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  #61  
Old 06-14-2012, 01:41 AM
>:D >:D is offline
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Ah, that's great to hear. I can finally resume playing Bee Leader, looking forward to the update!
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  #62  
Old 06-15-2012, 06:04 AM
flightless flightless is offline
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Default Bee Leader - Flightless / Developers

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Originally Posted by >:D View Post
Ah, that's great to hear. I can finally resume playing Bee Leader, looking forward to the update!
v1.1.1 is out with Game Center updates, a global Hive Honey leaderboard and bugfixes for potential savegame data corruption. Let us know how it goes and if you have any more lost honey problems!
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  #63  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:29 AM
TheFrost TheFrost is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r_albert View Post
the game is average, graphics are good concept is awesome
I would change the order:

Graphics are average, concept is good, game is awesome
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  #64  
Old 06-15-2012, 04:44 PM
flightless flightless is offline
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Default Bee Leader - Flightless / Developers

Quote:
Originally Posted by r_albert View Post
the game is average, graphics are good concept is awesome
Thanks for your feedback, r_albert. What do you think would improve the game and graphics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFrost View Post
I would change the order:

Graphics are average, concept is good, game is awesome
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  #65  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:11 AM
SpeckledJim SpeckledJim is offline
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OK, some feedback on game play. Firstly the game seems unfairly stacked against you. Your bee character is constrained to the 2D plane and must fly around obstacles, the flying enemies get to fly behind them. Easier to code AI for, I grant you, but not exactly player friendly if they don't play by the same rules.

It seems to be far too easy to end up like a pinball at times, one thing hits you and it sets off a chain reaction. For example most of the areas near the wind turbines.

The hornet, you call it pesky, I call it the terminator as it absolutely will not stop. Why not let the swarm of bee buddies you collect deal with it? Maybe you need at least 5 to be able to chase the hornet off. It would also give an incentive to collect them, since they would actually do something apart from increase score. Alternatively the bee buddies could be triggered into a defensive mode, where they fly around your bee, taking the hit your bee would. It seems like there's plenty of ways of making it seem less one sided.

The physics objects also seem to cause trouble, they don't affect enemies, and all too easily trap you, though you can usually get out eventually. Again it seems unfair.
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  #66  
Old 06-19-2012, 06:34 AM
TheFrost TheFrost is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledJim View Post
OK, some feedback on game play. Firstly the game seems unfairly stacked against you. Your bee character is constrained to the 2D plane and must fly around obstacles, the flying enemies get to fly behind them. Easier to code AI for, I grant you, but not exactly player friendly if they don't play by the same rules..
I have to agree with this... wasps should have the same rules as the Bee. Its annoying that they can get behind the scenery like that.
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  #67  
Old 06-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Bool Zero Bool Zero is offline
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True, many times I have found myself caught in a juggle simply because I try to get a honey jar in a tight area or something and the Wasp rears on me quickly and catches my every attempt to escape. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough to where the game seems very lopsided and not very balanced.


Stage balance seems another issue. One would think logical progression would be a steady curve in difficulty, but these stages seem more built and populated for aesthetics rather than balance. As such a starting stage in a world can be brutal yet the following stages can be a breeze. Other times the starting stage is a breeze, the last stage as well, but the middle one is torture. There seems no steady progression of difficulty, and ofttimes the A.I. can feel so randomly aggressive that you feel singled out by too-good aim and sticky rubberband enemies.

It is still a fun game mind you, but not without it's frustrations and noticeable game development, um, shortcuts? Developer limitations? Not trying to insult the Dev, they have a great job here but it is at least to me, apparent that some of these issues are developer in progress missteps, and perhaps lack of technical knowledge of how to code and effectively code for such within the constraints of the development cycle.

It's one thing to have static enemies, pattern enemies, enemies that are in some way lethal but avoidable, it's another entirely when you have enemies that ignore the established constraints of the world in order to present challenge. It is what I all Rock, Paper, Scisser, Hulk. You establish the Rock Paper Scissers rules of the world and then present an enemy that ignores all those established rules to promote and artificial challenge. Quite simply, it feels cheap in most cases, and often feels like a shortcut design choice to compensate for lack of challenging A.I..

In this case, the Wasp is this games Hulk. It can not be avoided, it cannot be defeated, it cannot be out ran or reasoned with, and like the Terminater it will find you and kill you (or steal or your precious honey, which is far less nefarious I admit, but for the bravado my statement evokes let's stick with kill!).


With all that, I still think the game is great! There is some need for a few tweaks and fixes though! And thank goodness the save game fix is coming, because I was coming here to complain when I went to play today and saw all my progress wiped! Disconcerting, yes, but I can let it go in the hopes that it won't happen again after the patch. Then again I have lost far more in games lie Jetpack Joyride with the Openfient/Gamecenter problem, months of progress gone! So keep the good work! Despite my rumblings there s still a gem here... But if we give blind praise how can anyone learn to e better and learn to make and do better?

Last edited by Bool Zero; 06-20-2012 at 02:19 PM..
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  #68  
Old 06-21-2012, 11:37 PM
flightless flightless is offline
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Default Bee Leader - Flightless / Developers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bool Zero View Post
With all that, I still think the game is great! There is some need for a few tweaks and fixes though!
@Bool Zero @SpeckledJim @TheFrost thanks for your feedback, comments and criticism. We'll try to give you some perspective on our thinking and approach to the game during its development.

Not that it should matter much or at all to players, but we're essentially a self-funded indie studio (one design, one tech) so there's a very limited amount of time and effort we can put into any particular set of features while trying to actually release a product and retain our sanity. We worked for a year to make Bee Leader and along the way there were plenty of choices that had to be made to fit in with our initial goals and game design, intended and potential audience, timeframes and budgets, etc. We're extremely happy and proud with what we've built and how well it's been received by players, review sites and critics.

We realise that you cannot please everyone all of the time and it's not something we set out to do, even with a simple game about bees collecting nectar. The fact that such a simple game can receive such a wide range of feedback (on forums, reviews, App Store comments, etc.) is amazing but certainly not unexpected based on our previous experience We're happy to read all the feedback, both positive and negative, and engage with anyone who's taken the time to comment where we can. You're right, it's important not to only ever hear or listen to how awesome something might be. Well-constructed, critical feedback is really important but sometimes hard to wrangle with the relative anonymity provided by forums like the App Store where comments can easily turn into a simple 'I hate this, 1-star' affair.

We worked hard to keep the game as simple as we could, yet provide players who learnt or noticed a few things ways to do better. The view of our world is constrained to a 2d plane so we had to solve a few problems and decide what that meant for players, enemies and objects, particularly the difference between ground and flying enemies. We agree that from a critical, game theory-type perspective we've broken some rules with the player and some of the world being allowed to do slightly different things. @Bool Zero, we didn't do this without thinking or make technical mistakes, rather we looked at what the different rules would mean for development effort and our intended audience, and the general feel of the casual gameplay. Was it worth spending a lot of time on a physics-world ai navigation system where enemies were hyper-aware of their surroundings, other objects and enemies and what the player was doing? In our opinion it wasn't, so we used simpler techniques. We've made other interactives before with path-finding and more complex ai so it's not really a case of lack of technical knowledge. It was a decision we made knowing that we were likely to annoy some players who expected things to work differently, but also that the majority of our audience probably wouldn't mind. That being said, if we received overwhelming feedback that the rule-breaking hornet shouldn't fly behind 2d buildings and should chase the bee inside then we'd look to address that

What your feedback does suggest is that although you might have been fine with the hornet breaking a few rules, you're not fine with a few rules being broken and thinking that the hornet was too powerful. Your comments about not being able to outrun or avoid the hornet are interesting and you might need to further clarify them to us, but we think that the hornet can be both outrun and avoided. It's a little tricky to explain everything without giving it all away and removing some charm! There are game tips during the transition that offer help with hiding from enemies - the bee darkens and is hidden when fully inside any structure. We've definitely talked about all this sort of feedback and have considered tweaking the mighty hornet powers

@SpeckledJim the pinball chain-reaction type stuff is a feature... and it was way more crazy during a lot of our development! We had to tone it down for release and then again for the update to the tighter handling. Also, as discussed above, we're happy to bend some 2d rules and have birds and clouds fly behind structures else the gameplay would simply not work as well. Yes, some structures that aren't fully solid don't protect you from these enemies, but more often than not there's places to hide nearby. We agree, sometimes the physics objects can trap you and we've worked hard to allow the bee to escape from everything! If there's particular places you're getting trapped please let us know and we'll look at updating the offending world/objects. Finally, yes, we've been thinking of all sorts of further uses for the bee buddies, including their interaction with the hornet. If any of the ideas don't stray too far from our design goals or otherwise upset the balance of the game then they'll find their way into future updates.

Thanks again for your feedback - feel free to comment further or email us if you like (beeleader@flightless.co.nz). It's cool that such a simple, casual game can generate good discussion and debate

cheers,

// Greg & John, Flightless.
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  #69  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:38 AM
SpeckledJim SpeckledJim is offline
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I have to say I didn't twig that when the bee is "hiding", the hornet loses interest and flies off. It seems to me that making that rather more obvious rather than hoping players discover it would have been a wiser course, given just how annoying the hornet can be. I can imagine there are people that will have been cheesed off enough to stop playing before they worked it out.
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  #70  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:28 PM
flightless flightless is offline
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Default Bee Leader - Flightless / Developers

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledJim View Post
I have to say I didn't twig that when the bee is "hiding", the hornet loses interest and flies off. It seems to me that making that rather more obvious rather than hoping players discover it would have been a wiser course, given just how annoying the hornet can be. I can imagine there are people that will have been cheesed off enough to stop playing before they worked it out.
We were happy to let players discover some parts of the game without having it all explained to them. There are game tips that appear during transition that give hints about various things so we didn't think there was enough reason to include more information about things like the hornet in the description/meta data, the 'how to play' screens or anywhere else unless we were asked or received enough feedback to want to change things. So far we've had comments that the hornet is pesky (great, he's supposed to be!) and we're considering ways to tweak the behaviour, but there's only been a couple like yours when players didn't click about being able to hide. (So, thanks for letting us know!)

We agree that some people might have been frustrated, but equally we've had players give great feedback when they figure little things out and discover bits of the game that haven't really been talked about. Even with a relatively simple game mechanic like Bee Leader there's a fine balance to try to get right throughout the entire experience - it's not perfect but we're trying hard to make it as awesome as we can.
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