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Apple about to prevent indies to produce any good 3D games

04-11-2010, 07:44 AM
#1
Senior Member [Original Poster]
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 444
Apple about to prevent indies to produce any good 3D games

Hello gamers,

I'm sorry if this thread already has been posted elsewhere, but unfortunately I didn't find it.

In short, according to latest internet news, specifically an Engadget article, Apple's OS4 latest SDK was provided with a new developer license agreement that prevents any middleware to be used in app development.

Medias are mainly highlighting that it will prohibit Flash.
Unfortunately, Flash won't be the only one to fall. Several questions to S. Jobs, several analysis from serious people, and most of all not a single official answer yet, all of this means that there could be a huge slap in the face for many game engines.

Actually a lot of dev forums are completely freaking out.

This means : No more game with Unity3D, Flash, Torque, UnrealEngine, Shiva, or any other good middleware.

What you, gaming fellows, should know, is that producing an AAA 3D game without middleware requires to build a home 3D game engine.
Which is simply unthinkable for indies as we have to follow the pace with new titles, and painful for big studios considering all the monthes of work it requires.
Concretely, Appstore price tags are actually not a good justification to invest large amounts of time and money on such an engine, may it be for studios or indies.

If Apple doesn't change their mind on this new LA, the result will be :
1) a massive cut in new complex games
2) a massive exodus of devs toward other platforms

I am personally investing myself in a game since 2008, with 7-8 hours of work per day on top of my dayjob, and already raised the bill to 15000 $ (software, hardware, production).
I'm alone on making this project, and not paying myself. So that bill keeps low.
But I can't imagine other real indie studios who invested millions already ... and see Apple putting all this money, invested time and passionate dedication into trashcan.


I don't want to start a riot, or freak out more people than there are on dev forums, but just wanted you to be informed, as you will be the most severely hit by that Apple move.

So no official answer for now, but very, very awful posssibilities.

And particularly, that sentence from Steve Jobs :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jobs
We've been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.
I feel very depressed at the moment.

Last edited by c0re; 04-12-2010 at 03:09 AM.
04-11-2010, 07:59 AM
#2
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere In The Pacific Ocean
Posts: 594
This is terrible. Most (i think) of my games are indie devs. I like indie devs (especially because of their prices) and now the quality (polish atleast) will be not as great. Well, i guess graphics won't matter soon.

Currently Playing: Red Conquest, Battle for Wesnoth, and too many others.
Graal Classic ID: Blaze / Gameloft Live:Ace_97
Plus:Ace_97 / Open Feint:Ace_97 / Red Conquest: Ace_of_Spades

04-11-2010, 08:12 AM
#3
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 76
I think you overestimate the numbers of developers using this kind of technology.
04-11-2010, 08:19 AM
#4
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0re View Post
Hello gamers,

I'm sorry if this thread already has been posted elsewhere, but unfortunately I didn't find it.

In short, Apple's OS4 latest SDK was provided with a new developer license agreement that prevents any middleware to be used in app development.

link to Engadget article.

Medias are mainly highlighting that it will prohibit Flash.
Unfortunately, Flash won't be the only one to fall. Several questions to S. Jobs, several analysis from serious people, and most of all not a single official answer yet, all of this means that there could be a huge slap in the face for many game engines.

Actually a lot of dev forums are completely freaking out.

This means : No more game with Unity3D, Flash, Torque, UnrealEngine, Shiva, or any other good middleware.

What you, gaming fellows, should know, is that producing an AAA 3D game without middleware requires to build a home 3D game engine.
Which is simply unthinkable for indies as we have to follow the pace with new titles, and painful for big studios considering all the monthes of work it requires.
Concretely, Appstore price tags are actually not a good justification to invest large amounts of time and money on such an engine, may it be for studios or indies.

If Apple doesn't change their mind on this new LA, the result will be :
1) a massive cut in new complex games
2) a massive exodus of devs toward other platforms

I am personally investing myself in a game since 2008, with 7-8 hours of work per day on top of my dayjob, and already raised the bill to 15000 $ (software, hardware, production).
I'm alone on making this project, and not paying myself. So that bill keeps low.
But I can't imagine other real indie studios who inveted millions already ... and see Apple putting all this money, invested time and passionate dedication into trashcan.


I don't want to start a riot, or freak out more people than there are on dev forums, but just wanted you to be informed, as you will be the most severely hit by that Apple move.

So no official answer for now, but very, very awful posssibilities.

And particularly, that sentence from Steve Jobs :



I feel very depressed at the moment.
cOre, I think what this means for Torque, Unity and Shiva is still unclear. Unity's CEO's last message on the matter was that he's checking into it.
04-11-2010, 08:35 AM
#5
Senior Member [Original Poster]
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusse View Post
I think you overestimate the numbers of developers using this kind of technology.
Of course, I'm not talking about exiting apps, as most of them aren't in 3D.
But with all the upcoming hardware upgrades, social networks and gamemakers attractions, it is not realistic to think that there wouldn't be a growing appeal for 3D games. Either be it for devs or gamers.

I mean ... UnrealEngine was about to make iPhone exporting possible ... Adobe Flash too ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by squarezero View Post
cOre, I think what this means for Torque, Unity and Shiva is still unclear. Unity's CEO's last message on the matter was that he's checking into it.
Yep this is unclear, even after mister Helgason told there would not be any problem for Unity users.
This is what is freaking every dev out.
Plus, the Jobs quote I put in the first post is another bomb going straightly in contradiction with Unity's CEO statement ... :/

There is fear out there ..
04-11-2010, 09:02 AM
#6
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0re View Post
Of course, I'm not talking about exiting apps, as most of them aren't in 3D.
But with all the upcoming hardware upgrades, social networks and gamemakers attractions, it is not realistic to think that there wouldn't be a growing appeal for 3D games. Either be it for devs or gamers.

I mean ... UnrealEngine was about to make iPhone exporting possible ... Adobe Flash too ...




Yep this is unclear, even after mister Helgason told there would not be any problem for Unity users.
This is what is freaking every dev out.
Plus, the Jobs quote I put in the first post is another bomb going straightly in contradiction with Unity's CEO statement ... :/

There is fear out there ..
That's understandable. But if the worst fears proved to be true, there would be a massive disconnect between Apple marketing and the iPhone SDK. Even at the announcement they were touting the quantity of iPhone games as a competitive advantage. As you know, modern 3D game developmen is almost all accomplished with one form of mddleware or another (the Quake engine for example, or the recently ported Unreal 3). Heck, at least 4 of the 10 best games of 2009 (according Apple's own list) were done with Unity.

When you seem to be getting such a big disconnect, especially on a company as tightly run as Apple, chances are that there is a misunderstanding. My guess is that this change has nothing to do with gaming.
04-11-2010, 09:06 AM
#7
Senior Member [Original Poster]
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 444
Thanks Squarezero for your comforting words

I want them to be true, badly ...
04-11-2010, 09:22 AM
#8
I hope we'll get the definitive answer on this question this week. The App store IMO would become a ghost town very quickly - with only higher priced 3d games trickling in slowly. The upcoming games thread in this forum for instance, would
become pretty stagnant, as all of us 'middleware' users have to move over to Droid. We'll see.
04-11-2010, 09:53 AM
#9
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 702
I'm really hoping it doesn't mean what it appears to mean, or that the agreement is changed to allow many/most/all of the alternate development tools to still be used. On the other hand, if Apple sticks to this, I think that means a potential that I'll see more developers jumping on the Android wagon instead, which will work well for me when I get my Droid next month.

Still, as it reads now and as most of us understand it, the new developer requirements really sounds hideously stupid and damaging for the app store as far as gaming goes.
04-11-2010, 09:54 AM
#10
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,404
Not this one?
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showth...threadid=51484

Anyway it's a stupid conspiracy theory. Apple loves some indie games too, but only the good ones.

Four most influential games: Papi Jump, iDracula, Fieldrunners, Flight Control.