Free to Play isn't to blame, it's the consumer

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion and Questions' started by sivad, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. sivad

    sivad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    Before I'm burned at the stake, let me explain.. I've used the forums daily for a few years now and there is one thing that always blows me away. People will complain about free to play and then blast a premium games price point, and generally it's the same people.

    For instance, Radiation Island is a brilliant game, it's price was so cheap I didn't even look before I purchased, however, the past few forum posts show that people are complaining of lack of updates, or not enough content... It went on sale for .99 recently and people were arguing that it wasn't worth t because they beat the game in 10 hours or so.... This game by Atypical was a console quality game and a first of its kind for mobile in the survival first person genre a la Day Z or Rust.

    Why would a developer, large or indie, take s chance on a price when a large portion of the users will complain or "wait for the sale". I realize this isn't everyone and this is just s recent memory that bothered me, everyone screams they want a game with depth, content and originality, but if a dev dropped a game like that and priced it at 19.99, they prob wouldn't see half the downloads they need for a profit.

    If the same game were free, with a coin doubler or exp doubler for 2.99 and then optional IAP for extra gold to speed up the process to use in the market.... Which one is going to make more profit?

    I really think we need to step back and think about those things before just saying I hate free games and that it's ruining gaming... As it stands, f2p gaming is keeping some devs afloat that would have drowned on the premium boat.

    I love all types of games, premium, some free or whatever the case may be, I can see which way the market is trending and will continue to go. Because of how consumers view a $20 game as they do a free game, this will be the future of gaming.
     
  2. Dankrio

    Dankrio Well-Known Member
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    Jun 3, 2014
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    Totally agree.

    People reaction towards Monument Valley expansion was sad to behold. We reap what we sow.
     
  3. psj3809

    psj3809 Moderator

    Jan 13, 2011
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    Totally agree as well. Cheap people are ruining iOS gaming, as you say Radiation Island is a great game, how can someone moan when its 99c that they beat it after 11 hours of gameplay. The games ONE dollar ! Bargain

    I bought that the second it was released at full price, my thinking is i want devs to make as much money as possible so i'll always buy it on release price.

    Theres so much freemium i think due to all the cheapskates who wait for sales for $2 games etc.

    Monument Valley i was fine buying the expansion but yeah some peoples reaction due to possibly paying 2 dollars for the expansion was just embarassing.

    As you say some devs stay afloat due to F2P, its still crazy that some people seem to moan when a games 3 dollars and will wait for a sale but with freemium games they seem okay spending a chunk of money on IAP's

    For me personally theres still a lot of great premium games, already have 500+ plus games to play on my phone so i've got plenty to go through. I dont feel the app store is as good/as exciting as it was a few years back as there seemed to be quality games coming out every week.

    Still an amazing gaming platform though and i love seeing some of the upcoming previews of games. Promo code chasers (non stop ones, not just the odd one) and people waiting for sales 24/7 are the ones to blame for freemium in my view.

    But its funny when a game comes out for a dollar or two dollars and people still want to wait for 700 opinions or for a price drop ! Depressing
     
  4. Kenan2000

    Kenan2000 Well-Known Member

    Nov 25, 2013
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    Blame the kids with 800$ devices whom "are not able" to spend at least 10$ per month on good premium games.

    I absolutely agree with you and I still have hope,hope is something that never dies,I mean apple devices are getting more and more popular for gaming too so that probably means that a certain amount of people will spend money on premium games.
     
  5. sivad

    sivad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    And adding to the points mentioned by others, when a developer chooses to go premium, and you purchase the game, that is all the income they will see from that game. Unless the release a sequel to the game or add new content in the form of a dlc, which if the new content isn't offered for free the comments will rain down as, I already paid for this game once, why do I have to buy the additional content.... More than anything, that is why these premium games are hard for devs to support and keep people from getting bored.

    Free to play games continually update their games and pump content out because they have the option of adding new characters or new maps for free but to get them you must acquire them by gems or whatever pod currency they use. It's a very smart tactic to employ, give you something for free but leave something out there that's available but you must pay to attain t by a roulette or slot machine style mechanic. It's so very similar to gambling that it should be called such, and I mean who doesn't like to gamble every now and then ;)

    There's definitely room for both in the ever growing mobile world, but more and more it would seem that to make money and support a game through all the different devices and iOS changes that happen yearly, we will see the trend stay to free to play.

    I feel like we will continue to see premium games but new content premium games may be slot fewer. Premium will be more on the lines of reboots for companies trying to get some income out of old franchises like square enix and others...

    Just my opinion though fwiw
     
  6. JasonLL

    JasonLL Well-Known Member

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    #6 JasonLL, Aug 5, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
    I always thought Radiation Island entered into the App Store marketplace with too low of a price. I understand you don't want to turn consumers off of your product with too high of a price but if a high quality product is priced a couple of bucks it also sends the message that is what the game is truly worth. With Radiation Island they could have charged 9.99 and most wouldn't have any issue. My guess is they wanted to establish the game at a low price point and took a gamble that the tactic would generate enough interest to make up the cost and I hope they made some money off of the game.

    I know some people are discontent with SquareEnix pricing of some of their premiums but their bullish stance on higher prices compared to average App Store fare is commendable. They released some all time great games in the RPG (or Japanese RPG) genre and deserve to sell them above ball and cup prices. Although I do agree with the angry mob that Squeenix could give better support/communication to customers who will gladly pay for their premiums.

    Even great casual premium games such as Fishdom 3 or most Big Fish hidden object games are well worth the asking price, which is above a couple of dollars, for people into the match 3 or adventure/hidden object type of game since the good quality work that goes into the top games of those genres is obvious.
     
  7. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava Well-Known Member

    Jan 29, 2015
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    Define "cheap".

    People complain about premium games releasing for any price point above 99 cents (and will still wait for it to go free) but will drop tons of money on IAP for F2P.

    I don't get this at all.

    I'm with the OP, I don't care as long as the game is good. I really hate some of the cynical F2P strategies and stay away from certain games because of this. If there is no "game" there and it is just an endless skinner box wanting me to hit a button, and possibly pay to be able to hit it more often, I'm not going to play.

    That said, there have been some good F2P titles. There have also been some outstanding premium titles.

    I hate to say it, but I think we're in this mess because the cynical F2P tactics work and make more money. You've got developers practically begging for people to buy their $3 game while people are blowing through cash on IAP purchases.
     
  8. sivad

    sivad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    This is exactly the market that I mean, it has been created.

    It's not exactly people being cheap, it's more of s bait and switch than anything else.

    A price point of 4.99 is frowned upon but the same frowners will gladly buy a consumable 4.99 package to get a shot at a free spin on the wheel or a premium chest opening or door or what ever the mechanic is, and due to the gambler in a lot of people, if I didn't get a good draw this time, maybe I get it next time. Or if you did get a good draw, you are now feeling lucky and try again... Before you know it you have spent 10 dollars on chance but complained about a 4.99 game that you knew what you were going to get out of it...

    It's mind boggling to say the least
     
  9. dancj

    dancj Well-Known Member

    Jan 25, 2011
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    Do you have any evidence that the people who refuse to pay for premium are the same ones who complain about freemium?

    Personally I don't see the problem. Great games still exist and people can still find stuff to enjoy whether it's premium or freemium.

    I also don't thing anyone is being cheap. People who sponge off their friends without paying them back are cheap. People who don't pay much for iOS games are just responding to the market, and the market as it stands lets you play great games for little to no money.
     
  10. Hedron Engineer

    Hedron Engineer Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2015
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    The longer I have my iPhone, the more I am willing to pay for apps, the quality really is different. I really do like the sneak preview model though. Give me a taste for the game, and then charge me for the rest of it.


    Server games: I never understood why e.g. hero academy did not charge a monthly fee in return for ranked play with rank based match making. Would have been perfect. Keeps the servers running, matching competition keeps my interest, and you don't have to keep introducing new teams which runs the risk of unbalancing the game. Everybody's happy!
     
  11. Anonomation

    Anonomation 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    Ughhhhhh $2.99 is still to much. I'll just wait longer to buy this quality game. Might as well go and pay $15 in gems for Clash of Clans because that's obviously more worth it.


    Not to mention the people that protect RR3.
     
  12. ackmondual

    ackmondual Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2009
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    A podcast mentioned that there are 3 ways for devs to go with "sustainable pricing"...

    *) First, a word about free to play...
    Some people complained that not having a demo or shareware for apps was hurting devs. Folks didn't want to pay premium pricing just to try something out, only to find out it doesn't run, or 'it sucks'. FWIW, F2p lets folks test the waters and try out the games.

    Personally, I've played some f2p games without spending a cent (Field Runners, another similar tower defense game that uses snails and animals instead). There were some lousy ones I just ended up deleting within a few days... (e.g. Robot Unicorn Attack 2, Mole Escape, Temple Run 2). I've spent $$ on some, like Defense Of Fortune, Plants Vs. Zombies 2, Castlestorm. I've spent $5, $4, and $3 respectively. Roughly what I'd spend if it were "premium". I don't go crazy and spend $500 on gems/whatever. I get a good benefit without breaking the bank, and thank the devs at the same time.


    1) premium pricing
    However, "premium pricing" isn't what we think of it today. They say "whatever price you have in mind... triple it". When the AppStore first came out, apps costing $10 and $15 was NOT uncommon. At some point, this "race to the bottom" syndrome kicked in.
    These premium prices as is really don't encourage devs to make quality apps and keep them updated. Instead, it encourages to put out as many lower quality apps as possible (no time for updates) to make as much $$ as possible.

    I've heard folks saying maintenance is part of software development. It is, but in typical software shops, iOS, Android, Windows, web, like for businesses and government contract, the cost of such projects INCLUDE the cost of maintenance, so no1's straining there.

    And where did the notion that just because games are on mobile, they have to be a fraction of the cost of desktop or console counterparts? Those seem to be more reasonable prices, and what some indies charge on on non-mobile platforms.
    Even though I have Castlestorm for iOS and have played it for over a month now, I still went and bought it on Steam/PC for $15 (includes the 2 extra campaigns). Yes, it's relatively alot of cash, but... no stupid gems, Pearls, ads, and I get a nice 28" screen with mouse + keyboard :cool:


    2) subscription model
    Recurring fees to pay for producing new content, etc.

    Also to be able to charge for updates. I'm not talking about bug fixes, but new content. Currently, the only way around this is instead of releasing Software One v2.0, is to release Software Two v1.0. Now they need to support 2 apps, or abandon the first one.


    3) free to play
    You've guessed this one ;) A good # here is 4 million to be able to rake in enough cash from "whales". As a point of reference, Plants Vs. Zombies is claimed by Pop Cap to have 100 mil downloads.
     
  13. pillzhereish

    pillzhereish Well-Known Member

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    Last month, Downhill Supreme developer asked on FB whether people wanted their next game (Downhill Supreme 3) to be paid or free with ads. You can check for yourselves, people overwhelmingly voted "free with ads" with a couple of unbelievable guys who said "free without ads".

    So when I read that the consumer is to blame, I have to agree.
     
  14. iAjent

    iAjent Active Member

    Dec 12, 2011
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    I'm kind of torn on the matter. On one hand F2P games can be very fair (the most recent and fairest that springs to mind is Ire). On the other hand some are clearly designed with the casino mentality in mind and are chasing the money. Personally, I quite like AB2 despite some of the more irksome F2P traits. If it was a paid game like the previous AB games I would probably prefer it, but that's just me (and I'm definitely not the sort to complain about premium games, having bought Final Fantasy's, Monster Hunter and Xcom's and the like...).

    For me the problem is that a majority of F2P games are chasing money and the gameplay is sacrificed. Again, for me, if a game is F2P I am very cautious and generally won't even download unless it is something I have a previous interest in (comic hero themed or angry birds for eg.).

    I do see how the 'race to the bottom' has affected devs though. It's a pain, because I'd much rather pay PSN type prices (£5-£15) for a game than constantly worrying about wether I'm going to have to put more money into a F2P to stay relevant and then worrying about how much I've already put into it (ie. should I exceed that £5-£15 point, is the game worth it/value for money and should I consider stop playing because the game is now costing ME to much to play? - a very bad reason to have to stop playing a game). I do agree that if devs took this approach that would please me (personally), then they would be pricing themselves out of competition.

    It's only the larger devs like 2K and Square Enix that can price their games above £10 and everything still be OK.
     
  15. Grundlehawk

    Grundlehawk New Member

    Jun 22, 2015
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    A friend of mine made a comment recently which I will relate to iOS monetization. He said, he can find music for free online easily, but he would rather pay the artists for their music because it tells them he wants them to make more! If we starve our developers for money, literally, they starve and can't continue making awesome games to play. I am not so well off that I can snub them nor can I make my own games. I fully support the efforts to find monetization models that work. Haters gonna hate, and developers should care less about the haters and more about the real feedback that their game is good : consumer dollars. What did TA say about Angy Birds 2, something like before their review was posted MILLIONS of downloads had already happened? Clearly the demand far outweighs the hate. Keep up the good work friends.
     
  16. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
    Staff Member Patreon Silver Patreon Gold

    20m downloads as of this morning, in its first week. For sake of comparison, Marvel: Contest of Champions was downloaded 40m times this year.
     
  17. sanderbos

    sanderbos Member

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    #17 sanderbos, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
    Paying for a freemium game can still be an option

    Even if you go for free to play, you could still offer an option to unlock everything at a premium price. So you can start playing for free, there are some in game things you can buy for a dollar like there is now, and then say for $9.99 you could remove with all the free-2-play crap like timers from a game.

    With that model you can still bring your games to the masses (as the price to entry is free), people complaining about the f2p model (like me) can be made quiet because there is a way out of it for them, and the 10 dollars means that if somebody pays up it puts significant money in the bank.

    Why this cannot happen: Because the free2play model is malicious, and is directed at attracting whales. The financial model is getting a very small percentage of players to put in way more then 10 dollars, so you can't have a upper limit to what people can spend.

    It's still what I would like to see though. My favorite current model that some games still use is free-with-ads, with an option to pay to remove the ads. This still allows people to sample the game for free, and then if they like it to pay for it. But I once read (I cannot remember what game it was) that for one game that model was offered as a service to the players, but it actually cost the game makers money because the ad-revenue made from frequent players was higher than the $1 - 30% revenue of the unlock.

    (As already said above I hate free-2-play, besides the maliciousness of whale-hunting the main reason I hate it is that it means that the game design must put making-a-sale at a central place in the gameplay, whereas with money up front the actual game design can focus on (fun) game design)
     
  18. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
    Staff Member Patreon Silver Patreon Gold

    This has been proven time and time again to just straight up not work. If that's what people wanted, Strange Flavour's "Play Nice" system would've been a wild success. Instead, it bombed so hard they're stripping it from their games. That's only the most recent example of a veritable graveyard of developers who have tried to implement IAP systems based on what people say they want. Sadly, people say one thing, then vote with their wallet in completely different ways, which is sort of the whole point of sivad's post here- The chronic free to play complainers typically also are the ones who wait for price drops, want eternal updates, and other incredibly unrealistic things.
     
  19. curtisrshideler

    curtisrshideler Well-Known Member
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    I definitely agree that it's the consumer who is forcing the free-to-play model. And that model is probably attracting more people to gaming because they wouldn't otherwise spend money on games. If consumers were consistent in their buying of premium apps instead of seeking out the best of the free apps, then the premium model would have probably continued thriving.

    Personally, I have both types of apps on my devices. I enjoy the premium ones more, and don't mind paying full price. However, I grew up as a mobile gamer, and am used to spending my hard-earned money on that type of entertainment.

    However, I know quite a few older people who did not grow up on gaming who were more inclined to get into it by downloading free apps. And I know a lot of people younger than me who have gotten into gaming with the rise of free-to-play. And that makes sense, since many are too young to work. And so, the market gets saturated with free apps, developers try to balance payment models with gameplay, and apps began appealing to even the most die-hard premium-game gamers, myself included to an extent.

    And with free-to-play as the new normal in video games, it brings with it a new paradigm and mindset in gaming. Instead of firing up Final Fantasy VII to play through the story, we can fire up Final Fantasy Record Keeper and play through streamlined battles from that story. But the real game is collecting all of those characters and weapons/armor that the original story has in it. And then upgrading them. And planning out your gaming sessions to know that you can only fight a set number of battles before you have to quit, spend currency, or spend money on currency to recharge something to continue pursuing that dangling carrot. The collecting, Gatcha system, and multiple currencies of that game and many more have caught on with a lot of gamers. And I'm trying to get into it. I'm trying to tell myself that it's fun, and not to think about it all being pointless once a server is shut off.

    Probably, my biggest problem is that I like stories, I love feeling nostalgic, and my gaming sessions are usually the length that others spend on a console. I just like doing it on my porch with a pipe or at a Starbucks with coffee. So, I guess I basically like playing console games on the go, which is what mobile gaming used to be. My GBA got so much use in college in between classes.

    But, thankfully, if enough of us story-driven, premium-game-loving gamers continue to support developers with our money and time, we will hopefully still have some premium games on the App Store to purchase for years to come. And, over time, I'm sure the free-to-play model will evolve and continue to become more balanced. Maybe years from now, when big console games like Call of Duty get released, they'll be free downloads where you'll just purchase gear, energy, health, ammunition, troops, vehicles, etc.
     
  20. curtisrshideler

    curtisrshideler Well-Known Member
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    If developers could make the same amount of money from free-to-play and premium, I wonder which gameplay style they would prefer to make. That would be a great article to read because I would love to hear some developers weigh-in on whether certain mechanics are added to solely make a profit or if they are added because they think it will add to the enjoyment of the gameplay.
     

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