When did "rogue-like" become so hip?

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion and Questions' started by tea, May 16, 2014.

  1. tea

    tea Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2010
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    I became kind of curious about rogue-like games, and wondering why they seem to be so fashionable? So I'm wondering what TA forum members think about this...

    - What are the great (rogue-like) games I should absolutely play?
    - What is making these games so popular?
    - What are the features that make a rogue-like awesome?

    This is not altogether idle curiosity. I'm asking because I have a kind of project in mind (not necessarily short term) and I'm wondering how it would (possibly) fit into the genre.

    Please, please answer, and thanks in advance!
     
  2. Bronxsta

    Bronxsta Well-Known Member

    #2 Bronxsta, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
    If you want to get a wider understanding of what makes the roguelike so great, you must expand your horizons beyond IOS. Check out Rogue, the game that laid the foundation for the genre (They're called roguelikes, because these games are like Rogue). Check out the IOS greats like Cavern, 868-Hack, Hoplite, Dungeonism, and Wayward Souls. Check out Spelunky, Dungeons of Dredmor, Teleglitch, The Binding of Isaac, FTL, Dwarf Fortress on PC

    There is a long-running debate on what exactly defines a roguelike. While many elements are agreed on - procedurally generated levels, permadeath, challenging gameplay - there's one camp that insists that a roguelike must be turn-based and isometric (usually described as classic or traditional roguelikes) and another that ascribes to the broader definition of the genre, which include games that mix roguelike elements with other gameplay styles such as first person shooters and platformers. I'm tend to go with the latter; such restrictions are close minded and don't allow the genre to grow and expand. There are also "rogue-lites" or roguelike-likes, games that have some of the elements but wouldn't be considered true roguelikes

    What makes roguelikes so enjoyable? Well, personally, my entry into roguelikes was the action-RPG Demon's Souls. Now Demons' Souls is not a roguelike, but I consider it a gateway to the genre, an introduction to the basic elements and mindset needed to enjoy the roguelike genre and perhaps hard games in general. Death is quick, and sudden, and lurking around every corner. You need to be careful and cautious. Recklessness gets you killed. You need to accept that a wrong decision, a lapse in judgement, could make you lose hours of progress. Your life in Demons' Souls is precious and playing foolishly will only mean a quick death.

    I think that's perhaps the most critical reason behind the appeal of roguelike. Life has meaning, death has consequence. The setback is more than a quick load to the last checkpoint. The games demand more from a player. They demand that you improve your skills, actually become a better player. They demand that you play on a knife's edge, where a simple mistake could equal death and failure. It's that slim margin for error, that gives these games true tension, not the manufactured atmospheres of Outlast or Dead Space, but tension that derives from your skills or lack of skills, from the fear of what lies around the next corner or the darkness ahead.
     
  3. Jorlen

    Jorlen Well-Known Member

    Jan 7, 2009
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    #3 Jorlen, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
    Good question about what is making rogue-likes so popular these days. All I can think of, is that all the geeks like me who loved them back in the 8086 days and then played everything rogue-like since, eventually grew up and still enjoy the games today. I've noticed pretty much everywhere, there's a lot of people still interested in the genre, it's quite surprising to me.

    Ten years ago, roguelikes were not discussed like they are today, as far as I know, so it might have come with the popularity of the smart phone, specifically when they became capable of some good mobile gaming. There might have been some roguelikes on gameboys and DS but NOTHING compared to iphones and android devices, so this likely played a big role in it.

    Without going into the "what is a roguelike" debate, here's what makes a good RL for me:

    * Challenging gameplay that rewards strategy and planning
    * Randomized levels and other elements within (this for me is a must)
    * Permadeath or at leave the OPTION of permadeath
    * Lots of item variety, enemy variety and unpredictable stuff (traps, etc)
    * Easy to pick up and play (kinda comes with the package, usually)
    * An online leaderboard helps because it promotes competition and shows you how well others are doing

    Notice that I did not mention graphics. While I won't deny that I love the charm that Sword of Fargoal has, graphics take a backseat for roguelikes.

    Which rogue-likes you should play... Well, this is subjective, but I recommend the following for IOS (PC and all other platforms are another story but I can recommend some on those if you want)

    * Cavern - Easily one of my favorite roguelikes of all time, because it combines elements of Diablo style inventory and town portals, shops along with permadeath and fairly difficult gameplay. IT also has mostly randomized levels but with some occasional static rooms and areas.

    * Sword of Fargoal - A classic redone and I've spent way too much time playing this game. If played on the higher difficulties with permadeath, it is extremely challenging and the levels are HUGE

    * Endless Depths - This one isn't well known but I've been playing it for years. Much like Cavern, there is diablo-like elements, an inventory, skill system for leveling up, equipment, etc. It's purely a dungeon crawl, just keep going down till you die.

    * Wayward Souls - A new entry on the market but one with amazing art, music and heavily action-based gameplay. Best way I can describe it is like a 2D Dark souls, but with some differences. Might not be classed as a rogue-like to some, but I consider it to be an action rogue-like and one of the best I've played.

    There's so many more, and probably a few of my favorites I can't think of right now, but I'm sure others will respond and give you some ideas.
     
  4. Exact-Psience

    Exact-Psience Well-Known Member

    Jan 12, 2012
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    The Work-At-Home Guy
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    My guess is, since you werent born yet. :)
     
  5. smegly

    smegly Well-Known Member

    Mar 27, 2012
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    I think it's mainly a matter of small developers realizing that the format is a very good one for them to make a good game without having the time or resources to make a big game with a lot of differentiated content.

    I also think it appeals to gamers who want short RPG experiences. Personally, I don't really like a full scripted RPG to be much less than 20 hours unless it's an ARPG, but I'm perfectly happy with a rogue-like I can beat in under two hours. There's more potential for instant gratification there.
     
  6. expleo

    expleo Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Its been 'hip' for a long time, but perhaps more accessible for a lot of people when we start seing more games with graphics etc.

    Diablo was the first mainstream roguelike I would say, it differs from the so called 'berlin interpretation' with being real time and not turn based.

    What is a roguelike can be argued to lenghts, but the core would be permadeath (no soup for you) and procedural generated stuff to explore, with resource management.

    I would say you also need lots of stuff to find, one of the aspects of diablo. People played same levels over and over and over for the odd shot at getting a rare item.

    Some people, like me, prefere turn based, like cardinal quest, sword of farogal, caverns, quest of duneons etc, other (perhaps more mainstream) preferes real time, like heroes of loot, wayward souls.

    And some like both.

    I gues the apealing is that it can be created by small teams, carefull management of resources, understanding of the game will get you longer than just randomly do stuff, and the thrill of surviving.

    So as 'when' the hype came ? In certain circles of people, I'd say about 25 years ago :) But back then you had to be a lab geek.
     
  7. christopherrocs

    christopherrocs Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the fire for rogue likes has really sparked lately. I really don't get it, most of them have not to much of a combat system and such. The two I enjoy are the enchanted cave and (of course) wayward souls
     
  8. tops2

    tops2 Well-Known Member

    Jan 21, 2011
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    #8 tops2, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
    With the expanded definition of roguelike..the first roguelike I really got into is Diablo. Randomized levels..tons of loot.. I can play hardcore for the permadeath part if I care or regular like Rogue Legacy (granted this isn't "strictly" roguelike...more roguelike-like).

    It does seem to be more of a buzz word that caught on the past few years.
     
  9. undeadcow

    undeadcow Well-Known Member

    Dec 4, 2010
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    #9 undeadcow, May 17, 2014
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
    Assuming iOS compatibility is desired then Cavern, WazHack, and Dungeon Plunder my favorites. The Dungeon, Legends of Yore, Pitman, Sword of Fargoal, Rogue Ninja, and Zaga-33 are some other recommendations I've kept on my iPod.
     
  10. Greyskull

    Greyskull Well-Known Member

    Dec 13, 2009
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    Photographer/Social Sciences adjunct/sweet sweet l
    Fort Lauderdale
    In the 90's on alt.games.roguelikes ;)
     
  11. JCho133

    JCho133 Well-Known Member

    Jul 27, 2012
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    Well, everyone has explained everything pretty darn well, but no one recommended checking out Cardinal Quest 2!

    Check it out, it's free, with loads of content, and the freemium aspects are completely unobtrusive. It plays like a premium game.
     
  12. kioshi

    kioshi Well-Known Member

    Apr 9, 2011
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    Don't forget 100 Rogues!
     
  13. tea

    tea Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2010
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    Nah, I'm a bit older than that actually.
     
  14. tea

    tea Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2010
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    Actually checked wiki on 'rogue-likes', so I guess that, in part, I was trying to understand the 'mobile revival' part of it.

    Designing 'challenging gameplay' involves weird dilemmas, including "is it okay for (a lot of) people not to finish the game?".

    Procedurally generated gameplay is an itch I've been scratching over and over again. It's neither easy nor economical, I just think it makes sense for tech driven (vs art/design driven) game development.

    "The setback is more than a quick load to the last checkpoint"

    Care to elaborate on this? I guess this requires core gameplay to be very engaging because permadeath just sounds like the promise of starting over after several hours of play.


    Thanks for the detailed explanation, I'll be reading through this again and check some refs...
     
  15. Yossarian

    Yossarian Well-Known Member

    Mar 21, 2012
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    My latest game called Down In The Deep is coming out at the end of this month and it is a real-time roguelike.

    Game thread on upcoming games -
    http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?p=3225918#post3225918

    From my point of view as a developer roguelikes are very interesting to make as there is a lot of features and abilities that can be added. Also, they present a lot of interesting programming challenges.

    Also, from a mobile point of view they are well suited for hand held gaming.

    Some screen-shots of Down In The Deep -
     

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  16. tea

    tea Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2010
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    Thanks! Don't really know what more I could ask than so many interesting suggestions and comments.

    Looking at the feature list you suggest, I think 2,4,5,6 and even to some extent permadeath, fit well with how people play nowadays - I'm always amazed at how simple and obvious the first minutes of play have to be to get (most) young players into a game.

    But I think providing permadeath as an option practically kills it(?). imho it's a feature that can't be bolted on top of an existing design...
     
  17. tea

    tea Well-Known Member

    Jul 23, 2010
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    Downloading :D
     
  18. drelbs

    drelbs Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2009
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    @o.o@

    ASCII Princess Leia approves of this thread.

    I think we aren't seeing lots of new roguelikes, but lot of its better qualities are being used in other games which is A-OK by me.

    I'm especially happy to see more in the way of multiplayer games with roguelike qualities, especially local co-op games which are hard to find these days on the PC.

    Legend of Dungeon is a real treat.

    And you've got half a day to jump in on a successful Kickstarter for Popup Dungeon if you're into that sort of thing.

    And I think someone already mentioned Spelunky, which is great as well.

    Not multiplayer, but if Rogue and Ultima Underworld had a baby, it'd look a lot like Delver.
     
  19. drelbs

    drelbs Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2009
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    Totally forgot about iOS...

    Sword of Fargoal is a no-brainer, especially if you're new to the genre.

    Rogue Touch is the Cadillac of roguelikes on iOS, and you might as well get a (very good!) taste of the game that started it all.

    Cavern is one of my favorites - a healthy mix of random with some predefined structures. Good all around.

    868-HACK is easily the best of the 'puzzle' roguelikes.

    If you want to bring along a party Mysterious Castle has a tiny UI on the phone, but is very playable.

    Pitman has music by me in it! :D
     
  20. Bronxsta

    Bronxsta Well-Known Member

    Not sure what you're saying here. Permadeath is a must. It's what makes a roguelike so intense, because any mistake could be your last. Some games like Wayward Souls and Rogue Legacy have upgrades or unlock that persist between playthroughs

    Also randomly generated and prodecurally genated are different. Technially a roguelike is procedural and rogue-lites are random. Random usually works like you have a collection of rooms and across playthroughs, you just encounter random arrangements of rooms. So after a while, you come across familiar rooms

    Procedural has new rooms and layouts made from an algorithm, so you'll never see the same area, except for maybe preset boss areas or special locations
     

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