Universal Spaceward Ho! (4x Strategy by Ariton Games/Delta Tao)

Discussion in 'iPhone and iPad Games' started by Jaklar, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    As far as I think: None ... they are just really good and they use different ways and strategies!
     
  2. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
    2,493
    14
    38
    Burlingame CA
    There's no strategy/simulation game that's ever been competitive with humans without handicaps. AI techniques can be competitive with humans for combinatorial games like chess, but they aren't competitive for wide-ranging simulation games like this. There are really only two possibilities: the computer players get some handicaps/advantages, or they are easy to beat. Hopefully the former. The real trick in making a good single-player game is to choose the handicaps for the computer opponents well, so they create an interesting challenge without being overwhelming or completely changing the game (e.g., huge starting forces so they only way to survive at the beginning is to avoid conflict).
     
  3. christophercotton

    christophercotton Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    127
    0
    0
    I believe there might be some "information" handicaps, though I'll have to check with the person who wrote the AI on exactly what. High intelligence AIs will definitely prefer to beat up on humans :) (kill all humans!)

    The other option is if you allow them to be "Best Buddies" they share information with each other.
     
  4. christophercotton

    christophercotton Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    127
    0
    0
    They have different strategies with regards to the level of intelligence, and there is a definite progression and set of strategies based on the levels. This makes it easier to beat up on the lower level ones, while still having more difficulty with the larger ones.

    And yes, I do think the very high end intelligence gets an information handicap. Though I need to check to see what else it gets. I have found the hardest ones quite hard to beat. Though sometimes I can.
     
  5. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    #105 Mythbuster, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
    @David: Sorry that is not correct. I studied informatics and I programmed several games / search engines ... SpaceHo is not that complex for building a strong AI without cheating ... the game parameter are very limited!

    Games like Go are much more complicate and right now they are getting stronger and stronger ... or take a look at backgammon: With neural network programming (like JellyFish) you get a program that beats even the human master ... without cheating or big databases ...
     
  6. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
    2,493
    14
    38
    Burlingame CA
    Well, I know a lot more about this than you do. There have certainly been advances in AI, but backgammon programs use combinatorial search and Monte Carlo simulation, which is effective for games like backgammon with a limited search space, a small, discrete set of legal moves, considerable randomness, and not much long-term strategy. (You don't have to decide what strategy you're going to pursue in a backgammon game when you make your first move, because what happens is going to depend on the dice anyway.) Even Go has a very small search space compared to exploration/simulation type strategy games, and yet the best computer players are very, very far from the best human players. No one has ever programmed any game like this one to play anywhere near as well as a skilled human player. That is simply a fact.

    Anyway, I appreciate the actual information from others about how the game actually plays, and I'm looking forward to having the time to try it myself.
     
  7. athros

    athros Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    239
    13
    18
    DevOps
    Colorado
    And your background is?
     
  8. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    Well ... I know this game since around 15 years or more ... and I played endless games ... and I can promise you I had never the feeling that the AI cheats! ;)

    Even if they have at the very high IQ settings a handycap ... you don't feel it ... and that is the most important thing ...
     
  9. ArtNJ

    ArtNJ Well-Known Member

    Jul 13, 2009
    3,212
    29
    48
    New Jersey
    #109 ArtNJ, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
    Well, I never had a mac, so I dont know that I every played version 5. I could be wrong on this, but I think 4 was the last one released on the PC.

    The highly simplified nature of force placement in Ho should indeed make it easier to build a strong AI without cheating, but that doesnt mean its easy. Look at Risk. Risk has a similarly simple system of force distribution, but no one has published good AI. This just isnt a game remotely like Civilization or Master of Orion, and I'm sure that with enough time and effort, killer AI *could be* developed, but that doesnt mean it would be cost effective to do it.

    Anyway, I always felt that Ho cheated quite a bit at the high levels. Anyway, glad to hear that folks are not feeling that way.
     
  10. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
    2,493
    14
    38
    Burlingame CA
    Hmm. I don't think credentials are very useful here, but I have a PhD in math, I studied computer science at MIT, I was one of the first software engineers at Google, my boss was the author of the world's leading AI textbook. I think I have a fair idea about what's possible.

    On the other hand, I haven't played the game, I shouldn't really be expressing an opinion about this game without playing it. I know that computer opponents can't play games like Civilization or MOO anywhere near as well as humans. But maybe this game is simpler/different and the AI can do better, I shouldn't venture an opinion without trying it first.

    Anyway, thanks for the responses. Giving the AI information advantages seems like potentially a reasonable compromise (predicting what the opponent is going to do is one of the most difficult problems in this sort of game).
     
  11. christophercotton

    christophercotton Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    127
    0
    0
    Well what are you waiting for! Definitely go play it and let me know. Be sure to watch the Basic Gameplay video. It shows you the basics of the interface.
     
  12. athros

    athros Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    239
    13
    18
    DevOps
    Colorado
    I was more curious about your background than anything. You made a pretty strong statement, and I wondered what was backing that up. I hope you didn't take offense, because I didn't mean to give any. :)

    I have no doubt that the AI has some level of cheats built in at high levels, even in Spaceward Ho!. There was an article on AI in 4x games a while back..I'll have to run it down again.
     
  13. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    #113 Mythbuster, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
    @David: You have a huge advantage, the language. English is just my 5. language so I get fast in trouble to write complex things.

    But: Monte Carlo is a search logic in Go (as far as I know, SmartGo for iOS uses it ... I am a Betatester for several Go Programs, also for SmartGo), not in Backgammon. As I wrote, JellyFish uses a complete neral Network ... but nevertheless. I know, that games like Civ cannot beat a human player. I love intelligent board games due the fact that my real life IQ is 146 ... that is why I like chess ... oh, in my 'younger years' I was in the world champion chip team of chess programming and it was a great time ... I was also at the human world chess champion TM in the team of G. K. ... that is a long, long time ago ... 1990 .... :D
    Now I am just a writer and author ... ;)

    Most games do bore me because they are too easy to beat or you see that they are cheating. I prefer to play vs. a 'real AI' 1:1 ...

    As I wrote before, I found that the AI in SpaceHo uses different strategies to win. It is interesting that they can even change their strategy during a game when they realize that you are ahead.

    Due the fact that the game parameter very limited I really think it is possible to play strong for an AI without cheating.

    I think, you should give it a try ... it is not that expensive ... and give a report .... and if you are that good I am waiting for the MP update to meet you online ...
     
  14. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    Well, most 4x games are more complex and have more variable parameter. Spaceward Ho itself is very simple ... but do not understand me wrong: Simple does in this case not mean boring or easy to master ... :)
     
  15. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
    2,493
    14
    38
    Burlingame CA
    Well, that's sort of true, but backgammon computer programs are only strong because they can use Monte Carlo simulations (playing lots and lots of games) to train the neural nets. Without extensive training, the neural network can't play well at all. This is one of the things that's hard to do in simulation type games---if you just "play out" the position, with an algorithm that doesn't understand the strategy, then the result is meaningless. It's also hard to distill the right inputs to the neural net---in a game like backgammon the state of the game is so simple that it's fairly obvious what they are.

    That said, I still should actually try the game. Soon. I did buy it already.
     
  16. athros

    athros Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    239
    13
    18
    DevOps
    Colorado
    Oh, believe me, I know. I'm still struggling with it in some ways, but that's more due to UI issues than anything, and my hang ups with other 4X games (like MoO 2, Starbase Orion and the newer ones.)
     
  17. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere
    That is indeed correct ... JF uses MC to train it's brain. :)

    I am sure, you will not regret the purchase if you like games like that ... ;)
     
  18. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Well-Known Member
    Patreon Bronze

    May 19, 2010
    2,493
    14
    38
    Burlingame CA
    For $4.99, I won't regret the purchase even if I never get around to playing it.
     
  19. christophercotton

    christophercotton Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    127
    0
    0
    If you have UI issues, please let us know about them. The 1.0.2 version we just released will update some of the issues people have had, and we are working to redoing some of the design to be better. The big issue was that we have had people who have played the Mac version quite well and now are getting more feedback on how it is for a new player.
     
  20. Mythbuster

    Mythbuster Well-Known Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    1,252
    15
    38
    Journalist
    In the middle of nowhere

Share This Page