Non-action, casual, real-time strategy game?

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by baris, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2010
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    I'm trying to decide on my next game project. The last one didn't go too well, so I want to choose more carefully this time..

    I really like casual strategy games (my favorites for iOS: Modern Conflict, Bees vs. Ants, Galcon). I plan to make a game similar to these, but more strategy-oriented, rather than action (and pretty graphics, probably). The plus side is, I already have some frameworks for this type of game from my previous project, and a few good ideas.

    I would very much appreciate your input.. Do you think this type of game is "commercially viable" at all, or is rather mindless action a must? Do you think a good casual-ish strategy game is missing from the App Store?

    Also, I feel these types of games belong in a sub-genre (eg. vertex-edge strategy game, perhaps?), but can't put my finger on it, any ideas? Any recommendations for this type of good casual strategy game?
     
  2. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    what the hex(hehe) is a vertex edge strategie game?


    you ask for casual strategie games.. try risk thats as casual as things goes..

    anything else is not casual anymore.. and even risk is pretty complex for some of the more casual players :)


    and i you don't mind asking.. what was the project you worked on before?
     
  3. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    Vertex-edge strategy game is my poor effort to come up with a name. :)

    Basically, what I mean is, a real time strategy game - where you have bases and roads connecting some of the bases. You can't freely roam the map with your troops, you only move and attack from one base to another. And usually the map is just one screen.

    I like Risk too, but what I had in mind is a quicker, more realtime game.

    --
    My previous game was OCTOPI, sort of a mix between the board game go and Snake. (If you're interested, pm me and I can send you a promo code).
     
  4. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

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    so you mean like galcon but with "streets"... that been done.. plenty.

    sci fi, modern times, fantasy etc..

    i don't think you will find your luck in there.. because thoose games are usualy to "core" for casual and to "casual" for core gamers..

    and i would not even consider them really strategie games.. but for that i'm to much of a core strategie gamer who was mildly dissapointed by starcraft2.


    so what game did you made? you kept that answere open.. looking at previous projects often helps to get a feeling if project X is even feasible for someone todo..
     
  5. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2010
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    Yes, that's what I mean. Can you tell me some of the good ones you know?

    I agree they're not really strategy games. The ones I know (Modern Conflict, Bees vs. Ants, Galcon) are more action games than strategy games. That's what I meant by non-action.. I have a few ideas to build a more solid strategy game based on this "galcon with streets" concept.

    I hadn't left the question open: "My previous game was OCTOPI, sort of a mix between the board game go and Snake."

    http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/octopi/id382088214?mt=8

    But I don't really care for a feasibility opinion.
     
  6. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    #6 mr.Ugly, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010


    sorry skipped over octopi... looked like a signature with the ----- lines :)

    and no need for a promo code.. if i want to take a look at something i'm not too shy to just buy it to try it out..
    with a dollar you can't make much wrong anway.



    on of the "strategy" games i found in my itunes are the ones you named
    and

    judgement day war
    hills and river remain

    there where alot more but at some time i deleted all "lite" version that collected dust in itunes..

    but there are ALOT more of thoose games.. (and i think they are boring)
     
  7. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! And maybe my game will change your mind ;p

    I googled "judgement day war", and apparently it got renamed to "modern conflict" :)
    I don't know the other one but I agree, it doesn't look very promising as a strategy game.
     
  8. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    #8 mr.Ugly, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
    well this is a really really ugly game :) hehe ... havent seen such collection of "clip" arts in a looong time.. reminds me a but of the 90 website with their "blinking" font :)


    as for the game itself..its interesting.. but i don't see any difficulty except the timer.. i went straight to level 7 and did not really understand where the "fun"
    is.. or the difficult.. all you had todo is build XXXX connections.. "fat" snakes all the time and you'll never loose a single ball/cell

    the only time i lost was due to the timer, wich i didnt checked at first at all..

    the game has tons of problems..

    - it looks way to ugly

    - it has no coherent theme or style.. its just a mix of "found on the internet art"

    - there is no logical structure inside the hole application.. the menues are horrible.. everything is cluttered anywhere.. why is a part of the tutorial in the about section?

    - 2 achievements is a nice joke :)

    - controls are bad on a full board.. you cannot place new balls on a previous spot if you do the "drag to create".. if you do a tap to create you get a nice fixed rastered playfield with not problems.. what do you need the "free" one for? just make the complete game a rastered playfield and be done with that

    - overall the hole game lacks pretty much anything.. what you put on the appstore is something i would consider very early concept build with tons of placeholder assets and unfinished structure.

    -i assume you are the coder and have practically no art skills whatsoever..
    get yourself an artist.. asap.. and maybe a gamedesigner so you can think together about the gamestructure itself and improve on this one. a look like osmos would fit your game good.

    - good luck with that, potential is there.. but you have a long way ahead of you
     
  9. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, I'm a bit annoyed with your condescending tone and unsolicited dissection of my game - but I appreciate the feedback. Besides, you're a paying customer, so it's all right.

    I don't see why 2 achievements is a joke, and I don't think the menu structure is illogical - except the introduction of the tutorial being in the about section, which was a last minute decision based on testing with people, who found the tutorial too long to read. In the next update, and the soon coming iPad version there is an interactive tutorial.

    That said, you don't assume I have no art skills, you know so from looking at the game (and you would really flip out if you saw the first version: http://www.appsafari.com/games/12570/octopi/ :). The "art" in the game is a mix of Gimp, some free stuff from mysitemyway.com and stock photos bought from dreamstime.com. I think I'm quite done with this game for now, but I want to have more professional artwork for the next one.

    Time is what drives the game forward, so it's natural you will lose out to time. But I guess the difficulty curve is a bit flat at the beginning. If you play a few more levels, you will see your XXXX tactic won't work, because your cells age much more quickly.
    Taking into account what you say, I will try to adjust the difficulty curve a little more on the iPad version I'm submitting today.
     
  10. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

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    I played a game a long time ago (like 10+ years), so long ago that I can't remember the name... (good artists copy, great artists copy and then forget who they copied it from)

    It was an online MMO that combined the fun of real time strategy with casual gaming. It was kind of like Civilizations, but MMO. You started with a single kingdom that was placed on a map with about 20 other players. You could build and research armies and technologies, and send those armies out.

    Each army could only move so far per day or hour so it kept the game super casual. However, you had to log in every day or every few hours to move your armies if you wanted to keep your competitive advantage.

    You could conquer other players cities and kingdoms, forge alliances, and generally work to conquer the entire map. Each game had a time limit, like a week or so, and a the end whomever had racked up the most points and influence won.

    This made it awesome because the players kept coming back over and over again consistently to check up on how their kingdom was doing. It was a persistent universe, but still super casual at the same time.

    Anyway, this has been an idea I've had on my stack of ideas for a while. It's a pretty cool mix of genres and fits the bill for a "casual semi-real-time-strategy game"
     
  11. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

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    Also, a humble suggestion- don't ever be annoyed at unsolicited feedback like this. Although it can be a hard pill to swallow, it's invaluable to receive outside opinions and very rare to ever get honest in depth feedback on your projects like this. It is constructive criticism in the truest sense of the word.
     
  12. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    #12 mr.Ugly, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010

    well to be honest i think your old design , even as simple as it is

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    is alot more coherent than what you have in the actual version..

    the new one is alot worser.. you mix 10 different styles together and end up with an pretty ugly mix..

    i as a customer vote to get the old gfx back, thnx :)


    and yes i think there is alot wrong with the game.. and feel free to be annoyed with me.. i have no problem with that.. i'm not your buddy or the nice guy from across the street..

    as for the XXX tactics.. it went well so faar.. like i said only level 7 (of 11)
    i do not use the drap mechanics because i think they are broken.. optical correct spaces can't be occupied by another buble to close the gap was pretty annoying at the beginning.. then just use the tap method, which sadly is anything from really respnsive.. i lose alot of times because touches do not get interpreted correctly, well

    you are free to ignore any of my posts :)


    edit: adding a current screenshot for comparsion



    as for the strategie game.. well octopi is something along that like one could assume..

    so for the strategie game part of the thread..

    i would suggest aim for something smaller, get an artist, get it polished and shiney..

    and spend more time into getting it round (instead of bigger) ... how about octopi 2 all bright and shiney if octopi itself didnt sell enough..


    and as for the "unsolicited dissection of my game" ...

    this is very important imho.. how can anyone give you any advice on foturue projects of yours without knowing where you come from?

    if the epic guys ask you what todo next you would not conside to tell them make a match3 game or?

    so if you are into consulting someone.. its is of great importance what you've been doing before..

    thats the reason i asked in the first place..
     
  13. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    #13 baris, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
    My question was about whether there was room for a specific type of game ("vertex-edge strategy game" ;p), not whether you thought I could pull it off. Other than the art part, what I have in mind isn't much more difficult from octopi (and most of my code for octopi, such as a 2-player mode against an AI, didn't make it into the final cut of the game, because I wasn't satisfied with the gameplay).

    Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your feedback. I don't think it is constructive criticism entirely - I think it's a mix between that and trying to find and generalize faults. You're not my buddy across the street, but don't pretend you're entirely a well-meaning stranger either. As long as you tolerate my opinion of your opinion and tone, your harsh criticism is very welcome and you're A+ in my book.

    --
    The drag mechanics are not broken, they are very precise. The tap move is not unresponsive, but it is not easy to get used to. Some misinterpretation is unescapable, because some taps can just mean two things. You might find this not very user friendly, but it is a necessary price to pay for the unique game mechanics - I went through many different move interpretation schemes and tested them with actual players to come to this one. Note that I've never complained the game didn't do well.
     
  14. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    thats all ok.. but you asked for a project for you to make.. and one cannot make a true judgement call if someone doesn't know you and where you come from... sometimes the question asked is not the important one.. most of the time its alot easier to asnwere it if you take 3-4 steps back and start from there..

    as for the controls.. buggy or not its always dependant on the perspective.. since a user doesnt know what you had in mind, which 20 versions you tested through he can only comment on that he plays nothing more..

    i stil think a fixed grid would suite the controls better and be of better feedback to the user.. and you could need better art..

    good luck with your future products ;D if you need any help, pm me :)
     
  15. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    @BravadoWaffle
    Is that where Robo Arena came from? It sounds interesting, I'll check it out when it comes out (if I may put in an unsolicited comment myself :), just casually looking at your website didn't give too much of a strategy game feel.. but that is my 'about to submit a game'-fried brain talking).
     
  16. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    See, when you say my question -which was quite explicit, and not about a project for me to make, but about the marketplace for that sort of project- is not the important one, but you know better which question I need the answer to, that's quite condescending.

    What kind of grid do you mean? Like a hexagonal one? I'll think about whether that might work somehow.

    I doubt I will pm you for help, but I'd be glad to have you be a beta tester once it's nearing completion. That way we both win: I get lots of feedback and you get to do what you like doing - solicitedly :)
     
  17. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    Robo Arena came from crossing Gunbound with Robo Rally with another game I used to play a looooong loooong time ago.

    Thanks for checking out our site! You are right, it currently doesn't give much info about the game at all. That will change as soon as we get a gameplay video and a bit more to show. Currently we are still in Alpha working in and balancing all the features and elements of the game. Unfortunately, nothing much to show the public yet.

    Hope you find a cool casual strategy game to do. I'm a huge fan of the genre myself so I'll be watching out for it!
     
  18. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    Yes a hex grid, it would make clear where you can expand and you wont have the trouble to not be able to judge why you cant expand into direction x, because it looks ok but it doesnt work.. So you try a couple times and just loose time.
     
  19. baris

    baris Well-Known Member

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    To reiterate my original question, if anyone has any comments on the market for casual strategy games on the iPad, I am very interested to hear them. By casual, I mean taking <= 20-30min per game, rather than 'watered down' or 'mixed with action'.

    ***

    @mr.ugly
    I ended up delaying the launch of the iPad version by a week and made quite a few changes. Your comments were very helpful (except I would break my iMac sooner than add superfluous achievements ;p), thanks again.

    I checked out that "hills and river remain" game, and it was quite awful as you said. I've only played the updated version ("modern conflict") of "judgement day", and I find it pretty good, though not exactly strategy. I decided to go ahead with making this kind of game, I feel there is room for innovation there.
     
  20. Bane Games

    Bane Games Well-Known Member

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    If I was making a "casual" strategy game for iOS I'd look closer to 1-5 minutes per game. You want something people can pick up and play quickly while still having some deep strategy elements.

    As for your original question, I think there is room for a good strategy game on both iPhone and iPad. There is no clear winner at this stage other than Plants vs Zombies, which is more tower defence than pure strategy as you are describing.

    Good luck, I'd love to see a solid strategy game for iOS.
     

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