Legalization of Marijuana?

[pluto6]

Originally Posted by jeffy777

So we all know that alcohol and cigarettes have many adverse health effects, but yet they're legal.....which is fine because adults should have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their bodies....

But on top of that, the intoxicating effects of alcohol are much, MUCH stronger than weed. That's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know what they're talking about. With alcohol, the more you drink, the drunker you get and if you drink a lot at once you can potentially lose control, throw up, pass out, or even kill yourself from alcohol poisoning. With weed, you can only get so high. Whether you smoke 1 joint or 10 joints or even more, you aren't going to keep getting higher and no one has ever been reported to overdose on weed because it just doesn't happen. Plus, weed doesn't affect your motor skills like alcohol does. You aren't going to be stumbling around or getting all tipsy like drunks do. Contrary to ignorant opinion, weed does not blur your vision or any of that stuff. Bottom line is alcohol is way more intoxicating and dangerous. There's really no comparison.

It's pretty hypocritical that weed should remain illegal, yet we can drink all the alcohol we want. It's retarded, actually. Eating at McDonalds is worse for your health, no doubt about that, but yet it's legal. There are a ton of things in life that may be potentially harmful if you use them on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they should be illegal, otherwise we would have to start banning all sorts of things, including fast food, high fructose corn syrup, etc.

Not to be argumentative, but where's your data? I refer you to literature searches. Alcohol is indeed more intoxicating with respect to motor skills ie driving, but marijuana has other neural effects that in some people is quite incapacitating. You can't make broad sweeping statements. They aren't true. Drugs have specific effects on specific target organs. And, saying that because people engage in unhealthy lifestyles if they want is a popular position, but doesn't work well. Where does it stop - no speed limits? Ignore traffic laws? Ok to burgle, rape, murder? Or is it only Ok to abuse yourself? So, we should ignore anorexics, bulimics, drug dependence, obesity? There are reasonable arguments (mostly economic) to legalizing marijuana, but you can't argue it from a health perspective unless you are just appealing to people's emotions like your McDonalds example. At most, some studies show there appears to be no effect, but most show adverse effects.

And, go to the same, or any other medical database and try and find data on beneficial effects of marijuana - there isn't much.

[jeffy777]

Originally Posted by pluto6

Not to be argumentative, but where's your data? I refer you to literature searches. Alcohol is indeed more intoxicating with respect to motor skills ie driving, but marijuana has other neural effects that in some people is quite incapacitating. You can't make broad sweeping statements. They aren't true. Drugs have specific effects on specific target organs. And, saying that because people engage in unhealthy lifestyles if they want is a popular position, but doesn't work well. Where does it stop - no speed limits? Ignore traffic laws? Ok to burgle, rape, murder? Or is it only Ok to abuse yourself? So, we should ignore anorexics, bulimics, drug dependence, obesity? There are reasonable arguments (mostly economic) to legalizing marijuana, but you can't argue it from a health perspective unless you are just appealing to people's emotions like your McDonalds example. At most, some studies show there appears to be no effect, but most show adverse effects.

And, go to the same, or any other medical database and try and find data on beneficial effects of marijuana - there isn't much.

Quite a bit of good data here (from reputable scientific sources) about how much more dangerous and harmful alcohol is:
www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/

I can provide more if you want....

I'm not saying everything should be legal. I'm just saying that it's retarded that weed is illegal while alcohol is perfectly legal. It makes zero sense.

BTW, I'm a paraplegic (from a spinal cord injury), and it truly does help with my symptoms, so I've experienced the medical benefits first hand.

[pluto6]

Originally Posted by jeffy777

Quite a bit of good data here (from reputable scientific sources) about how much more dangerous and harmful alcohol is:
http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/#longterm

I can provide more if you want....

I'm not saying everything should be legal. I'm just saying that it's retarded that weed is illegal while alcohol is perfectly legal. It makes zero sense.

BTW, I'm a paraplegic (from a spinal cord injury), and it truly does help with my symptoms, so I've experienced the medical benefits first hand.

I won't argue that alcohol can be dangerous. Lots and lots and lots of data on that. But, you can't compare safety of alcohol to safety of marijuana. Their safety profiles are different. They each need to be looked at on their own merits. Medical marijuana is a whole other argument, and also has it's pros and cons. And while I personally am happy for you that it helps, one can't make public policy on anecdotes. Everyone knows someone that had a good or bad effect with particular medications, drugs, foods, etc. We make public policy based on population experiences, not on the individual experience. Are there problems with that? Sure - vaccines cause some issues (NOT autism), but there are some very significant side effects that can happen - but public policy was made to protect the vast majority of people that benefit, that we would vaccinate, with the realization a small number would be harmed. There is no perfect policy, there s too much human variation. So, I tend to believe with health issues, moving slowly, and getting as much data as possible is better - and if public policy is made based on data, then people can argue the merits of the data, and come to their best decision - just like the health decisions you have to make. There generally are not right or wrong decisions, mostly it's risk vs benefit, and what fits best with a particular persons need - but, that is not a good prescription for public health. One has to look at what's best for the population, not the individual. And, once policies are made, they are difficult to withdraw.

Ok, so I am voicing an unpopular position - not surprising on a game board. And, while I personally have seen much more harm than good from marijuana, if the ongoing studies show that it is a relatively safe substance, than so be it. I think the decisions should be made with good data, and not emotions. And definitely not with anecdotal data - everyone's got their stories, and those are just that - stories.

And your source unfortunately is devoted to making marijuana sound ok. Quoting studies that support your view is not scientific, it's cheating. You need to search the whole of literature - PubMed - it has over 20 million citations, and will give you articles - not an argument. Your source is not objective, it's biased, and therefore unreliable. The articles it uses - fine, but one is a story in the Washington Post - sorry, they don't do research as far as I know. Anyways - I probably won't convince anyone, and I'm not really trying to, but I think people should use reputable sources to get their data from before taking positions that affect hundreds of millions of people.

[Leothwyn]

Originally Posted by pluto6

And, if you would do some research as I suggested, you would not be so flippant that marijuana is not as dangerous as alcohol or cigarettes. Those are common sayings, but where's your data? Lit searches are full of data showing marijuana to be harmful.

If you think marijuana is anywhere close to as harmful as alcohol, I assume you're just talking about the individuals using the drugs. I'm skeptical of that, but I haven't read the studies that you have. Maybe you could give some statistics on the numbers of deaths by marijuana vs. alcohol each year?

Anyway, how about harm to families and society? Drunk people get violent and reckless. They drive drunk, they start fights, they beat wives and children. And pot smokers? They giggle, they get hungry, they take a nap.

[jeffy777]

Pluto, even though they are very different, alcohol and marijuana can be compared because they are both drugs. Yes, there are some harmful side effects from weed (to the airways, for instance....it is smoke, after all....however, more and more people are turning to vaporizers or THC oils, so that takes away all the harmful effects of smoking), but it's pretty obvious that a LOT more harm comes from alcohol than weed. It's a fact. There's no getting around that, and that's why it's quite hypocritical to treat weed like it's somehow worse than alcohol and to send people to jail just for smoking a joint.....meanwhile people are free to get hammered all they want. Like I said, it just doesn't make sense, and it just shows how backwards our line of thinking can be, even with all of our modern science and technology.

[pluto6]

Originally Posted by Leothwyn

If you think marijuana is anywhere close to as harmful as alcohol, I assume you're just talking about the individuals using the drugs. I'm skeptical of that, but I haven't read the studies that you have. Maybe you could give some statistics on the numbers of deaths by marijuana vs. alcohol each year?

Anyway, how about harm to families and society? Drunk people get violent and reckless. They drive drunk, they start fights, they beat wives and children. And pot smokers? They giggle, they get hungry, they take a nap.

Is death your endpoint for dangerous? Hmmm... Using that argument, most of the medications that are used throughout the world are not dangerous, because not many people die from them. The Institute of Medicine estimated about 100,000 people die each year from medication error - but there are hundreds of millions prescriptions written each year - safe???Compared to heart disease of around 500,000 there are only 50,000 motor vehicle accidents, and only 30-50,000 deaths from influenza so I guess they are not dangerous. And hey, only about 10-12 people die every year from rabies, so I guess it's not dangerous either.

And drug dependence causes plenty of harm to families. Most alcoholics don't destroy their families by hitting - they destroy them from making the drug more important than the family. The same thing happens with marijuana. Some marijuana info from government statistics. And, before you say it's not true - this is derived from survey information from the users themselves.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

Btw - NIH is National Institute of Health - they don't have a political axe to grind.

[pluto6]

Originally Posted by jeffy777

Pluto, even though they are very different, alcohol and marijuana can be compared because they are both drugs. Yes, there are some harmful side effects from weed (to the airways, for instance....it is smoke, after all....however, more and more people are turning to vaporizers or THC oils, so that takes away all the harmful effects of smoking), but it's pretty obvious that a LOT more harm comes from alcohol than weed. It's a fact. There's no getting around that, and that's why it's quite hypocritical to treat weed like it's somehow worse than alcohol and to send people to jail just for smoking a joint.....meanwhile people are free to get hammered all they want. Like I said, it just doesn't make sense, and it just shows how backwards our line of thinking can be, even with all of our modern science and technology.

I would also refer you to the same link on just some basic statistics.

Alcohol has major problems - no doubt - I find it fascinating so much public awareness is spent on say - breast cancer - women have a lifetime risk of about 1 in 8 so it's significant - but 10 % of the whole country has alcohol problems and where are the campaigns? Where are the ribbons, where's the media?

I agree that alcohol has problems, but saying they are both drugs - ok which is worse - aspirin or Tylenol? Sort of depends on what you mean by worse - aspirin causes bleeding issues - Tylenol can cause liver and kidney problems - which is worse? Which is better? Aspirin saves lives due to it's anti clotting properties, Tylenol relieves fever (without causing Reyes syndrome - related to aspirin), and is a relatively safe pain reliever for the elderly. They both are good and bad. Alcohol has good properties and bad, so does marijuana - you are making value judgements on what you consider to be worse that may not be shared by others. That is why I say you can't compare them.

[jeffy777]

Originally Posted by pluto6

I would also refer you to the same link on just some basic statistics.

Alcohol has major problems - no doubt - I find it fascinating so much public awareness is spent on say - breast cancer - women have a lifetime risk of about 1 in 8 so it's significant - but 10 % of the whole country has alcohol problems and where are the campaigns? Where are the ribbons, where's the media?

I agree that alcohol has problems, but saying they are both drugs - ok which is worse - aspirin or Tylenol? Sort of depends on what you mean by worse - aspirin causes bleeding issues - Tylenol can cause liver and kidney problems - which is worse? Which is better? Aspirin saves lives due to it's anti clotting properties, Tylenol relieves fever (without causing Reyes syndrome - related to aspirin), and is a relatively safe pain reliever for the elderly. They both are good and bad. Alcohol has good properties and bad, so does marijuana - you are making value judgements on what you consider to be worse that may not be shared by others. That is why I say you can't compare them.

Well, the numbers don't lie though. When we look at the number of people that die from alcohol and alcohol related accidents vs. those from weed....it's pretty obvious that one is more harmful than the other.....and like you said, it's not all about death. Well, the studies also show (see the link I posted earlier) that alcohol is way more addictive, more intoxicating, makes people more aggressive, etc......

I agree that marijuana has it's problems, just like any drug....but I just don't see any good reason why it should remain illegal when it's not any worse than alcohol, with a lot of studies pointing to it being much less harmful. It should at least be decriminalized.

[Leothwyn]

Originally Posted by pluto6

Is death your endpoint for dangerous? Hmmm... Using that argument, most of the medications that are used throughout the world are not dangerous, because not many people die from them. The Institute of Medicine estimated about 100,000 people die each year from medication error - but there are hundreds of millions prescriptions written each year - safe???...

No, I guess that was a cheap shot. Alcohol kills lots of people, pot doesn't. Sure, there's more to it than that, but the point I was trying to back up was what jeffy was saying: that having something as dangerous as alcohol be legal while locking people in prisons for smoking pot is ridiculous and hypocritical. I never said that pot was totally harmless, but in my experience it's a bit more dangerous than coffee (and alcohol is off in a totally separate league). If I was bored enough, I bet I could track down a bunch of studies about the dangers of caffeine. Should we try the prohibition failure that we tried with alcohol to save people from caffeine? If we do, do you want to bet that demand for caffeine won't go down significantly (if at all)? It won't. If demand is there (like it is for pot), people will line up to supply it. Who would you rather have thriving on all of these transactions, regulated businesses or gangs of dangerous criminals?

[pluto6]

Ok - one last thing to think about - concerning which is worse.

Let's just say you live in a city - say 50,000 people. And in that city there are 3 murders each year, and 500 burglaries. If you survey people - which is worse - murder or burglary - most people (I'm assuming) will say murder. But if you survey your town, which they consider a bigger problem - they would likely say burglary - it happens much more frequently.

Turn it around and make burglaries few and murders many, and you have a double whammy.


Alcohol is used regularly by 52% of adults over age 18 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_249.pdf). So with 330 million Americans - not sure of adult population but let's say it's half even though it is likely much higher than that. So, 80 million people drink, compared with about 14 million people that smoke weed. Which is more likely to be a problem - regardless of the "seriousness"? Of course there are going to be lots ,ore alcohol issues - there are 5 times as many people who drink. And, what are the alcohol issues that make the press? DUI, child and spouse abuse, etc. You don't hear about the marijuana issues because the numbers pale in comparison - just like you would not hear about the occasional murder - or it would be quickly forgotten because the nect day there would be news on 2 or 3 more burglaries. ( and I am likely overemphasizing my point, because I in no way am trying to say marijuana use is as bad as, or related to murder)

Anyways, alcohol has problems - it affects every organ system adversely when over used. Dependence ruins millions of lives, families suffer terribly, the children are more likely to be alcoholic (15 % lifetime incidence of becoming dependent). Drunk drivers kill thousands of people. But, how do you know the same thing would not happen when 80 million people are using marijuana? We may not see issues because the numbers are small, and the numbers have always been small when compared with alcohol. Maybe marijuana causes all sorts of issues that come up when a significant part of the population uses it? Of the 14 million people that use marijuana, about 6-7 million either meet abuse, or dependence criteria by the DSM IV, so marijuana looks to be addictive in half the population that uses it. Imagine if alcohol had addiction of 50%. Only about 10%. So we will have 40 million or more people addicted to marijuana - is that good? Even if it's "safe" and all people do is get giggly, and even if they don't get in car accidents? Addiction of any form is a terrible disease and takes a toll on the individual, their families, friends, and society. There are huge costs both monetary, and non monetary treating, or not treating.

Anyways, I'm going to bed.