$100,000 Build (dev) Fund

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by kunaalkiip, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    Hey Guys, I work with a company called Kiip (site: kiip dot me), and wanted to tell you about a $100,000 build fund, where we're giving away $5,000 each to 20 developers, and helping you promote your app over the next 2 months.

    You can see more here: http://kiip.me/fund and feel free to ask me any questions!


    Disclaimer:
    I'm brand new here, and I just started at Kiip, a rewards network and I'm getting a bit further into the gaming industry. I'm a long time lurker. But I'm hoping to help here where I can with any marketing and monetization questions. MODS, I know this is skirting close to promotion, but I'm just sharing something that I think devs in here will find useful and I promise to contribute! If you disagree, feel free to delete this post, and I will understand.
     
  2. David Phan

    David Phan Well-Known Member

    Feb 27, 2012
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    President & Producer
    Vancouver
    Just a few thoughts on this post and the 100k Build Fund.

    1.) In my opinion this post is ok. If you were just straight-up pushing Kiip's services then it'd be problematic, but this is a "positive promotion" that may help out small development teams who need capital.

    2.) I have some concerns with regards to the Terms and Conditions of the Build Fund. As part of the acceptance critieria, game and business information needs to be provided which is fine, but the Terms and Conditions state:

    •Nature of Submissions. While Kiip does not expect that it will need to disclose your Application to others, you understand that your Application, as well as any other information or materials provided by you to Kiip (collectively, the “Materials”) are provided without any expectation that they will be held in confidence or that Kiip will be in any way restricted with respect to such Materials, any contrary indication of restrictions outside these Terms notwithstanding.


    and this:

    •KIIP WILL NOT BE LIABLE IN CONNECTION WITH THESE TERMS OR ANY SUBJECT MATTER RELATED TO THESE TERMS (WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, OR ANY OTHER LEGAL OR EQUITABLE THEORY) FOR (I) ANY INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR OTHER CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, OR (II) FOR ANY AMOUNTS IN EXCESS OF TEN DOLLARS ($10).

    These terms are problematic for me as a developer. With the state of affairs around game copying/cloning in our industry, I feel it is a lot to request that developers not expect any confidentiality in the application process. I do not mean any offense by this feedback and I am not suggesting anything negative about Kiip as a company. I understand that Kiip and other mobile companies have an obligation to set terms that are favorable to them, but our IP and our game is all that some of us have and these terms just feel too "loose" in my opinion.

    I don't know what the solution is or if there even needs to be one. I'm sure there are developers who are fine with those particular terms. I just wanted to pass along my take on the one issue that sticks out for me in the Terms and Conditions.

    Otherwise, the fund is a great idea and almost any capital (for the most part)is welcome when you're cash strapped.

    DP
     
  3. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    David, thanks for posting, and I definitely get what you're saying. I just talked to the guy who worked with the lawyers in putting them together. We were advised by them to be protective of ourselves - it's a reality of having venture capital money in the bank, and although we'd love to omit it, legalese is a necessary evil.
     
  4. LiamAtDevour

    LiamAtDevour Well-Known Member

    Feb 1, 2012
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    Co-founder/Programmer at Devour Games
    Brisbane, Australia.
    This looks like an awesome opportunity. I had a quick read through the T&Cs but couldn't find anything about eligibility. From what I know if Kiip, they provide real life rewards for virtual achievements. Obviously rewards like coupons would be only valid in certain countries/states, so I'm wondering if Kiip and this promotion are limited to specific regions.

    I'm an Australian developer and it's very common for us to be excluded from competitions and promotions.
     
  5. Hercule

    Hercule Well-Known Member

    Dec 16, 2010
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    lawyer make contract to protect you, not to make business...
    NDA are pretty common. I don't thing any serious dev will apply with these terms.
     
  6. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    Not this one! It is a global competition and anybody can apply.

    About the rewards, yes they are primarily in the U.S. We're launching our first campaigns in Canada and the U.K. very shortly and now have a Sales office in Asia.
     
  7. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    Game Designer
    Application submitted! Looking forwards to hearing back from you guys.

    I was looking at Kiip a little while ago and thought it looked like a very promising system. It's awesome to see you guys reaching out like this to the indie community! I hope, for all our sakes, that it helps get you firmly established in the industry, this is the direction I see advertising and game monetization going in the future!
     
  8. LiamAtDevour

    LiamAtDevour Well-Known Member

    Feb 1, 2012
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    Co-founder/Programmer at Devour Games
    Brisbane, Australia.
    Thanks for the response! We'll be applying soon :)
     
  9. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    Thanks for Submitting!

    Thanks for submitting everyone! Feel free to ping me at [email protected] or through PM and I'll keep an eye out for your submissions! Also, don't hesitate to e-mail to chat about Kiip or have any questions answered.
     
  10. racingspider

    racingspider Well-Known Member

    What does 'integrate' Kiip with the app mean?

    Is that an icon, splash screen, nag messages, ads? What sort of extra things will Kiip be doing on the chosen apps?
     
  11. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    Kiip is a rewards network. So we work with top brands to give your players real rewards at achievement points within your game. We've partnered up with brands like Pepsi, and Best Buy in the past, and are currently running an exciting campaign with Skittles. We know game developers care about user experience, and we believe that too, so we are as unobtrusive as possible.

    When a player gets a high score, for example, they would get a small pop up at the bottom of their screen for 10 seconds telling them they've received a reward, when they tap it, an HTML5 pop up (so they don't leave your game) and will allow them to enter their e-mail and they will receive the reward in their e-mail.

    PM me your e-mail and I can send you a pdf with some visuals and we can go over it on a phone call and I can answer any questions you have, as well.
     
  12. david_loqheart

    david_loqheart Active Member

    Feb 3, 2012
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    Founder of Loqheart: Game Development
    San Francisco, CA
    "any other information or materials provided by you to Kiip (collectively, the “Materials”) are provided without any expectation that they will be held in confidence or that Kiip will be in any way restricted with respect to such Materials, any contrary indication of restrictions outside these Terms notwithstanding."

    I TOO am very concerned about this language. Considering the rampant cloning going on by larger studios and publishers.
     
  13. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    Hey David...

    I understand. We really wish we didn't have to put it, but as I said before, having VC money makes our lawyers have to put this in.

    But just to be a bit more clear. We don't require submissions to include any code or anything of the sort. All we need is a presentation with a general visual overview of the concept behind the game, information on the team, and your monetization plans. We keep the information secure and only show the presentations to the judges of the Build Fund.

    I know your concern may still be there, but if you would like to get to know us better before submitting, feel free to contact me at [email protected].
     
  14. Hercule

    Hercule Well-Known Member

    Dec 16, 2010
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    Your lawyers are your bosses ?

    Big publisher with 100 times more money to loose and a long track record of good buisness ethic, still signed NDA.
    You ask small developper, without legal battle resources, to trust a young VC compagny, without a long track record in the business. Well...

    I don't know your company, and you may be totally trustable. Your lawyers may have just given you bad advices.
    But these termes is a big bad red sign in your defavor.

    Now dev are totally aware of the situation. And at least they can take their decisions with all informations.
     
  15. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    We are not a VC company, and we have no interest in building games ourselves (nor do we have the time). If you look at our site, we are a rewards network, and we're giving away $5,000 each to 20 indie developers for games that they use on our network. We are not in the same business as developers, and I hope you understand that. We want to help you with our rewards network in a win/win situation. And with our build fund, we only need your concept, team, and how you will monetize. We only partner with developers, and mostly indie developers.
     
  16. Hercule

    Hercule Well-Known Member

    Dec 16, 2010
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    Ok then. Good luck.
     
  17. VRPgames

    VRPgames Well-Known Member

    Jun 2, 2011
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    Ireland
    I think it's a new way of scam. Free cheese can only be found in a mousetrap.
     
  18. TouchDeveloper

    TouchDeveloper Active Member

    Feb 19, 2012
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    #18 TouchDeveloper, Mar 10, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
    Caveats to consider

    I have no affiliation with this company or any such company nor am I planning to use their network but this does seem like a legit business model. Whether it will succeed or not is a different issue.

    They are spending this money on "customer acquisition" to seed their business model. That is what happens with VC-backed companies. Hence the limited "free lunch" to selected developers but it isn't free since you are providing valuable real estate on your app for a rewards network but unlike ad networks you don't get a revenue share from user "click-thrus" but a fixed amount. So, the more successful your app is, the worse the deal is for you.

    Their business model is basically disrupting the in-app ad networks with a lead generation system of their own. Instead of displaying the ad in the app, they offer rewards (it is sort of like the "rewards" popups you get from direct marketeers when you purchase an item in some online stores). In return, they get the e-mail address that they can provide the brands to send the rewards to (and therefore get paid for). In a sense, they are an e-mail lead generation company for the brand companies with the "reward" as the bait.

    If you are a successful app, they should be paying you for that valuable real estate on your app. At this stage they are paying you before you are successful and so taking some risk and hence the evaluation process to see if you might be successful. On the other hand, if you do become successful, you are giving away the real estate for a fixed sum of money.

    I haven't seen the terms but you should make sure that you can remove that integration at any time after launch and not be tied to having it for some unreasonable period of time. If the former, then their business model is hosed as successful apps after having taken the $5000 earlier might threaten to pull it out unless they get paid more!

    Their hope, presumably, is that some initial success of this from app users liking the rewards, will create a pull from developers to have this integration where they don't have to pay for that real estate. If that doesn't happen, then it will turn out to be another dumb-VC funded company that folds after burning a lot of money.

    As a developer, I would be much more concerned with the privacy policies associated with the users providing the e-mail to get the reward and you as an app developer is partly responsible for that. There are two potential problems with this.

    One, developers are responsible for the privacy policies of the app with most developers taking the default privacy policy established by Apple. The privacy policy of the rewards network for the e-mail gathered from the popup may or may not be consistent with that (most likely it isn't) and can presumably change at any time without telling you.

    If that is the case, then you as a developer will need to either disclaim before you popup the rewards e-mail gathering that this is a third-party service and will/may be covered by its own privacy policy (preferably with a link to their privacy policy that people can read before sending their e-mail) or change your app privacy policy to be consistent with their current privacy policy which is impractical.

    Hopefully, their own popup does the former already within the popup but if what they display is not bundled with the app and is content that is fetched from their site at the time of display, then you don't have control over that content and the privacy policy can change at any time (which itself might violate Apple's policies for the app).

    In-app ads have a similar problem but the distinction between your app and the ad-banner is a bit more explicit in the traditional ads and they are just click-thru leads to an external site where the e-mail may be collected rather than collect it as part of the app which is what causes the problem.

    Otherwise, Apple has the rights (even if they may not enforce it uniformly) to throw your app out, if this system becomes a problem for them in any way.

    Two, if for whatever reason the e-mails provided by the users are abused by one or two brands and your customers get a lot of spam or other objectionable material, then you WILL get blamed (it just needs one user who has traced it to your app by using a unique address as many do). You can rationalize that the users are giving their e-mail voluntarily but that doesn't help if you start getting negative reviews for your app that users of the app will get spammed.

    Your app may also get a bad reputation IF the system itself gets negative publicity in the future for their practices like some of the direct marketing popups that you get after purchase at online stores that are scams (which is why they are going away).

    Since you don't have control over what happens to that e-mail of your users (regardless of what they promise will be their behavior now), you are taking a reputation risk when you enable this in your app. If it is an app with a limited shelf-life that you intend to throw away, perhaps but it is unlikely that such an app will be selected by them.

    The reputation and privacy policy risk you take and selling future potential of your app real estate for fixed money now is why it isn't entirely a "free lunch"

    I wouldn't worry about the legalese disclaimer of confidentiality in their terms. Lawyers are just protecting them from being sued later by a developer who claims that another developer with a similar idea and the same integration got the idea via this company (even without evidence) because it couldn't have happened in any other way! There is no way they can prevent the lawsuits if they had to provide confidentiality clauses for such promotions and their business wouldn't be funded if they did.

    I am not recommending for or against this service. Just providing my analysis that developers should be aware of and decide for themselves.

    Edited to add:
    Another consideration is that if the reward system (as they presumably hope) becomes a not insignificant reason for the success of your app, then you have become a hostage to their service. You may not be able to remove it without jeopardizing the app even if they change the terms later for integration or abuse the process.

    I can see how all this can work for benefit of all in the best case scenario with the best assumptions but I can also see many ways in which it can go downhill quickly and taking that $5000 might seem like a bad idea. Only you can decide for yourself.
     
  19. kunaalkiip

    kunaalkiip Member

    Mar 9, 2012
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    #19 kunaalkiip, Mar 10, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
    Thanks for your comments! Our goal is to give rewards to users, and when we first started out, we were chasing down emotion marketing budgets, which are typically spent with people handing out Red Bulls on street corners. We're looking to bring that money into achievement points in games and we'd rather have that money spent in new media in games and apps. The e-mail addresses aren't part of our business model, and e-mail is purely a medium of transport of rewards to a user. Also, we put our logo and our brand on the rewards and in the e-mails for the reward information, because we're trying to build a trust with users and developers!
     
  20. TouchDeveloper

    TouchDeveloper Active Member

    Feb 19, 2012
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    It may not be at this point, but assuming your VCs aren't dumb (and yes that is not always a good assumption), they have not given you money so that you cannot monetize that end-user acquisition further beyond sending that reward once or that you cannot provide that e-mail to your brand partners in the future. It is what happens after you build that initial trust that matters.

    Does your privacy policy state that the e-mail address will be deleted after sending that reward e-mail? If not, the above statements now are irrelevant.

    There are three questions you will need to answer for the careful developers.

    1. Where is the privacy policy for the use of these e-mail addresses that is part of the terms of acceptance by the developer? If there isn't one, then it would be risky for the developers to use your system for reasons in my earlier post.

    2. How do you guarantee that it will not change under the developer in the future while the system is still integrated?

    3. How can developers be consistent with your end-user privacy policy and be consistent with the privacy policy accepted by default or explicitly created by the developer for the app so that Apple doesn't find a reason to pull the app?

    It will be in your interests to think about these issues and be explicit about them if you haven't done so already already.
     

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