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Steve Job's "Thoughts on Flash"

04-29-2010, 10:52 AM
#1
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 321
04-30-2010, 12:47 PM
#2
Very interesting read! Glad he shed some light on it, though.

04-30-2010, 12:51 PM
#3
My thoughts on this (also posted on cgtalk's thread on this topic...)

Steve Jobs plays missinformation games with the non-geeks/non-techies or half-informed people. While his words sound reasonable, there is not much reality behind them when speaking of Apple's way to operate business. He might pretend to do everything for the customers best, but this whole affair is a power game - nothing more..

HTML5/Canvas will - IF it ever will completly take off - be ready to be comparable to Flash's possibilities in 3-4 yrs. Video might be good earlier, but Video for Flash is only a fracture of Flash's power. Performance in HTML5 see's the same Virtual Machine limitations as Flash has seen through all it's lifetime, so HTML5 is there were Flash was 5yrs ago. But HTML5 is in danger of different implementation quality and depth through different Browser providers, so there is danger that HTML5 falls into the same pit as SVG/VRML for example. The other things Jobs talks about ( slow adoption rate of OS features when using middleware) might have some point, but to such a degree in Games (my area of mobile interest using Unity to develop). Jobs really is the perfect example of an NLP infested salesman: speak honey, do the opposite...


Here some blogs to bring reality back to the topic a bit...

http://www.untoldentertainment.com/b.../29/snow-jobs/

And here a blog entry from a game dev (flash mostly), of course totally biased pro flash ;-), but don't miss the link to "the enormous deficiencies" when coding with Html5/Canvas in it's current incarnation....

http://www.8bitrocket.com/newsdispla...newspage=40391

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Last edited by spacefrog; 04-30-2010 at 12:58 PM.
04-30-2010, 12:51 PM
#4
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Iceland
Posts: 278
Totally agree with him.

Interesting point also about flash not being suited to touch interfaces.

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04-30-2010, 01:00 PM
#5
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlth View Post
Totally agree with him.

Interesting point also about flash not being suited to touch interfaces.
how come this could be ?

Flash has all in it, the current coded flash pieces just do not make use of the touch features, because it's just started on mobile devices to play a bigger role (well except on iDevices). Flash can do every eventhandling which ever might be required for touch devices, but of course the Flash applications have to be coded to make use of Touch Input, which current Flash Application of course lack, because they were targeted at Desktops (mouse/keyboard). This is the most silly argument against Flash ever....

3D & Coding Freelance | Tweak Freak | 3ds Max | Unity3D | Unity iPhone | AS3 | C++
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Last edited by spacefrog; 04-30-2010 at 01:04 PM.
04-30-2010, 01:22 PM
#6
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacefrog View Post
how come this could be ?

Flash has all in it, the current coded flash pieces just do not make use of the touch features, because it's just started on mobile devices to play a bigger role (well except on iDevices). Flash can do every eventhandling which ever might be required for touch devices, but of course the Flash applications have to be coded to make use of Touch Input, which current Flash Application of course lack, because they were targeted at Desktops (mouse/keyboard). This is the most silly argument against Flash ever....
While it's a weak argument against Flash in general, it is certainly a strong argument as to why Flash support isn't the most important thing in the world for the iDevices. Video, media, and even games can be created through open technologies that the devices support and games and "rich media" websites are all geared towards mouse/keyboard.

As there isn't a whole lot of touch-sensitive websites out there, there's little point starting to create these with a locked technology that's not supported by one of the biggest touch-platforms...
04-30-2010, 01:37 PM
#7
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 362
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I think Steve Jobs makes some good points about open web standards (as a web developer, I tend to hate Flash for the same reasons), but his justification for banning it, along with a lot of other great tools, is reminicent of Microsoft's anti-competetive practices.

Also, the "sixth, and most important reason" is a complete lie. Sub-standard programmers write sub-standard software, regardless of tools. And besides, he only addresses the "you must use Apple's tools" part of the agreement change. What about "you can't use any scripting but javascript, and if you use javascript you have to use Mobile Safari's implementation of the webkit javascript parser"? This has nothing to do with "sub-standard software" and everything to do with banning Lua and other scripting languages (not to mention BASIC, like in the C64 emulator), to somehow prevent people from running stuff on the iPhone that Apple doens't have a final say over.

Apple's the new Microsoft, only somehow they're a lot better at public relations and looking hip. But because of this, and how the App Store is run, I think the iPhone is a sinking ship. Steve Job's wouldn't have to write lengthy articles defending his position if it weren't.

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Last edited by micah; 04-30-2010 at 02:05 PM.
04-30-2010, 02:50 PM
#8
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickFalk View Post
While it's a weak argument against Flash in general, it is certainly a strong argument as to why Flash support isn't the most important thing in the world for the iDevices. Video, media, and even games can be created through open technologies that the devices support and games and "rich media" websites are all geared towards mouse/keyboard.

As there isn't a whole lot of touch-sensitive websites out there, there's little point starting to create these with a locked technology that's not supported by one of the biggest touch-platforms...
Sorry - talking about Appstore/iDevice and "flash is a locked technology" in the same sentence is a little bit faaaaaaaar stretched. Of course Flash is not the "most important" thing to come to mobile devices, but that in no way is a reason to be that walling in as apple/jobs currently behaves. The reason for those actions against flash are plain and simple fear of losing control (which of course is understandable from a business POV). All things Steve talks about are honey-coated excuses and pure NLP opinion spinning efforts...

3D & Coding Freelance | Tweak Freak | 3ds Max | Unity3D | Unity iPhone | AS3 | C++
Platforms | XP32SP3 | Quad Xeon X3350 | 4GB | 9800GTX | Mac Mini | OSX 10.6.2 | iPod Touch 3rd Gen

Last edited by spacefrog; 04-30-2010 at 03:15 PM.
04-30-2010, 03:56 PM
#9
Am I the only feels that it's morally wrong for a corporation to declare what their hardware can and cannot run for anything other than purely technical reasons? Flash works on the iPhone. It's debatable how buggy it is, or how good it is for the advancement of web technology. What's not debatable is that Flash is in demand. Like it or hate it, many people use Flash.

Apple has abused the power of their TOS to force their opinion on its customers. No matter what Steve Jobs believes, nothing good can come of that.
04-30-2010, 03:56 PM
#10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacefrog View Post
how come this could be ?

Flash has all in it, the current coded flash pieces just do not make use of the touch features, because it's just started on mobile devices to play a bigger role (well except on iDevices). Flash can do every eventhandling which ever might be required for touch devices, but of course the Flash applications have to be coded to make use of Touch Input, which current Flash Application of course lack, because they were targeted at Desktops (mouse/keyboard). This is the most silly argument against Flash ever....
Nope, not a silly argument at all. As a developer in BOTH Flash and Mobile Devices, I can tell you that Steve Jobs is exactly correct. My initial attempts to use Flash on Mobile Devices almost a decade ago came up with these exact problems: Flash is not designed for touch interfaces. Sure, there are workarounds, but it is ridiculous to think that the vast number of Flash that is available on the Web will work on mobile devices.

Need proof? Pick up a PSP and navigate to any number of Flash driven content. Need proof of its lacking in touch interfaces? Pick up a PocketPC/Windows Mobile device and navigate to any number of Flash-driven content.

It simply doesn't work. To think that we are actually missing anything with the CURRENT content is ludicrous and shows a gross misunderstanding of how both technologies work. Yes, content can be modified to work with mobile devices, but the underlying problems are still there, especially in regard to performance. Which is pathetic in the most optimistic sense.

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