Steve Job's "Thoughts on Flash"

Very interesting read! Glad he shed some light on it, though.

 

My thoughts on this (also posted on cgtalk's thread on this topic...)

Steve Jobs plays missinformation games with the non-geeks/non-techies or half-informed people. While his words sound reasonable, there is not much reality behind them when speaking of Apple's way to operate business. He might pretend to do everything for the customers best, but this whole affair is a power game - nothing more..

HTML5/Canvas will - IF it ever will completly take off - be ready to be comparable to Flash's possibilities in 3-4 yrs. Video might be good earlier, but Video for Flash is only a fracture of Flash's power. Performance in HTML5 see's the same Virtual Machine limitations as Flash has seen through all it's lifetime, so HTML5 is there were Flash was 5yrs ago. But HTML5 is in danger of different implementation quality and depth through different Browser providers, so there is danger that HTML5 falls into the same pit as SVG/VRML for example. The other things Jobs talks about ( slow adoption rate of OS features when using middleware) might have some point, but to such a degree in Games (my area of mobile interest using Unity to develop). Jobs really is the perfect example of an NLP infested salesman: speak honey, do the opposite...


Here some blogs to bring reality back to the topic a bit...

http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/2010/04/29/snow-jobs/

And here a blog entry from a game dev (flash mostly), of course totally biased pro flash ;-), but don't miss the link to "the enormous deficiencies" when coding with Html5/Canvas in it's current incarnation....

http://www.8bitrocket.com/newsdisplay.aspx?newspage=40391

 

Totally agree with him.

Interesting point also about flash not being suited to touch interfaces.

 

how come this could be ?

Flash has all in it, the current coded flash pieces just do not make use of the touch features, because it's just started on mobile devices to play a bigger role (well except on iDevices). Flash can do every eventhandling which ever might be required for touch devices, but of course the Flash applications have to be coded to make use of Touch Input, which current Flash Application of course lack, because they were targeted at Desktops (mouse/keyboard). This is the most silly argument against Flash ever....

 

While it's a weak argument against Flash in general, it is certainly a strong argument as to why Flash support isn't the most important thing in the world for the iDevices. Video, media, and even games can be created through open technologies that the devices support and games and "rich media" websites are all geared towards mouse/keyboard.

As there isn't a whole lot of touch-sensitive websites out there, there's little point starting to create these with a locked technology that's not supported by one of the biggest touch-platforms...

 

I think Steve Jobs makes some good points about open web standards (as a web developer, I tend to hate Flash for the same reasons), but his justification for banning it, along with a lot of other great tools, is reminicent of Microsoft's anti-competetive practices.

Also, the "sixth, and most important reason" is a complete lie. Sub-standard programmers write sub-standard software, regardless of tools. And besides, he only addresses the "you must use Apple's tools" part of the agreement change. What about "you can't use any scripting but javascript, and if you use javascript you have to use Mobile Safari's implementation of the webkit javascript parser"? This has nothing to do with "sub-standard software" and everything to do with banning Lua and other scripting languages (not to mention BASIC, like in the C64 emulator), to somehow prevent people from running stuff on the iPhone that Apple doens't have a final say over.

Apple's the new Microsoft, only somehow they're a lot better at public relations and looking hip. But because of this, and how the App Store is run, I think the iPhone is a sinking ship. Steve Job's wouldn't have to write lengthy articles defending his position if it weren't.

 

Sorry - talking about Appstore/iDevice and "flash is a locked technology" in the same sentence is a little bit faaaaaaaar stretched. Of course Flash is not the "most important" thing to come to mobile devices, but that in no way is a reason to be that walling in as apple/jobs currently behaves. The reason for those actions against flash are plain and simple fear of losing control (which of course is understandable from a business POV). All things Steve talks about are honey-coated excuses and pure NLP opinion spinning efforts...

 

Am I the only feels that it's morally wrong for a corporation to declare what their hardware can and cannot run for anything other than purely technical reasons? Flash works on the iPhone. It's debatable how buggy it is, or how good it is for the advancement of web technology. What's not debatable is that Flash is in demand. Like it or hate it, many people use Flash.

Apple has abused the power of their TOS to force their opinion on its customers. No matter what Steve Jobs believes, nothing good can come of that.

 

Nope, not a silly argument at all. As a developer in BOTH Flash and Mobile Devices, I can tell you that Steve Jobs is exactly correct. My initial attempts to use Flash on Mobile Devices almost a decade ago came up with these exact problems: Flash is not designed for touch interfaces. Sure, there are workarounds, but it is ridiculous to think that the vast number of Flash that is available on the Web will work on mobile devices.

Need proof? Pick up a PSP and navigate to any number of Flash driven content. Need proof of its lacking in touch interfaces? Pick up a PocketPC/Windows Mobile device and navigate to any number of Flash-driven content.

It simply doesn't work. To think that we are actually missing anything with the CURRENT content is ludicrous and shows a gross misunderstanding of how both technologies work. Yes, content can be modified to work with mobile devices, but the underlying problems are still there, especially in regard to performance. Which is pathetic in the most optimistic sense.

 

No, Flash is not in demand. It is widely used, but that does not mean it is in demand any more than HTML is 'in demand'. It is a method to bring content to the user- nothing more. I have NEVER ONCE been on my iPhone and said 'gee, I wish I could view Flash Content'. This shows a distinct line between what I choose and what is forced upon me.

Flash is forced on me, I don't go seeking Flash. As a developer, I realize this distinction, and the content is what truly matters.

Lua hasn't been banned as far as I know- new apps using Lua Wax have been approved since the change. I haven't checked in the last two days- maybe something changed?

I do agree that sub-standard programmers will write sub-standard software, regardless of the tools. There is a lot of CRAP in the app store, and I refuse to believe it is all due to the tools and frameworks that are used. From personal experience, programmers are the single WORST designers, which is why we see crap like GIMP trying to compete with Photoshop (crappy UI for how many years now?). There are exceptions of course, so nobody should take offense.

Furthermore, the CRAP in the app store doesn't contain Flash, so the CRAP will exist regardless. I think the Fart App could have been done in any number of languages/frameworks- it certainly could be done in pure C/Obj-C

 

Enough people have for multiple big name sites to post articles about every bit of Apple vs Flash info that comes their way.

 

Flickitty, I agree: it's the content that matters. But, as things stand, there happens to be a lot of good content that utilizes Flash. I can list dozens of high-quality Flash games. Without tools that allow their developers to easily bring them to the iPhone, there are good odds that most of them will never be ported. So, nevermind what we'd like as developers for a second, let's put ourselves in the shoes of the typical consumer.

As a consumer, the grim reality is that because Steve Jobs said so, I can't play my favorite Flash games on the iPhone. Why is a TOS agreement being used to dictate what I can and can't do? This is an abusive way to use a TOS. If Steve Jobs wakes up one day and decides that rap is inferior music, and that users who listen to rap on their iDevice tarnish Apple's super-cool image, does he have the power to modify his platform and user agreements to discourage his customers from listening to rap? You betcha. Should he use the power that he has in this way? In my opinion, definitely not.

What I guess I'm trying to say here is this. I'm not a fan of Flash. I'm not trying to defend Adobe in any way. I just think that as a consumer, that choice should belong to me, and every other consumer out there -- not to a handful of people with obviously biased opinions.

 

There is a certain degree of truth to the idea that intermediate development kits tend to breed crappier programs. Mainly it's because those who don't have quite the acumen to learn a full programming language but can manage semi-construction-kit type development environments don't usually have the foundation to know how to write a good game in the first place. If they lack the skills to wrap their head around a full development environment then they are usually lacking in some of the associated skills that make for good games. Not always, but it's the rule more than the exception.

Of course, there are some genius programmers that nevertheless think like engineers and lack the creativity for good game design too, so it goes both ways.

To me, as a development environment for games, Flash kind of sits in the middle between a full-blown language and a drag-and-drool design environment, which is actually not a bad place to be as it requires enough technical expertise to get the programming aspect of it down, and enough creative chutzpah to tie the bells on. But Flash has its limitations, and thus has earned a certain niche in the gaming world as a good environment in which to program casual games with simpler graphics.

That said, I don't really miss it on the iPhone. It'd be nice to have it, but it almost never factors into my web browsing habits on the go. As far as I'm concerned, while HTML5 might not be as advanced as Flash, it will get there, and it has the advantage of being an open standard that will gain widespread adoption without the need for plugins. It won't kill Flash, not for years anyway, but I can envision many sites switching to, or at least offering as an alternative, HTML5-based sites for rich content.

 

What's funny is that Adobe has noted that there are already over 100 Flash apps build for iphone using a pre-release build of the new Flash Pro CS5 SDK - approved by Apple and available in the AppStore.

This doesn't mean that Apple won't find a way to arbitrarily ban such apps in the future.

 

I dont mind Flash as a Format, but would i want all those flash games suddenly appearing in the store, no, or would i want the store ruined because people can just go and play flash games through the browser, again no.

So even though i dont agree with Apples methods in some way, as someone making games for their platform, i am glad Flash is stopped.

The only time as a user i have wanted flash on my Iphone was Flash video to see the Formula one on the BBC site.

Yeah i had heard some Flash apps had already been on the store.

 

This is complete fallacy. The reason you can't play your favorite Flash games on iPhone isn't because Steve Jobs says so, it is because the developer themselves have failed to go through the proper channels to PORT the game to iPhone. Nobody is preventing Flash apps from being ported.

The article clearly states "In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it." (Jobs)

This seems like a reasonable response, and you would think that Adobe could easily comply. The problem is, Adobe can't or won't.

So even if you could have access to your favorite Flash game on iPhone, there is no evidence to support that it would be functional or even playable.

 

If I may be so blunt, I think you along with many others are missing the bigger point here. This is not about Flash. This is about what you are allowed to do with a tool that you have been sold. As a piece of hardware, I love the iPhone. The TOS however has become something malicious, and I really, really, really don't like it. I feel that Apple is using the legal powers of the TOS in a way that is immoral.

I disagree with you when you say that developers have "failed" to port Flash games through the proper channels. What exactly IS a proper channel? Until this latest TOS change, many third party tools were not only considered "proper," they were endorsed by Apple. Now their use is suddenly suspect. This detrimentally effects many indie developers who were far into any profitable project, employing any of those third-party tools. With that in mind, do you think Apple aims to do right by developers?

Steve Jobs' quote on the performance of Flash is a very poor excuse, given that Apple allowed over 100 Flash apps into the store, don't you think? I assume that these apps passed Apple's tests, just like any other, and were found to work well enough to meet standards.

 

I know what you mean. You're missing a key point, though - Apple doesn't make the law. The TOS provides them no legal powers whatsoever, it simply allows them to set the terms under which they'll provide a service.

What does this mean? It means Apple now needs to watch their step. The more they try to impose draconian restriction on their store, the more developers and users are going to turn to the jailbreaking community and Cydia - which for Apple, means a loss of both revenue and control.

Apple's vendor lock-in only helps communities like Cydia to thrive, which in turn makes it ever-simpler for dissatisfied customers and devs to turn their backs to Apple's ecosystem whenever they like, without needing to buy new hardware. No doubt that's not what Apple wanted, and possibly not a scenario they'd even envisaged, but the fact remains that right now it's easier for an iPhone user to turn to the competition than it is for a user of pretty much any other smartphone. In effect, a subset of Apple's own users has become its closest direct competition (on the software side of things anyway).

Make no mistake, as a vendor of a closed system that is a very bad position to be in, since it means that there's always a proportion of users of your hardware using a competing service, and that proportion can very easily increase if customers are even the slightest bit dissatisfied with your own service. There's nothing Apple can do to stop that, and they know it; it's the reason they're so scared of jailbreaking.
Locking users into their hardware/OS is ineffective, because competing services like Cydia now exist within the confines of that system. Apple also has no legal recourse to shut these down since users are perfectly entitled to write and run software on any OS of their choosing, and reverse-engineer it if necessary to do so (any EULA that tries to state otherwise is invalid - EULAs do not override laws), and there's more than enough examples of legitimate uses on Cydia to prevent Apple from using the excuse that it "incites copyright infringement", as has usually been the case for console modchips.

(Ironically enough, Apple themselves should probably be thankful that there's no law allowing them to take action against jailbreakers, because between their questionable app store TOS and their patent abuse, right now it's the only thing standing between them and being involved in monopolistic practices.)

 

Yeah, but Apple is getting way better at stopping jailbreaking. Look at MC 3.1.3 models. All non-jailbreakable. First time, too.