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  #11  
Old 03-09-2012, 02:52 PM
kunaalkiip kunaalkiip is offline
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Originally Posted by racingspider View Post
What does 'integrate' Kiip with the app mean?

Is that an icon, splash screen, nag messages, ads? What sort of extra things will Kiip be doing on the chosen apps?
Kiip is a rewards network. So we work with top brands to give your players real rewards at achievement points within your game. We've partnered up with brands like Pepsi, and Best Buy in the past, and are currently running an exciting campaign with Skittles. We know game developers care about user experience, and we believe that too, so we are as unobtrusive as possible.

When a player gets a high score, for example, they would get a small pop up at the bottom of their screen for 10 seconds telling them they've received a reward, when they tap it, an HTML5 pop up (so they don't leave your game) and will allow them to enter their e-mail and they will receive the reward in their e-mail.

PM me your e-mail and I can send you a pdf with some visuals and we can go over it on a phone call and I can answer any questions you have, as well.
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  #12  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:12 PM
david_loqheart david_loqheart is offline
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"any other information or materials provided by you to Kiip (collectively, the “Materials”) are provided without any expectation that they will be held in confidence or that Kiip will be in any way restricted with respect to such Materials, any contrary indication of restrictions outside these Terms notwithstanding."

I TOO am very concerned about this language. Considering the rampant cloning going on by larger studios and publishers.
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2012, 09:14 PM
kunaalkiip kunaalkiip is offline
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Originally Posted by david_loqheart View Post
"any other information or materials provided by you to Kiip (collectively, the “Materials”) are provided without any expectation that they will be held in confidence or that Kiip will be in any way restricted with respect to such Materials, any contrary indication of restrictions outside these Terms notwithstanding."

I TOO am very concerned about this language. Considering the rampant cloning going on by larger studios and publishers.
Hey David...

I understand. We really wish we didn't have to put it, but as I said before, having VC money makes our lawyers have to put this in.

But just to be a bit more clear. We don't require submissions to include any code or anything of the sort. All we need is a presentation with a general visual overview of the concept behind the game, information on the team, and your monetization plans. We keep the information secure and only show the presentations to the judges of the Build Fund.

I know your concern may still be there, but if you would like to get to know us better before submitting, feel free to contact me at kunaal@kiip.me.
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  #14  
Old 03-10-2012, 02:38 AM
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Hercule Hercule is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunaalkiip View Post
Hey David...

I understand. We really wish we didn't have to put it, but as I said before, having VC money makes our lawyers have to put this in.

But just to be a bit more clear. We don't require submissions to include any code or anything of the sort. All we need is a presentation with a general visual overview of the concept behind the game, information on the team, and your monetization plans. We keep the information secure and only show the presentations to the judges of the Build Fund.

I know your concern may still be there, but if you would like to get to know us better before submitting, feel free to contact me at kunaal@kiip.me.
Your lawyers are your bosses ?

Big publisher with 100 times more money to loose and a long track record of good buisness ethic, still signed NDA.
You ask small developper, without legal battle resources, to trust a young VC compagny, without a long track record in the business. Well...

I don't know your company, and you may be totally trustable. Your lawyers may have just given you bad advices.
But these termes is a big bad red sign in your defavor.

Now dev are totally aware of the situation. And at least they can take their decisions with all informations.
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  #15  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:17 AM
kunaalkiip kunaalkiip is offline
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Originally Posted by Hercule View Post
You ask small developper, without legal battle resources, to trust a young VC compagny, without a long track record in the business. Well...

I don't know your company, and you may be totally trustable. Your lawyers may have just given you bad advices.
But these termes is a big bad red sign in your defavor.

Now dev are totally aware of the situation. And at least they can take their decisions with all informations.
We are not a VC company, and we have no interest in building games ourselves (nor do we have the time). If you look at our site, we are a rewards network, and we're giving away $5,000 each to 20 indie developers for games that they use on our network. We are not in the same business as developers, and I hope you understand that. We want to help you with our rewards network in a win/win situation. And with our build fund, we only need your concept, team, and how you will monetize. We only partner with developers, and mostly indie developers.
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  #16  
Old 03-10-2012, 12:12 PM
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Hercule Hercule is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunaalkiip View Post
We are not a VC company, and we have no interest in building games ourselves (nor do we have the time). If you look at our site, we are a rewards network, and we're giving away $5,000 each to 20 indie developers for games that they use on our network. We are not in the same business as developers, and I hope you understand that. We want to help you with our rewards network in a win/win situation. And with our build fund, we only need your concept, team, and how you will monetize. We only partner with developers, and mostly indie developers.
Ok then. Good luck.
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  #17  
Old 03-10-2012, 01:15 PM
VRPgames VRPgames is offline
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I think it's a new way of scam. Free cheese can only be found in a mousetrap.
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  #18  
Old 03-10-2012, 02:41 PM
TouchDeveloper TouchDeveloper is offline
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Originally Posted by VRPgames View Post
I think it's a new way of scam. Free cheese can only be found in a mousetrap.
I have no affiliation with this company or any such company nor am I planning to use their network but this does seem like a legit business model. Whether it will succeed or not is a different issue.

They are spending this money on "customer acquisition" to seed their business model. That is what happens with VC-backed companies. Hence the limited "free lunch" to selected developers but it isn't free since you are providing valuable real estate on your app for a rewards network but unlike ad networks you don't get a revenue share from user "click-thrus" but a fixed amount. So, the more successful your app is, the worse the deal is for you.

Their business model is basically disrupting the in-app ad networks with a lead generation system of their own. Instead of displaying the ad in the app, they offer rewards (it is sort of like the "rewards" popups you get from direct marketeers when you purchase an item in some online stores). In return, they get the e-mail address that they can provide the brands to send the rewards to (and therefore get paid for). In a sense, they are an e-mail lead generation company for the brand companies with the "reward" as the bait.

If you are a successful app, they should be paying you for that valuable real estate on your app. At this stage they are paying you before you are successful and so taking some risk and hence the evaluation process to see if you might be successful. On the other hand, if you do become successful, you are giving away the real estate for a fixed sum of money.

I haven't seen the terms but you should make sure that you can remove that integration at any time after launch and not be tied to having it for some unreasonable period of time. If the former, then their business model is hosed as successful apps after having taken the $5000 earlier might threaten to pull it out unless they get paid more!

Their hope, presumably, is that some initial success of this from app users liking the rewards, will create a pull from developers to have this integration where they don't have to pay for that real estate. If that doesn't happen, then it will turn out to be another dumb-VC funded company that folds after burning a lot of money.

As a developer, I would be much more concerned with the privacy policies associated with the users providing the e-mail to get the reward and you as an app developer is partly responsible for that. There are two potential problems with this.

One, developers are responsible for the privacy policies of the app with most developers taking the default privacy policy established by Apple. The privacy policy of the rewards network for the e-mail gathered from the popup may or may not be consistent with that (most likely it isn't) and can presumably change at any time without telling you.

If that is the case, then you as a developer will need to either disclaim before you popup the rewards e-mail gathering that this is a third-party service and will/may be covered by its own privacy policy (preferably with a link to their privacy policy that people can read before sending their e-mail) or change your app privacy policy to be consistent with their current privacy policy which is impractical.

Hopefully, their own popup does the former already within the popup but if what they display is not bundled with the app and is content that is fetched from their site at the time of display, then you don't have control over that content and the privacy policy can change at any time (which itself might violate Apple's policies for the app).

In-app ads have a similar problem but the distinction between your app and the ad-banner is a bit more explicit in the traditional ads and they are just click-thru leads to an external site where the e-mail may be collected rather than collect it as part of the app which is what causes the problem.

Otherwise, Apple has the rights (even if they may not enforce it uniformly) to throw your app out, if this system becomes a problem for them in any way.

Two, if for whatever reason the e-mails provided by the users are abused by one or two brands and your customers get a lot of spam or other objectionable material, then you WILL get blamed (it just needs one user who has traced it to your app by using a unique address as many do). You can rationalize that the users are giving their e-mail voluntarily but that doesn't help if you start getting negative reviews for your app that users of the app will get spammed.

Your app may also get a bad reputation IF the system itself gets negative publicity in the future for their practices like some of the direct marketing popups that you get after purchase at online stores that are scams (which is why they are going away).

Since you don't have control over what happens to that e-mail of your users (regardless of what they promise will be their behavior now), you are taking a reputation risk when you enable this in your app. If it is an app with a limited shelf-life that you intend to throw away, perhaps but it is unlikely that such an app will be selected by them.

The reputation and privacy policy risk you take and selling future potential of your app real estate for fixed money now is why it isn't entirely a "free lunch"

I wouldn't worry about the legalese disclaimer of confidentiality in their terms. Lawyers are just protecting them from being sued later by a developer who claims that another developer with a similar idea and the same integration got the idea via this company (even without evidence) because it couldn't have happened in any other way! There is no way they can prevent the lawsuits if they had to provide confidentiality clauses for such promotions and their business wouldn't be funded if they did.

I am not recommending for or against this service. Just providing my analysis that developers should be aware of and decide for themselves.

Edited to add:
Another consideration is that if the reward system (as they presumably hope) becomes a not insignificant reason for the success of your app, then you have become a hostage to their service. You may not be able to remove it without jeopardizing the app even if they change the terms later for integration or abuse the process.

I can see how all this can work for benefit of all in the best case scenario with the best assumptions but I can also see many ways in which it can go downhill quickly and taking that $5000 might seem like a bad idea. Only you can decide for yourself.

Last edited by TouchDeveloper; 03-10-2012 at 03:00 PM.. Reason: Added another point
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2012, 05:18 PM
kunaalkiip kunaalkiip is offline
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Thanks for your comments! Our goal is to give rewards to users, and when we first started out, we were chasing down emotion marketing budgets, which are typically spent with people handing out Red Bulls on street corners. We're looking to bring that money into achievement points in games and we'd rather have that money spent in new media in games and apps. The e-mail addresses aren't part of our business model, and e-mail is purely a medium of transport of rewards to a user. Also, we put our logo and our brand on the rewards and in the e-mails for the reward information, because we're trying to build a trust with users and developers!

Last edited by kunaalkiip; 03-10-2012 at 05:28 PM..
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2012, 06:15 PM
TouchDeveloper TouchDeveloper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunaalkiip View Post
The e-mail addresses aren't part of our business model, and e-mail is purely a medium of transport of rewards to a user. Also, we put our logo and our brand on the rewards and in the e-mails for the reward information, because we're trying to build a trust with users and developers!
It may not be at this point, but assuming your VCs aren't dumb (and yes that is not always a good assumption), they have not given you money so that you cannot monetize that end-user acquisition further beyond sending that reward once or that you cannot provide that e-mail to your brand partners in the future. It is what happens after you build that initial trust that matters.

Does your privacy policy state that the e-mail address will be deleted after sending that reward e-mail? If not, the above statements now are irrelevant.

There are three questions you will need to answer for the careful developers.

1. Where is the privacy policy for the use of these e-mail addresses that is part of the terms of acceptance by the developer? If there isn't one, then it would be risky for the developers to use your system for reasons in my earlier post.

2. How do you guarantee that it will not change under the developer in the future while the system is still integrated?

3. How can developers be consistent with your end-user privacy policy and be consistent with the privacy policy accepted by default or explicitly created by the developer for the app so that Apple doesn't find a reason to pull the app?

It will be in your interests to think about these issues and be explicit about them if you haven't done so already already.
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