoy the world it is a great place. If I could make a suggestion buy yourself a couple of fishing rods and start eel fishing in the local rivers and lakes. It is very relaxing. I used to do it when I lived in Germany. Smoked eel, couple of slices of fresh bread and a glass of fresh milk (beer) makes everything worthwhile.
     
  11. Stroffolino

    Stroffolino Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Apr 28, 2009
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    Software Engineer
    Pennsylvania
    Where are you getting the impression that Mr Ugly is "angry"?

    The guy went out of his way to purchase your app to give you some unfiltered constructive feedback - things you can actually act on. The least you could do is express some gratitude, or offer to reimburse him his $3.

    Blaming usability issues on users is a recipe for failure. If a feature exists, but the application doesn't make it obvious how to to do it, it may as well not exist. Users shouldn't be expected to jump through hoops - tools like YOU are supposed to make their lives easier. If there's any learning curve it defeats the purpose.


     
  12. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Hello Stroffolino,

    Wait a minute here. I appreciate his criticism 100 % but at one point that criticism has to be based on some form of reality. I followed his movements on setting up a city and can't reproduce his results. 11 steps to set up a city? It simply isn't correct. It is 6 steps. His criticism will hopefully allow me to remove 1 step. As I said I am grateful for this.

    After you set up the cities once then you can enjoy the app. Most of his statements aren't correct. I tried ten times to set a city as the local weather and it shows up as the first city clock and displays the local weather in the big window every time. So no idea how he gets the local city to show up at the bottom of the list of clocks.

    The list goes on...... so yes the app needs to be updated we are willing to do this but You is nothing like Mr.Ugly is describing.
     
  13. dug

    dug Member

    Sep 8, 2010
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    I would say that 75% of the time Mr. Ugly comments on an app in this forum, the reaction from the developer is defensive / negative. This is understandable, but unfortunate.

    I'm new to iOS, and I'm a novice game developer, but I've been in the software business for a fair amount of time. Lots of your users are not going to take the time to sugar-coat their criticism. In fact, some of them will be downright hostile. I think it's important to develop a thick enough skin to take away the items you can take action on, and disregard the venting. Your job as a developer is to delight your users, not argue with them.

    I don't always agree with Mr. Ugly's perspective, but the guy is an experienced pro - he is worth listening to. I don't really think he is malicious, just blunt.
     
  14. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
    1,673
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    Berlin, Germany
    #14 mr.Ugly, Feb 14, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
    it just does not work for me.. there is nothing more to say on this matter..
    i tried it out because you said you had unfair reviews and i encountered the
    same problems.. for whatever reason, they exist and the reviews in this case are true.. if you still won't believe it because it "works for you"..

    what do you expect here.. should i do a screencast to show you that "you" is buggy and does not work for me and i encounter the same behaviour like your other customers? i don't need to proof anything, either you believe me or not.. you can be the "hurt" developer all day long, crying out for foul play..

    and my statement stands.. the hole ui is not even close to osx standards.
    setting things up on this should be no more than 3 steps of which one would be optinal/case based.. i think its horrid.. but thats purely my personal opinion..

    maybee someone else wants to try out "You" and play beta tester..

    take care guys..
     
  15. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Mr, Ugly no worries . We are going to rip through your comments and simplify as much as we can. Your comments are appreciated. Actually looking forward to simplifying the app further. We are committed to making our apps a pleasant experience.
     
  16. Ovogame

    Ovogame Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    Morestel, France
    Man, you had such the bad reaction here. You should be thinking, s..t, my app is broken or something is badly designed. Customer are never wrong, your app is faulty if they can't use it the way they expect it to work. Here it looks like you have a bug that kick off on some machines or you interface is misleading customer and they are not doing what you expect them to do. Either way, it is the app fault, not the customer.

    Do a blind test: ask random people whom never saw the app before and watch them with your mouth shut (completely shut). It always amaze me how many things I take for granted are actually absolutely not for the random user. Remember that we became expert at our apps, to beta test properly, you need people with fresh new eyes on it.

    JC
     
  17. NickFalk

    NickFalk Well-Known Member

    @Syndicated Puzzles

    From the exchange between you and Mr. Ugly it sounds like you might be hit by that ol' curse of knowledge. "You" might work just fine if you know exactly how to use it, as you obviously do.

    For the app to be successful in the eye of your customers however it obviously needs to be so intuitive that they can't possibly go wrong. From Mr. Ugly's feedback, as well as those "unfair" low ratings, this seems not to be the case...
     
  18. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    #18 Syndicated Puzzles, Feb 14, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
    Agreed, on all counts the app has been simplified already (long night) We basically are letting the interface do all the work for the user. Taking away the choices and giving the customer a golden spoon really seems to be the best and only way to get them from point A to point B during set up. You is our only app that sells all across the world. Usually 15 + different countries, I can imagine that everyone has a different behaviour towards using You.

    You worked well but that simply isn't good enough when you have to presume a customer is going to behave in a logical way. They might not .

    Thanks Mr. Ugly for pointing out your trees in your forest. Now we think we have a public park where the You trees belong to everyone.
     
  19. Syndicated Puzzles

    Syndicated Puzzles Well-Known Member

    The new You

    Mr Ugly,

    The new version of You is up and running could you please try to set up a new city. Should be very simple now.
     
  20. Ovogame

    Ovogame Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    Game Developer
    Morestel, France
    Welldone, that's the way to react. I know that sometime critizism are unjustified but personally, if I heard more than once the same critic from different beta tester, I know that there is something to investigate. It might no be fixable but I know that it is an issue and not just the tester trying to be mean with me :)

    We all have to learn from watching other using our stuff. That's my golden rule.

    JC
     

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