What's wrong with Hanto?

@abstractgamefreak You know what? That's your first ever post, so first of all I'd like to welcome you to TA.

That said, there are Terms of Service to participate here. Violations of which will have you banned.

I LOVE TA, but:

I'm willing to get banned over criticizing stupid s@#$ like you just wrote.

This is getting old now. I've said my piece. I live where Apple is: America.
No laws are being broken, but hey, we dont release convicted plane bombers that kill 200+ passengers, either

And HIVE is not "Genius", it's "obvious". It's not a mechanic like M:TG, Carcassonne, or a Rinzer game.
I could make Apples to Apples or Fluxx clones all day long. Just like Tetris. Again, Flight Control dev should sue Harbor Master dev? Are they unethical as well? OR is that different because it wasn't a boardgame first or something weird like that? What's your parameters for passing judgement? And maybe Jon's an asshole. Sounds like it to me. Assholes can make good games.

In closing, make sure to stop by BoardGameGeek.com and tell your hypocrite buddies I said "hi". And enjoy the dozens of photos of Hive fan/player table clones made of baked clay and steel/brass bolts with gemstones. I'm making one out of foam board, come sue me. You know what? I might just go sell them at the flea market. Yeah, think I will. Probably make more money than Hanto....

 

Hi there! (OT)

Why, thank you Dark NRG for that warm welcome!

That's maybe the problem, where you live: to remember, that not everything's about money. Never mind...

 

Wow. This is good discussion.

Rula, I appreciate your decision to make this thread. I got Hanto when it was brand new and participated in the discussion at BGG. For old school/hardcore/veteran boardgamers the ethics point can be tough. I'm one of those, but I think the biggest problem here is that Hive is such a cult or niche game, strongly identified with one person (John Yianni). Making a clone or variant of Risk pisses no one off, because Risk is a) old, b) widely known, c) made by a big faceless corporation, d) made millions of dollars already. Making a clone of Hive was a more intimate act, and I can understand how John and some BGGers got upset by it. I won't delve any deeper into this, as I'm writing this on my iPhone and also english is not my native language so I can't express my thoughts so fluently. You get my drift, anyway. Personally, I don't think making Hanto was such a despicable act, it's legal and ideas are (mostly) free. Internet is full of free java clones of boardgames. World changes. Sure, there was some thoughtlessness and bad judgement involved on Rula's part, but no true offense IMO.

To answer the original question: for me, the game is just too dry. I don't like pure abstract games. Hive/Hanto is clever, but boring, just like Chess, Checkers or Tic-Tac-Toe. I love eurogames like Knizia's Samurai though, so there is a fine line but I'm not sure where it goes
Maybe it is the two-player, direct confrontational aspect. Introducing more players brings some unpredictability to game, spicing it up. Three-player Hanto, perhaps?

To reach target audience, you just need more visibility. Maybe this discussion helps, even. Any publicity is good publicity, eh?

 

relax guys...everyone is entitled to their own opinions! for example, I don't think anyone should have to work weekends...yet here I am stuck at work

 

the way things are on the app store I wont even try a demo unless I have some idea that it might be fun.
So unless you've played Hive it's hard to get an idea from the screenshots that it's a fun game.
Looks really well made though.

oh man I just read the ordeal about trying to cash in on someone else's idea. bad....very bad.

 

I think Hive and Hanto actually help each other much more than they compete with each other. I would have never heard of the game Hive if it were not for Hanto and this message board. If I like the basic gameplay mechanics of Hanto, then I would be much more likely to go and purchase the physical game Hive. If I wanted to play such a game with my friends in person, then I would definitely get the physical game Hive, and even though the games are not identical, I could practice my Hive skills by playing Hanto, and vice-versa.

Again, to take an analogy from chess, iPhone chess can be very fun to play against the computer or remotely, but if I am playing with another person in a coffee shop or at home or whatever, I'm going to use a physical board and pieces, and not try to hand an iPhone back and forth.

It looks to me as though because of the nature of the game, Hive is ideal to play in person with physical tiles. So again, I see Hive and Hanto benefiting each other much more than Hanto harms Hive in some way. You guys are natural allies, and the developer of Hive should hope that you are successful, because it would only help to popularize the basic Hive concept and gameplay. In fact, if he does not develop his own Hive iPhone app, he should encourage you to produce a rule-set on Hanto that is identical to Hive.

Don't make your app free Rula, we will get you enough sales so that Apple will release your earnings, and perhaps you might even be able to implement the "chess with friends" style play and push notification of moves.

 

Great game dev!

I've been enjoying for Hanto for awhile now. The visuals are sharp, the audio is great, and the gameplay is very slick. Merge these three things with a very easy to use rules editor and you have definitely created a winrar, imo.

I agree with everyone else that your problem with pushing units has to do with the fact that the game is incredibly niche. I also believe that there's this perceived high entry level to Hanto; the rules are simple to pick up but from the outside they look very daunting. I think that this is especially true for people just browsing through the iTunes store looking for the next thing after Monopoly.

unfamiliar rules + new product name + original concept not exactly popular past obscure= a very hard sale.

I'm not sure what changes could be made to the game to make it more mainstream popular. You've already created something very professional, and I don't think that something easy like adding a million tile sets will increase your sales.

ps.

The ability to name player rule sets would be awesome..

pss.

I forgot to mention thx for the pass and play feature. It's getting left out of a lot of apps lately.

 

WOW, +1! That may be the most reasonable, well stated point in this whole thread. Puts me to shame, my friend

Ok, I think I'll stay away from addressing those whom are American Capitalist haters. But, feel free to send some free Health Care my way

@Rula I've been in worse scraps here, and have had to wipe egg off my face as well
Also, please, just notice the Magic The Gathering "clone" Orions (from Chillingo) thread, where there are avid fans that are even now arguing and crying that the Dev made it clear they do not intend to maintain or update the game (but release in the unforeseeable future two expansions that's on the web), and the game hasn't seen an update since December 11th, YET the price is $4.99 USD! They don't care, and will still take the money, and none goes to, or even should, to WIZARDS of the Coast. Like Hanto and Kolonists, and unlike Tetris, Doom, or Risk, it's the only option on the app store for that sort of game.

I challenge anyone who LOVES their fav game that is a clone to, out of principle, "give it up" from your iPhone and live without it. Why should you, if its legal, and the creator has no intention of making the original, such as M:TG's case. I'm not about to play it on Xbox 360.

Another note: It's amazing all the posters who apologize for their poor English don't like Hanto, and yet their English is impeccable.

@s0mah +1 name player rule set. THAT'S what I'm missing.
Also, the rules/movement "seem" clear enuf, but you're right that it's apparently daunting for some reason unless you delve into it. Maybe that point should be more stated, and perhaps a schematic or illustration in color showing piece movement, like in the Hive rules or chess?

@99c gamer I really would love to know why no-one is addressing the Tetris arguement, bc it was made in Russia? Or made it's "money" so it's fair game? Geesh, talk about being a Capitalist! More to the point, the new "genre" of line draw games, I believe started by Flight Control. Harbor Master is making money, and stole the idea. I'm playing Lions Pride, same thing. You all want to ignore that, and they're indie devs taking someone's idea and programming, and making their own. Airport is a complete knock-off, so I don't want to hear hypocritical statements without a sound argument. I've given hell to devs here before, over quality or shilling (fake rave reviews). I'm no stranger to that. But we DO try to encourage devs, especially indies, and ones that do such a great job on their app should be commended. I've done my time at GAMMA and GenCons. I know the industry as much as any gamer. And if I could develop my own version of Munchkins or a "fantasy" version of "Hill 218", I WOULD. And I'd sleep at night, even if I made no money, just so I can play myself.

@Pharmx Sympathies brother

Edit: Ok, I'll be back. I'm goin out with my GF for our favorite Pizza shop in Pittsburgh (yeah, as in Steelers). Gonna take with us the "official" HIVE and play there, which is our Friday night tradition

 

it's different when you copy a game that's already on the platform. You're coming in with a second option for people who played and liked liked the original.
If there's no Hive iphone then you're really just syphoning potential sales away from the true game's creator. I know it's a fine line here that's open to debate.

But at least can we agree that once you've been contacted by the original developer
snubbing him and release your game anyway is not the right thing to do?

 

Hey, too bad......

I personally love Hanto. I bought it when it first came out. I never heard of Hive at the time, but I believe it was mentioned in the description. Before I downloaded Hanto I first checked to see if Hive was available. It wasn't! So, too bad for the creator. What? I shouldn't download Stone Loops just because Zuma isn't available? That's their fault, not the people who "legally" fill a need and a demand. And besides, I heard of Hanto first. Hanto made me aware of Hive. So in a way the creator should be thanking you..........My only suggestion is to maybe change a few very minor details here and there, and do it often. This way you re-submit frequently and it will keep Hanto fresh in the sort by release date in the mobile AppStore. That's how I and most of my friends find their new games. It's all about not getting buried. I don't know if that's easy to do, but it's the only thing I can think of.......Thanks for the great game.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. We might just have to disagree. I don't see "already on the platform" being a tacit premise by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly still not backed by any form of law worldwide. Do I agree with it personally, no. As I've stated, I myself got screwed. But I understand the risks, and how the REAL WORLD WORKS. And again, no form of HIVE "ever" came out, and it was legal for someone to make a knock off, then I and others are being denied our pursuit of happiness, a market in itself that could bear free market exchange.
So, by your argument, since the "line-draw" games like Harbor Master are all made on the iPhone already, and weren't somewhere else, are you saying that the dev of Flight Control would have a case, ethical or otherwise, if someone made "Wing Control" board game just like it?
Nah.

Finally, just fyi, there are many other apps in the same situation. Kolonists is a prime example, and Catan is has been announced by Hodapp recently here on TA. But since March or so, Kolonists is a total clone of Catan. No other Catan on this platform prior to that as you are arguing.

And nobody said crap about it. Seems "HIVE" is a hot topic, a contentious one at that. I appriciate Rusa explaining the Genesis, which we all experience in different facets of life, to no blame to anyone, and definitely not out of malice:
"Well, I know this now. I didn't know this before. That is the answer I can give to abstractgamefreak. I don't live in Europe, games like Hive are not remotely known in Argentina, I knew the game by chance on the Internet and I thought it was a big faceless hit like Risk, and contacting the author seemed like contacting Hasbro at the time. I found out I messed up with someone's baby too late. When I saw that the guy cared and had a face, it was too late: he was pissed beyond any amends. So I pulled it out, even when I had broken no law, and changed it. Maybe I will keep changing it until it is really far from the begining, or drop it and make it free, idk."

And Jess had the best comment of anyone in this whole forum. To sum up:
This is helping both Hive and Hanto. Everyone wins.
Now, that's a good game, if you ask me!

 

Just Imagine? The possibilties? Karma well get you every time!

Just imagine if you would have asked for permission first? If you could have used the Trademark, graphics and game play of Hive? You wouldn't be here on this forum complaining about the lack of sales. Most games by good game inventors and designers have one common element. They are stripped down to their simplest elements. To mess with that simplicity is dangerous.

Your Karma on Hanto is going to keep the app from doing well. Start some new projects with your own ideas or enlist some good help.
You will see the difference. Simplicity is worth gold!

I really think this attitude that everything can be copied really stinks. It is very simple for me. If a game is a direct copy of a game and I am aware of the fact that it is, I would always support the inventor. It is and can be that simple.

Games and puzzles take a lot of work to invent, develop, publish and promote, to simply say it is OK to copy someone's work is very wrong.

 

What's the heck is going on here?

I don't understand why everyone is down on this Hanto guy? All he did was ask a question of, what can he do to make the game more successful. He raised some valid points. And all everyone is doing is harping on him for copying a game. A game that doesn't exist on the iPhone. Big deal. If the inventor of Hive is so hurt and upset then please, create a game half as good as Hanto. I'm sorry to say, but everyone Copies everything these days. All the new games coming out are copies in one form or another. Didn't Gameloft just release a game very similar to GTA. What about Stone Loops and Atlantis? Luxor was late to the game. When there is a demand or an opening, people and devs are going to fill it. And like I said before, I heard of Hanto first. I would have been willing to buy a Hive app or even see what the original was about, but not now. Not after hearing how upset he was. What if I was a fan of Hive first? What if I wanted a mobile version of my favorite game? He isn't producing one, so I'm not supposed to play it. You know not everyone has the time to sit down with a real board game on family night. Get over the copying thing people, if that was a real problem you'd have to delete a large portion of your apps, then go home and throw out half your DVDs and CDs.

 

If you ask me what's wrong with Hanto, maybe it's because there are too much games like this one in the app store..
I think most people like 3d games - like RPGs, or Shooters.
It's just my opinion, because I'm one of the guys who don't like Puzzles - or games like Hanto. Maybe it's because this kind of games don't really have a story, say - like Zenonia or Resident Evil.

 

I agree with bonerswild.

To those that are bitching please go rip into all the match-3 games, all the chess games, all the '5 in a row' games, the two 'auditorium' games, the solitaire games, the pong games, the falling blocks games and many many more.

I forgot about TD - please feel free to rip into those nasty horrible devs who dared to copy that!

If you don't then be constructive - or should TA turn into some personal bitchfest just for you?

 

Of Karma And Mice

@Syndicated Puzzles DUDE, seriously, Karma?? Unethical ppl and devs are getting rich, so like what, you think they'll come back as bugs or something?
If you wanna get preachy about "Karma", tell that to the MILLIONS of Karma believers wiped out by the Tsunami in 200(5). Life is life. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, unless they get off their ass and do something which the market demands.

@Bonerswild Agreed. Look at all the knockoffs of big movies, even Titanic, without story permission. It's called Creative Plagerism. Not to mention the porn industry making their OWN version of Pirates of the Carribean LOL

@Chronical man, gotta disagree with that one friend. It seems the opposite, unless you're joking.

 

What about going with a different theme? Such as units of the Military.

 

Really interesting discussion here. I'd like to weigh in as a dev who's seen the ups and downs of the App Store. Also, I think I represent the majority of your target audience in that I've never seen or heard of Hive or Hanto before, but I do like puzzles.

First of all, you may be asking the wrong question. There may be nothing "wrong" with Hanto. Remember that the overwhelming majority of all App Store games do not turn a profit. Just because you don't win the lottery doesn't mean that there's something "wrong" with your game. In fact, it seems that many things are "right" in that you have some ardent fans who enjoy and love your game.


So let me rephrase your question. Instead of being negative about it and asking what's wrong with Hanto, let's ask "How can Hanto sell more?" I think that's a great question to ask. I have a few suggestions, in no particular order:

1. Marketing. If you're not marketing your game, nobody will do it for you. If you haven't written to the review sites yet, then by all means, do so! Getting coverage is hard, but if you don't contact the sites yourself, then you're probably not going to get any coverage at all. Arn usually likes unusual and polished puzzle games, and Hanto looks right up his alley. You're doing your game a huge disservice if you don't spend just a few hours one night writing about it to as many review sites as you can. Include a description, screenshots, and gameplay video if possible.
   
   
   
2. Name. Aside from marketing, I think the biggest thing holding you back is the name, honestly. Hanto means nothing to me, and I would assume most people. So you have a name that means nothing and an icon that means nothing - people just aren't going to click on it. People don't like unfamiliar things. Check out the top 100 games. They either have a name/icon that means something, or it's known IP (like Tetris). I think just renaming your game to be something concrete or understandable (Pentagons, Apiary, whatever) - would go a long way to get people to click on your icon.
   
   
   
3. Icon. Check out Arn's post on the importance of icons in the App Store. It's the most important 57x57px you'll make. Your app looks polished, but the icon doesn't do it justice. Some things I'd suggest:

• Use a blue tile for the icon, not red. It's been shown that people don't like clicking on red things - it looks like a warning or stay-away sign.
• Instead of the butterfly, I'd use the bird (the flying one, not the circular one). It's much simpler and pleasing to the eye.
• Put it on a black background. There are too many colors in the icon as it stands. So I'd suggest just a single blue tile with the bird on it on a black background.

I think trying all the above would give your game a much better chance. But if you do that and the game is still not selling (as most games don't, like I mentioned before) - then definitely the best thing to do is move on to your next project. I've seen way too many devs put in months and months of work into creating and then updating a game that just isn't going to sell. It's completely disheartening and does nobody any good. You just need to learn the lessons that need to be learned, and keep on keepin' on

Oh, and don't get mired in the Karma debate. I'm sure it seems very personal and emotional to you, but I assure you that the vast majority of your target audience don't know or care about our little developer dramas.

Good luck to you! Sorry for the rambling... caffeine overdose today