Support our Sponsors:

Go Back   Touch Arcade > Games and Apps > iPhone and iPad Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Mythbuster Mythbuster is offline
Senior Member
iPad Air, iOS 7.x
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the middle of nowhere
Posts: 954
Send a message via Skype™ to Mythbuster
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
What kind of handicaps do the "higher level AIs" get?
As far as I think: None ... they are just really good and they use different ways and strategies!
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:14 PM
DaviddesJ DaviddesJ is offline
Senior Member
iPad
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Burlingame CA
Posts: 2,377
Default

There's no strategy/simulation game that's ever been competitive with humans without handicaps. AI techniques can be competitive with humans for combinatorial games like chess, but they aren't competitive for wide-ranging simulation games like this. There are really only two possibilities: the computer players get some handicaps/advantages, or they are easy to beat. Hopefully the former. The real trick in making a good single-player game is to choose the handicaps for the computer opponents well, so they create an interesting challenge without being overwhelming or completely changing the game (e.g., huge starting forces so they only way to survive at the beginning is to avoid conflict).
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:16 PM
christophercotton christophercotton is offline
Senior Member
iPad (3rd Gen), iOS 5.x
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
What kind of handicaps do the "higher level AIs" get?
I believe there might be some "information" handicaps, though I'll have to check with the person who wrote the AI on exactly what. High intelligence AIs will definitely prefer to beat up on humans (kill all humans!)

The other option is if you allow them to be "Best Buddies" they share information with each other.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:19 PM
christophercotton christophercotton is offline
Senior Member
iPad (3rd Gen), iOS 5.x
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
There's no strategy/simulation game that's ever been competitive with humans without handicaps. AI techniques can be competitive with humans for combinatorial games like chess, but they aren't competitive for wide-ranging simulation games like this. There are really only two possibilities: the computer players get some handicaps/advantages, or they are easy to beat. Hopefully the former. The real trick in making a good single-player game is to choose the handicaps for the computer opponents well, so they create an interesting challenge without being overwhelming or completely changing the game (e.g., huge starting forces so they only way to survive at the beginning is to avoid conflict).
They have different strategies with regards to the level of intelligence, and there is a definite progression and set of strategies based on the levels. This makes it easier to beat up on the lower level ones, while still having more difficulty with the larger ones.

And yes, I do think the very high end intelligence gets an information handicap. Though I need to check to see what else it gets. I have found the hardest ones quite hard to beat. Though sometimes I can.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:21 PM
Mythbuster Mythbuster is offline
Senior Member
iPad Air, iOS 7.x
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the middle of nowhere
Posts: 954
Send a message via Skype™ to Mythbuster
Default

@David: Sorry that is not correct. I studied informatics and I programmed several games / search engines ... SpaceHo is not that complex for building a strong AI without cheating ... the game parameter are very limited!

Games like Go are much more complicate and right now they are getting stronger and stronger ... or take a look at backgammon: With neural network programming (like JellyFish) you get a program that beats even the human master ... without cheating or big databases ...

Last edited by Mythbuster; 04-12-2012 at 01:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:35 PM
DaviddesJ DaviddesJ is offline
Senior Member
iPad
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Burlingame CA
Posts: 2,377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythbuster View Post
@David: Sorry that is not correct.
Well, I know a lot more about this than you do. There have certainly been advances in AI, but backgammon programs use combinatorial search and Monte Carlo simulation, which is effective for games like backgammon with a limited search space, a small, discrete set of legal moves, considerable randomness, and not much long-term strategy. (You don't have to decide what strategy you're going to pursue in a backgammon game when you make your first move, because what happens is going to depend on the dice anyway.) Even Go has a very small search space compared to exploration/simulation type strategy games, and yet the best computer players are very, very far from the best human players. No one has ever programmed any game like this one to play anywhere near as well as a skilled human player. That is simply a fact.

Anyway, I appreciate the actual information from others about how the game actually plays, and I'm looking forward to having the time to try it myself.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
athros athros is offline
Member
iPad 2, iOS 5.x
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 50
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
Well, I know a lot more about this than you do.
And your background is?
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:45 PM
Mythbuster Mythbuster is offline
Senior Member
iPad Air, iOS 7.x
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the middle of nowhere
Posts: 954
Send a message via Skype™ to Mythbuster
Default

Well ... I know this game since around 15 years or more ... and I played endless games ... and I can promise you I had never the feeling that the AI cheats!

Even if they have at the very high IQ settings a handycap ... you don't feel it ... and that is the most important thing ...
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 04-12-2012, 02:22 PM
ArtNJ ArtNJ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,790
Default

Well, I never had a mac, so I dont know that I every played version 5. I could be wrong on this, but I think 4 was the last one released on the PC.

The highly simplified nature of force placement in Ho should indeed make it easier to build a strong AI without cheating, but that doesnt mean its easy. Look at Risk. Risk has a similarly simple system of force distribution, but no one has published good AI. This just isnt a game remotely like Civilization or Master of Orion, and I'm sure that with enough time and effort, killer AI *could be* developed, but that doesnt mean it would be cost effective to do it.

Anyway, I always felt that Ho cheated quite a bit at the high levels. Anyway, glad to hear that folks are not feeling that way.

Last edited by ArtNJ; 04-12-2012 at 02:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 04-12-2012, 02:49 PM
DaviddesJ DaviddesJ is offline
Senior Member
iPad
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Burlingame CA
Posts: 2,377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by athros View Post
And your background is?
Hmm. I don't think credentials are very useful here, but I have a PhD in math, I studied computer science at MIT, I was one of the first software engineers at Google, my boss was the author of the world's leading AI textbook. I think I have a fair idea about what's possible.

On the other hand, I haven't played the game, I shouldn't really be expressing an opinion about this game without playing it. I know that computer opponents can't play games like Civilization or MOO anywhere near as well as humans. But maybe this game is simpler/different and the AI can do better, I shouldn't venture an opinion without trying it first.

Anyway, thanks for the responses. Giving the AI information advantages seems like potentially a reasonable compromise (predicting what the opponent is going to do is one of the most difficult problems in this sort of game).
Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Copyright 2012, TouchArcade.com, LLC.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2008 - 2011, TouchArcade.com. Privacy Policy / DMCA Copyright Agent